By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 12:24 pm: Edit

Does anyone know what a "good" plug wire should ohm out at?

By Ron on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 12:27 pm: Edit

Resistance...................................164 ohm per cm, 5K ohm per ft. + 10%.

This does not make sense to me (keep in mind my electircal system) but I found it on the Magnecor site if it helps

Ron

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 12:32 pm: Edit

Agree, good site: http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/main.htm


Note, the special for Land Rovers.....

-L

By Jon Williams (Jonw) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 12:42 pm: Edit

...or you could get the Bosch Premium magnacore wires from AutoZone that are essentially the same design as the Magnecore wires, but only cost $49.99. They work great for me. Plus they have a lifetime warranty (but Magnecore may also; don't know)

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 12:43 pm: Edit

Leslie,

Magnecor site is full of bullshit. I was wondering about all rover owners so fond of their products, and spent about an hour reading all the baloney they put there pretending it was physics.
My final verdict was - they make as good ignition wire as any OEM or aftermarket, no better a bit.
It looks like Magnecor wires are some sort of an urban myth among rover owners.
If you want _real_ improvement (which will only show on a worn-out old engine), use MSD or other low-resistance wires. Sure you know why i know

peter

By Ron on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 12:49 pm: Edit

"they make as good ignition wire as any OEM or
aftermarket, no better a bit."

I disagree. OEM is crap.

Ron

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 01:01 pm: Edit

OEM works. Magnecor works. what's the difference?

But I wouldn't buy any Magnecor products only because I saw them making wrong and misleading statements.

I did my little homework, and the advantages of low resistance wires were very obvious. So I spent $80 on a generic set of MSD 8.5mm wires, and it was the best money i ever invested in my beat up old jeep. My rovers are in much better condition, so they wouldn't benefit as much.

peter

By gp (Garrett) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 01:02 pm: Edit

have to say i was not impressed with OEM. had about 15K on them and they were arcing and throwing my check engine light. magenecors on there now and no code issues for me.

magnecor=
OEM=

By Ron on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 01:03 pm: Edit

OEM works. Magnecor works. what's the difference?

Length of time they work.

How they work when dirty and especially wet.

How well the connections are made and sealed.

Low resistance wires on a LR are useless. It will help nothing. No more performance. No benefit.

Ron

PS what statements do you take issue with?

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 01:07 pm: Edit

all this BS about skin effect. either they don't know shit about it, or they do know - but then they are making a false statement intentionally.

again, it doesn't mean that their wires are good or bad, but i don't want to support a company that makes false claims.

FWIW, on my disco OEM wires are just fine at 95kmi. there are some shitty blue-colored wires on the rangie that need to go.

peter

By lynden on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 01:17 pm: Edit

I'll just add that I bought a set of accell 8mm cut your own length and installed them 2 weeks ago w/ autolite platinum plugs. The disco runs like a top and I think I can feel a little pickup in her. Haven't run through a full tank so don't know if I made up any mileage... wishful thinking!
Lynden
PS they're cool wires because they're red!!! lol

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 01:35 pm: Edit

Peter,

I originally thought the same.... why the heck Magnecor??


Magnecor costs less than genuine Rover wires.

Magnecor makes sets that replace the original Rover wires... EXACT same length... I easily matched which wire goes where.... NO OTHER aftermarket company (MSD, Accel, etc.) makes wires to match a stock Land Rover V8.

Lifetime guarantee, genuine doesn't have that.

EVEN IF the performance was IDENTICAL to stock, they're still a better deal... cheaper than OEM, lifetime guarantee, dead-on fit.... They do seal better, too...

OH, also..... not all blue wires out there are Magnecor.... I've seen some blue crappy junk on things that have come in from the UK... definitely NOT the same as the Magnecors....


A big thing for me was that this is a non-Rover-specific company THAT recognizes Land Rovers! Not only do they make wire sets for Rovers, they discount them directly to Rover owners.

