By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 10:25 am: Edit

D2 / no CDL

Ok guys, I admit it. I want to know exactly what to do in this situation: I'm half way up a steep slippery hill, can't make it all the way, and any engine revs just make my front end slip sideways.

Sliding down on the brakes just makes it swing more. Am I supposed to actually put it in reverse and drive down with the gas and no braking? That's gonna make it fast, and maybe worse right?

AAAAAAaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh...........@%!*@&#*

Dean

By Kyle on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 10:32 am: Edit

WEll dean , for starters get the damn CDL locked up. You will regret it if you dont.
Yes , on failed hill climbs its better to get it into reverse and let the engine bring it back down. You dont have to come down fast all the way. Just come down fast for the first few feet till the truck gets straight again and then add a little brake to slow its decent. In that situation the front wheels will lock much easier then the rears (NO CDL!!) so keep that in mind when doing an braking backing up. Also , its very important to know where your wheels are pointing. Many come down with them locked and turned off center. While slipping that has very little affect but if you come rocketing off a hill back wards with the wheels turned , when they get traction again at the bottom it will get pretty interesting.


Kyle

By Bud Lane (Hrrovr) on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 11:57 am: Edit

OK, here is my "perrone-ish" response. I did the big no-no myself. Got almost to the top of the 50 foot incline (wet grass) and broke traction. Tried pumping the brakes, still in forward gear, to ease it down. Ended up side-ways on a way-too-steep incline. Scared me stupider than I already was for doing it in the first place. I, too, consulted some experts. I haven't been back to the hill yet, so this isn't seasoned with real experience but it is what others have told me (Perrone reference). Reverse and, depending on the grade, let the ETC help you work down. As with any braking, as Kyle mentions, direction of the front wheels is critical. But, and this will probably invite a debate, the CDL would probably be the tool of choice.

By Greg Davis on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Dean, I actually did a comparison at MAR on a hill w/ and w/o CDL. W/ CDL, the fronts never locked and allowed me to back down event free. W/O CDL, it was very uncontrolled. Get a CDL kit. You won't regret it.

By Bud Lane (Hrrovr) on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 12:10 pm: Edit

Well, although this is the non-tech side of the board, who has opinions on the best kit. If my bride is going to let me get sliders, maybe I should try to work in a CDL kit at the same time.

Bud

By Kyle on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Because with the cdl locked it equals the brake pressure at the wheels front to back through the drive shafts... Make sense?

Kyle

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 02:18 pm: Edit

Kyle, Bud, Greg

Yes that makes good sense. You know, the first time this kind of thing happens to you it really brings the 'important' things to light, so I will get a CDL. Fortunately I was on the LR happy-day event, so no real danger.

But even with the CDL installed - can this still happen - if all four wheels are sliding down, the front can slip around? Then what? Or does THIS situation never really occur.

Dean

By Ron on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 02:25 pm: Edit

But even with the CDL installed - can this still happen - if all four wheels are sliding down, the front can slip around? Then what? Or does THIS situation never really occur.

Hehehehe

Pray. Seen a few too many people almost go over slamming on the brakes. Much rather go down too fast in reverse than barrel rolling down.


Ron

By Glenn Guinto (Glenn) on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 02:25 pm: Edit

Hey Dean,

I didn't wait for you yesterday at the trails since we had to rush home for another commitment. Besides, it looked like you were having too much fun at that slippery hill! Man, how many times did you do that? I think I got my cousin hooked up with off-roading. He's already talked to the sales person and arranged to go there Wednesday. We should have him with us the next time we have a trail ride.

I had some issues with that mud hill as well. I broke traction towards the top (which I think is the steepest part) and just glided down. I didn't use the brakes nor switched to reverse and was able to somewhat point my direction straight downward avoiding the nasty mud wall. After that, I reversed a little bit more upward that first downhill, put it in 3rd and gun it upward. I made it (barely) slinging some mud all over the spotters ( ooopss!). It was a fun day though and couldn't complain about the weather! It was also nice to see you and Deb! Later!