And, they're fine. Did my Rover cut 2 seconds in the 1/4 mile stretch?? Did my gas mileage improve by 2 mpg?? NO... I didn't expect such, either. I was looking for a replacement set of wires that will last longer than 30k miles, have at least equal performance, and ended up finding some that have a lifetime guarantee, for less money.

THAT'S WHY I like Magnecor....


-L

PS: And the blue is sexy...

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 01:52 pm: Edit

come on Leslie,
the same can be said for many other aftermarket ignition wire manufacturers.

and what's the point - the company recognizes land rover, but boost its sales with false advertisement.

and - i'd rather spend $80 on a generic set of MSD wires than whatever magnecor wants for its _exact_ fit deal.

peter

By Ron on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 01:53 pm: Edit

P M

can you link the exact stuff that is wrong and explain it?

Thanks
Ron

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:15 pm: Edit

I didn't catch anything false in it...

Albeit, I'm an engineering geologist, not an electrical engineer, nor an electrical physicist/ theoretician....

What parts of it I didn't get, I took to be more of an analogous example than misrepresentation...

Explanation?

-L

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:22 pm: Edit

http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm

this is a pure BS - begin quote:
--------------------------------------
What is not generally understood (or is ignored) is that as a result of the laws of electricity, the potential
45,000 plus volts (with alternating current characteristics) from the ignition coil (a pulse type transformer)
does not flow through the entire the length of fine wire used for a spiral conductor like the 1 volt DC voltage
from a test ohmmeter, but flows in a magnetic field surrounding the outermost surface of the spiral windings
(skin effect). The same skin effect applies equally to the same pulsating flow of current passing through
carbon and solid metal conductors.
----------------end quote----------------------

this is such a pile-up of physical terms' BS that it would be difficult to pick apart and tell what's right and what's wrong.

then, Magnecor goes on to the "false horsepower gain claims" ramble, which is also a mix of a correct and incorrect statements.

I just checked the MSD site, to see if there's any thing i could stumble upon, and found none. Here it is -
http://www.msdignition.com/1wires.htm

peter

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:22 pm: Edit

PM -

You'd rather pay $80.00 for a cut it yourself wire or a generic SB V-8 wire than the proper lengths in a good quality wire for less $$ ??

Huh... I don't get it......

I've got the Magnacors also on the Disco and like 'em - can't say they're better than any other good quality wire - but they do fit well and are not that expensive.

Also - I doubt your OEM wires (or any other wire for that matter) are still fine at 95K miles - it is a wear part......

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Peter,

I'm picturing a magnetic field, ala the Earth's magnetic field... ie., compass needles don't point to the north pole, they align themselves with the field....

I'm still not seeing a problem....


MSD: I'll agree, they have lower resistance... but ... can a Rover engine make use of that much lower of a resistance??


-L

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:37 pm: Edit

this cracked me up -
_______________________________________________
Warning!
Unlike many web sites, this MAGNECOR Race Wires Technical Information Site contains actual useful information.
_______________________________________________

LOL...

Bill -
you could buy a set of Accels, and swear by them just as well.
Do you have _real_ experience to tell that - yes, Magnecor wires made a day-or-night difference as compared to OEM or any other aftermarket brand? I doubt it. Have you ever hooked up a scope to your ignition wire, or did any other "objective" measurement?
I am willing to bet that if i change your plug wires overnight without telling you, you won't notice until the next oil change. Or, if i match the color, never at all.
The same applies to any ignition wire, if you have a well tuned engine in top running condition.
But, as your engine wears down, especially in cold climate, you will pay more attention to what you use.

I don't care about the "seat of the pants" feelings. I know exactly what makes one set of wires different from the other, and that's the reason I am ready to pay extra $40 for a set of wires I still need to work on to make fit.

and yes, my OEM wires are fine.
what do you think makes an electrical wire to wear?

peter

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Heat, mostly... oil, mud, water, they don't help. Splash through a puddle and they get coated, the stuff bakes on, then cooks off. Even when clean, they're essentially getting cooked in the engine compartment. Over and over.

-L

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Leslie,

the answer is the mileage on your engine, and something like a number of engine starts at 32F or colder.

that's why i don't need anything for the Disco, but will need soon for the rangie.

peter

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:43 pm: Edit

San Diego, zero cold-weather starts, eh?


I've already put 68k on the odo on this '99 Disco... the stock wires weren't happy when I hit 40k...


-L

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Leslie,

okay, they get cooked and cooled off. why would they stop being conductors?

peter

By Ron on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Because the insulation wears off and they arc.

Ron

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:47 pm: Edit

Repeated cycles on cooked and cooled age the insulation on the wires, thus allowing the internal materials to break down... copper wires have a nasty tendency to turn green, etc., where the wire is exposed to the atmosphere, eh? (reminding me of the corrosion holes down the ide of my Series's tub, except a 'pretty' color ).


-L

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:53 pm: Edit

how does the insulation wear off?

i mean, if you take your time asking these questions to yourself, and thinking of what is happening, you will get a bit ahead of the crowd.
unfortunately, most people just "copy and paste"
relying on something they heard or read before.

it amused me a bit when, in some recent thread,
someone referred to his own sales literature as a source of objective comparison between two products, one of which he sells.

peter

By lynden on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:55 pm: Edit

By the way, I bought my set for $35, yeah I had to cut them myself but it was pretty easy. For $35 I'll replace them every couple summer's and have a good running rig all the time. I don't think that just because they're lifetime guaranteed you won't ever have to replace them, wires wear out and need to be replaced... just my thoughts.
Lynden

By Ron on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:56 pm: Edit

PM,

It cracks and the oil etc. eats away at it. It may look okish but spray some water and it will arc. Try running old wires after soaking them in water and see how far you get.

Ron

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Most insulation materials become brittle with repeated heating cycles.

Thus, ingress of atmospheric conditions is possible... air and moisture... thus, deterioration of the innards of the wire begins.


-L

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 03:14 pm: Edit

how deterioration of the innards of the wire makes it worse?

i guess i can keep asking the same question forever. let me answer - its resistance increases.
and the energy delivered to the spark plug decreases, contrary to what magnecor tries to tell you.

insulation wear? of course. it vibrates around, chafes on the metallic parts, cracks from repeated heating and cooling, etc.
so, what would you do? make it thicker, to decrease stress, more abrasion-resistant, and use silicone to make it temperature-stable.

there may be different brands of wires that have low resistance, very good EMI suppression, and mechanical properties that you mentioned. I only found MSD 8.5mm Super wires fitting this bill.

peter

By Ron on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 03:18 pm: Edit

PM

Can you show me anything that says a rover engine benefits from low resistance wires?

I just don't see it helping much if at all.

My reason for Magnecor is that they seem to hold up better and therefore give smoother performance that the crap OEM as they don't seem to arc. Plus the connectors are A1 as are the boots.

Ron

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 03:21 pm: Edit

Magnecor doesn't have as low of a resistance as MSD but it beats OEM, matches MSD on suppression and physical longevity (if not beats).

And costs less, and fits - right out of the box.

And a stock Rover 4.0 isn't going to benefit from resistivity much lower than OEM.

Value, win goes to Magnecor....

-L

By Discosaurus (Discosaurus) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 03:22 pm: Edit

Actually.........

They may have a point concerning skin effect. A rapid rise-time pulse such as what comes out of a modern electronic (non-coil) ignition has a lot of high frequency component. The higher the frequency of an EM-wave, the more it's confined to the "skin" of the conductor. So, a large surface area conductor or a conductor with lower I^2R losses on it's surface is a better conductor.