Glenn

By Greg Davis on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Yes, it can always happen, but much less likely if CDL engaged. E-mail me off-list for an inexpensive way to activate.

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Hey Glenn,

Yep I tried that hill several times. With momentum it was no problem. But I tried it a few times without, just crawling up, and it was no use, and my mudders were packed full at that point too.

I was not sure if I should quickly slam it in reverse, and if I do this, if I should give it some gas or let it idle down, and what about the brake? Ron is right though - I could have just reversed down, since this was a hill without any trees or rocks at the bottom.

Say hi to Maria - I look forward to our next trip. I am actively researching the swamp-road areas on the other side of the 206. I might go for a butchers this weekend or next.

Dean

Ps. HDC is out of the question right?

By Roverine on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Hi,

just caught this thread (I'm busted, shouldn't be on the computer right now ...) Very interesting subject; Everyone who was near me in the beginning of our run at Truckhaven, knows that this situation was my worst fear; Had read and heard stories of the reversing down hill nightmare when one might have otherwise made it with CDL. Now, fortunately I didn't have to back down anything (but I tried to avoid extremely loose stuff, plus no mud or anything out there). I will say this though, a few friends really had to kind of pound it into to me to stay off the brakes (my first inclination, when not used to driving the D2) and let HDL do it's job. I was amazed, it worked beautifully going down very steep inclines - I only tapped my brakes at end to avoid getting too crunched on approach and depart angles. (I still haven't trimmed front air dam, but the terrain out there is pretty forgiving). I've never had to test HDL in reverse, but now I think I'd be more inclined to put it in reverse (watch my wheels, and PRAY?). HDL compared to what I was driving before, is a wonderful thing (but have to admit, if for whatever reason it fails, may be very "interesting" experience indeed). Anyone have some actual experience with HDL in reverse down a steep hill? Maybe next time I go out, I will try something (where I hopefully won't get into trouble) to test it??

Kim

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Kim,
I take it you mean HDC?

By Roverine on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 06:58 pm: Edit

Hahahahaha, you're right Dean! Thanks for pointing it out, as usual I would have been mortified much later, if I realized it, and no one said anything ... Darn, lately, I think I just need "to be put out to pasture" ... let's see HDL ... "Hill Descent Lunge???" hehehehe ...

Kim

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 08:37 pm: Edit

hill climbing old school style:

By Roverine on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 08:58 pm: Edit

Right on! Let me tell you, I was VERY impressed with that driving ("I am not worthy, I am not worthy!")

Kim

By Kent Westbrook on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 11:50 pm: Edit

Dean and Kim,

I've been impressed with HDC too, though I've also never tried it in reverse. However, I've heard it does work in reverse (can't remember from who).

I think, Dean, what you experienced is the classic, DII, no CDL "tango"; your situation sounds exactly like what folks have discussed as one of the main reasons to get CDL activated. I went through the same thing a few months ago (except I did put it in reverse): hit the brakes because it seemed I was headed down too fast, then promptly began to slide. Scared the crap out of me! But soon as I let off the brakes it seemed everything straightened out. I'd forgotten all about the HDC, so didn't have it activated.

Kent

By Steve (Steve2) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 12:03 am: Edit

i heard the guy driving the series in the picture is a real section 8.... he's real cool most of the time - just don't mention the war....

steve

By KJ on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 10:54 am: Edit

Hey Greg,

Is there any reason why you can't post that info here? I'm interested in knowing, but if it has to be private mail, that's cool.

Karen

By Greg Davis on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Nope, here it is.

My CDL is very basic. Nothing glamorous. Probably similar to what Adam Skerritt on the DII list is doing, but I've never seen his kit so I'm just guessing.

The CDL shaft on top of the x-fer box is not in a straight line to be able to run a shaft straight up into the cab. You need to make a couple of bends. I looked everywhere for small u-joints to allow this. I used to be into RC cars, but couldn't find small u-joints any more.

Working in my garage one day I looked in my drawer and saw my flexible extension for my sockets. Perfect!