Which probably all means zip-point-zero when it comes to the performance of a stinkin' plug wire...

keith
discosaurus

By Discosaurus (Discosaurus) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Besides, a real low-loss plug wire will do wonders for your radio reception

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 03:31 pm: Edit

Keith, you're the microwave guy, you know about the skin effect.

first, it has nothing to do with ignition wires.
second, it makes the resistance of the wire increase at high frequencies, so whatever the wire's resistance to DC is, it ain't gonna get any lower for a pulse or high-frequency AC. Again, here Magnecor is in shit. They do have a point, but this point is not what they claim.

it just amused me that among rover owners having magnecor wires is like rancho shocks among jeepers. both are over-rated, but a "must-have" anyways

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 03:34 pm: Edit

FWIW, i checked the aircraft VHF band reception with a handheld Bearcat - it was better under the hood of the jeep with MSD ignition and wires than in front of my desktop PC. Also, the jeep never had a smallest hint of ignition noise or reception problems, unlike both of my rovers with stock or cheap aftermarket wires.

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 03:37 pm: Edit

PM - if your argument was for solid core racing wires I'd agree (and yes I do have experience with those running on magneto systems) - but not only does the insulation give it up as pointed out above by Leslie and Ron, but a suppression core wire is not solid and over time due to heat and current lose it's ability to conduct well. No, you will never lose the conductivity 100% (unless the core breaks completely), but your resistance will continually increase to a point where your ignition system is forced to work more than it should (hence my original question about measured resistance of a suppression core wire in good shape). These little 4.0's need all the help they can get, so why make a portion of your ignition system work harder than it has too? Sure your OEM wires still get spark to the plugs after 95K miles, but just not nearly as well as they once did.

The point of this is not to argue who's wire is best, but it is that plug wires are a maintenance item......

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 03:46 pm: Edit

Bill, my argument was never for solid core racing wires. they are illegal on the street, and for a good reason (see Keith's comment above).

have you ever looked at the ignition wire's core?
for all except the shittiest and cheapest wires, it is a single-strand wire wound around the center core, which may or may not contain any ferro-magnetic material. The winding makes the wire suppressing EM interference.

MSD low-resistance wires - 30 Ohms per foot - have better EM suppression than OEM at ~5000 ohms per fot.

you may or may not lose 100% of conductivity. Actually, the wire will work even if the core strand breaks apart, in which case it will have to arch over the gap in the core.

then, your ignition box doesn't care a little bit whether the wire is old or new, and old wires do not make it work any harder. it's just the plugs that can't create the spark when the wires go bad.

now, i don't argue with the statement that ignition wires are a maintenance item, it is all this talk about Magnecor wires being superior to anything else cracks me up.

peter

By Discosaurus (Discosaurus) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 03:54 pm: Edit

Besides, it's not all that BS about skin-effect, AC vs DC resistance measurements, blah-blah-blah.

The real meat is how weatherproof the thing is. You can throw the best mil-spec un-obtainium wire in a crappy jacket with bad boots and have a useless wire in months. You gotta protect those connections to the end contacts or it's out-the-window.

By jm on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 04:01 pm: Edit

I paid 80 for the 8.5 mm magnacor racing wires. When they are cut to fit why should I buy cut to fit wires?

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 04:12 pm: Edit

Jm, the Rover can't really make any better use of the race wires over the regular 7 or 8mm ones...

I spent $58.38, shipping included, and they arrived at my door in a day.


I'm happy w/ 'em, and they were less than OEM, and better than OEM.

Yeah, MSD has a lower resistance, but for more $$, on a street engine, that you have to cut-to-fit, why?


-L

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 08:02 pm: Edit

All this BS got me curious, so I mesured the resistance in a few wires on the Disco and RR:

Disco: (#1 plug wire checked)

OEM (Lucas) wires w/ 22,600 miles - 9.16K ohm
Magnacor 8.5 mm wires w/ 38,400 miles - 4.42K ohm

RR: (distributor #7 wire (approx same length as Disco distributorless #1 wire)

Unknown blue wires with ?? miles - 10.44K ohm


Conclusions: who knows - all I know that the OEM wires suck and I have to put a new set on the RR

Oh ya - OEM Disco wires at 22,600 miles showed cracks in the jacket in several spots.