To make a long story short, I made a small bracket that fits onto the top of the shaft. You will need to hand file this as it has a unique shape. It's a shaft w/ flats on two sides. Not hard, just tedious. Once this is done, an 8mm nut will secure the bracket onto the shaft.

The bracket needs to be in the shape of a square "U". The legs of the "U" will need holes drilled in them at the top. Then, take a socket (I forgot the size, but it's a 3/8" drive-if the legs are tall enough the size won't matter) and drill corresponding holes thru the sides where the bolt would normally fit. Insert a bolt through one leg, the socket, and the other leg and secure with a lock washer and nut.

Take a 3/8" drive flexible socket and insert into the socket and weld together. Install a 6" 3/8" extension and weld together. Install a 3/8" flexible socket, and weld together. Install a 10" 3/8" extension and weld together. All of this can be assembled as a unit and then installed onto the CDL shaft.

From the inside remove the console. The tricky part is drilling the 1" hole in the right location next to the Hi-Lo shifter. The hole will be centered from front to rear and right next to the Hi-Lo boot lip. Once this hole has been drilled, you can install the linkage.

Install a rubber grommet (1" w/ .5" ID hole) over the shaft to seal out noise and stop vibration. Drop a large flat washer over the shaft and let it rest on the metal tranny hump/grommet. Then install a small hose clamp and tighten, taking the upward slack out of the linkage. If you don't do this, the linkage will drop down thru the hole because of the u-joints.

Drill a corresponding hole in the console and re-install. Install another grommet. Select a knob of your choice. The shaft will need to be trimmed according to how high you want the knob to stick up. Find a good knob. Mine is kinda cheap and will be replaced ASAP. Most knobs are made for shifting and not twisting, so they come loose from their mounting. I epoxied mine onto it's mounting collar. CDL can now be engaged by simply turning the knob clockwise 1/4 turn, and disengaged by turning counter-clockwise 1/4 turn.

A tedious and pain-in-the-ass install, but less than $25 in parts. Definitely worth it!

By Greg Davis on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Forgot to mention:

A 10mm open end wrench will fit the flats on the shaft. You can use that as a starting pattern for the hole in the bracket.

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 03:38 pm: Edit

Greg,

That's a bloody good write-up. Got any photos?

Dean

By Greg Davis on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Thanks. I can take a shot of it from inside to show the shifter, but didn't take any during construction. My digital camera was on the fritz that weekend. I'll try to post it tonight if you're interested.

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 09:20 pm: Edit

Very interested!
Dean

By KJ on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 10:22 pm: Edit

Me, too! Great write up, Greg! I'm going to print that out and try to understand it.

Karen

By Greg Davis on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Sorry. Didn't take photos last night. Will do tonight and post.

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Can you take out the center consol and show us inside?


Just kidding
Dean

By Bud Lane (Hrrovr) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 01:55 pm: Edit

Greg - I think Dean is referring to the "bloody" center console. Just in case there was any confusion. ;>)

Bud

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Actually I meant the centre console, not the center console Bloody yankee spelling! Also where can I get an aluminium-coloured knob from?

Dean

By Greg Davis on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 11:33 am: Edit

OK. I took the pictures. Now how do I post them in my message?

By Bud Lane (Hrrovr) on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 11:36 am: Edit

Greg - Just a suggestion: Send them to Ho, Axel or Kyle and have them added to your Gallery. Also, you might want to drop a post in the Tech section.

Bud

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 11:39 am: Edit

Greg,

Bud is right - put them in the tech section. But you can check out the formatting section (left) for an in-thread photo.

Dean

By OEX on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Something to remember when you are trying a hill with the disco II, the ETCshuts off as soon as you hit the brakes and that it only operates with wheel spin and loss of traction. Slippery hills are not the ETC best place.

-Before you try the hill, walk it and have your 'worst case' plan in action--what do you do if ________ happens? Check out the substrate (ground conditions) and how it changes as you move up the hill, your hill may have three or four different dirt types and therefor is like three differnt hills. Make sure what is over the top of the hill--do you even want to get up it, and if you do, do you want to get down it? Find a landing pad to reverse into if you fail the hill--important!