I'd be curious about those OEM wires at 95K miles??

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 08:09 pm: Edit

nice and clean. no cracks. disco doesn't miss a beat.

peter

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 09:50 pm: Edit

Does anyone trust their cracked old wires? Ok, wet your hands and grab hold of one. Or do you think the insulation quality IS important now after all?
Dean

By Ron on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 09:26 am: Edit

Bill, my argument was never for solid core racing wires. they are illegal
on the street, and for a good reason (see Keith's comment above).

Huh?

I have solid cores on my "racing" series LR.




Magnecore rules as proven in Bill B's resistance test
Ron

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 10:17 am: Edit

Ron

Exactly - what I really want to see is some real world measurements from other folks - not manufacturers claims and not just a peak under the hood saying - Gee - they LOOK ok......


Also - as far as being "illegal on the street" - I guess Peter never had much fun as a teenager Nostalgia for the "good ole days" running 14" wrinkle walls on a daily driver!

By p m on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 12:15 pm: Edit

bill,

i don't give much shit about the legality of solid core wires, i look at it as an EE who's battling EMI for considerable amount of his time.

guess a teenager can't afford good low-resistance wires, so solid core's the choice.
even with solid core you can do good - use the large-diameter coax cable. I found even the standard RG-59's insulation stands up to 40kV. If you ground the shield, you will get a capacitor parallel to the plug, -> more spark energy.

and yes, i've used coax cable as ignition wire quite a few times in my life.

peter

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Peter - nah I was just funnin' about the things done as a teenager - sometimes for $$ sake - sometimes for the "coolness" factor, and sometimes just for the hell of it - ie: street/strip cars that became strip only, but were still driven with tags daily - something to be said for those days of little responsibility

By p m on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 01:39 pm: Edit

i still have a piece of coax with ignition connectors crimped on in my parts bin

peter
p.s. the only fun i had as a teenager was to watch my dad teach my mom how to drive, and that was a POS like a bug, with an air-cooled V4 in the rear.
that was a thrill ride, believe me.

By Discosaurus (Discosaurus) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 03:37 pm: Edit

...yeah, I run across those solid-core guys all the time, on their way to the strip out west from my house. I can hear those bastards coming for a mile on my radio...zzzzz-zzzzzzzzzzz-zzzzz

It used to be OK, since they were all driving some kind of 60's RumbleMaster special. Now, it's all rice-burner shit with thump-thump stereo's to go with the increase-your-aero-drag-but-look-cool body tack-on's.

I just LOVE their looks when they get smoked by my Audi...silently

Anybody remember Packard 440 ??

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 03:50 pm: Edit

400 Pontiac in my Trans Am years ago...
My best friend had a 360 Interceptor in a Plymouth Fury ex-cop car.... Couple of other friends had a GTO, a Nova, a Camaro, a Formula... we were kinda stupid many times over...
My brother still has a '73 RS Camaro w/ a 383ci in it... VERY dangerous car.....


-L

By Scott Bowden (Scott_Bowden) on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 09:28 am: Edit

I purchased an aftermarket set of wires from a Rover mail order company. My engine ran better because the factory wires were damaged/worn out. Then my radio had slight engine noise. I put up with it for a while. When I found out about Magnecor wires, I read the site info., talked to them on the phone, and bought the wires. So far the benefits I have discovered; already made and cut to length, good thick boots, soft silicon cover since install (18,000 miles ago), no water splash problems (good seal), and the best thing is no engine radio noise. I'm sure there are other brands that will offer these types of benefits but I feel that wires are a good product at a fair price. What is the value of already cut and crimped wires? Only each person can answer this question for their own preference.

By p m on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 12:23 pm: Edit

>My brother still has a '73 RS Camaro w/ a 383ci in it... VERY dangerous car.....

My brother still has a '80 Cherokee w/ a 401ci in it... VERY dangerous car..... many a bystander had this feeling

peter