-Do not forget to air down! Get down to 16 psi or less depending on your tire size--increase the length of your tires ground contact.

-Put your set belt on! Slip the shoulder strap behind your back (over your head). This will allow you to move more freely to see if you are on a steep slope.

-Lock center diff if you have it.

-Select a high gear in low range (2 or 3), automatics can use third, the transmission will up shift and reduce toque and therefor lessens chance of wheel spin. (I have had to use third high before to get up long tough hills--momentum is your friend here).

-Get momentum--you want to get up the hill without wheel spin,---- spin equals stopping. Get 85% or more of your momentum on the flats before the hill. As you go up the hill, increase gas pedal pressure to keep your momentum or increase it without wheel spin. If wheel spin starts, lift up slightly on the throttle if your momentum is still good---you can often glide up the last 25% of the hill. If wheel spin is occurring and momentum is low, let it occur and your ETC will take effect--it takes a few revolutions (larger tires take longer, less revolutions per unit length). Do not keep the throttle on as you slow--it will cause the vehicle to 'walk' to one side, thus putting you slightly side to on the hill--bad! If you do not have ETC (disco I, defender, series, RR old), as you loose traction lift throttle as soon as forward progress is stopped or you begin to get walked.

- If all this does not work, you have a failed hill climb. Put your brakes on and get the vehicle into reverse fast (it maybe the only thing slowing your momentum if you start to go back down). You should now be stopped on the hill and in control. Take a second to mellow out---fast decisions means bad things, if you can slow things down, do it!. Find your center of steering (wheels pointing straight ahead), DO NOT trust your steering wheel or others outside of the vehicle, instead, look out the window and confirm it with your eyes - you could be off on entire steering wheel revolution---bad! (You will have to take off your set belt now to see your wheels, if you forgot to slip the shoulder strap behind your back---bad!), -! Make sure you have a landing place down hill (you did this when you walked the hill before you tied it).

- Now you are in reverse low ratio with CDL (if there), you have a landing pad area, you are in control, and you are sure no one is behind you.

-Let everyone know you are about to move. With both hands on the wheel, or if you use one hand have it firmly one the top center of the steering wheel, turn your body backward to see the trail. Make sure you keep your wheels perfectly straight all the way down unless something bad occurs. Now, lift off the brake and let the engine bring you down. Go down without the brakes---trust your vehicle! If speeds are very high or bouncing is starting, brake very gently (as little as can be). If braking gets you sliding, lift off on the brake and let the vehicle roll straight again. If this does not stop the sliding, give it a little gas! Giving it gas will push it straight down the hill (if you did not turn the wheel--you should not have).

Brake when the hill starts to level out—its better to go sideways here than on the face of the ‘CLIFF!’

-This should get you down--it is better to be going too fast straight backwards, than to be going slow side on a hill!

-Some hills are very long and slippery, a failed hill here may include cadence braking, this aids going downhill, backwards or forwards---on brake, slid,-- off brake, steer. Repeated as you go back--it is like a slow ABS action. You cannot steer while braking, but it may still slow you down, so steer when not braking, get back on line and then brake---an so on and so on.

-Remember HDC and ETC do not function with the brakes on.

-Remember that CDL slows only two wheel--one front and one rear (unless you have lockers). As the engine torque slows the wheel too much they too will loose traction---so give little gas helps wheels catch up with hill decent speed; this keeps you straight. Straight is everything with a failed hill climb.

-Remember, the bigger the mess you leave the harder the backward journey will be, and the harder it is for the next try. If you only have one chance to get up the hill, maybe the hill should not be attempted.

This all takes practice---have someone you know show you how it is done.

----------------------------
Once again too long winded in the response category---sorry.

Cheers, OEX

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 07:57 am: Edit

OEX,

Thanks a bunch for thay epic discussion - very well written and clear.

Dean