By r0ver4x4 on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 11:04 pm: Edit

does anyone have one of these things or know anyone that has one.....they seem like the best thing you could do other than lift and lockers and axles............

By Mike D1 on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 11:12 pm: Edit

If it's the same as an "under drive" people in our Rover club have said bad things about it. Lots of problems.

By phil on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 11:22 pm: Edit

yeah its the same thing......they sounded like they were awesome..o well........

By reagle on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 08:14 am: Edit

rOver4x4,

The ECR crawler boxes are very impressive mechanisms!

Ryan Eagle

By phil on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 10:07 am: Edit

well Miked1 says they stink....do you know anyone thats got one how reliable is it...I could see one in the future of my truck or 3k after the lift..r0over4x4

By phil on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 10:13 am: Edit

r0ver4x4

By ZPukajlo on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 10:16 pm: Edit

Just what is wrong with it? Is it the design or how it functions? Does it mess up the t-case or driveline in some way? An inquiring mind would like to know.

Zane

By r0ver4x4 on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 10:36 pm: Edit

East Cost ROvers thinks that they are wonderfulI dont know I am trying to find out shit on them so I wont have to get one...they seem like one of the best upgrades for a rover if you like to rock crawl and all

r0ver4x4

By ZPukajlo on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 10:48 pm: Edit

I occasionally climb over some rocks, but nothing like what most people on this board do. I would see it as an asset when coming down a rather steep incline.

Zane

By Craig on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 10:49 pm: Edit

rOver4x4-
Have you considered just replacing the low range gearset in your t-box? GBR has new gears to lower your low range by 30%(40 if you can live with straight cut gears and are willing to modify the case). This way everything else stays the same. If I understand correctly, the ECR unit(which is basically an Ashcroft underdrive) has clearance issues on some applications.
Craig

By Craig on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 10:51 pm: Edit

More info on the underdrive at

www.autoconv.com

Craig

By r0ver4x4 on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 11:32 pm: Edit

I have read alot about it...I wold like it cause it wouldnt mess up my road riding .........wouldnt new gears do that..I wouldnt wwanna mess with the gears in a rover t case just seems like to much and all....r0ver4x4

By Mike D1 on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 12:15 am: Edit

If you are serious about buying one, email the president of our club at norcalrover.org. Look under contact. He told me there have been serious problems with them. I am going for 4:10 gears. That should be lowwww enough for most all rock trails.

Good luck

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 12:23 am: Edit

http://www.4wdworld.com.au/products/maxidrive/

some info on the lower low range that bill sells

rd

By Mike D1 on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 08:58 pm: Edit

Nice site, but I need gears to offset my 235/85s on the highway too, not just for 1 mph. over rocks. I think this is the case for most on this board.

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 10:15 am: Edit

well mike, you can go 4.10's in the Diffs and use the lower low range gears in the transfer case. it's not a bad thing... he'll if i has some cash i'd do it.


anyway , i thought the tread was about lower low ranges... thus "crawler box" title

rd

By r0ver4x4 on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 10:32 am: Edit

nah crawler box as the thing that hooks up to your stock t-case giving you about a 100:1 low range...lower with hihger higher pinion gears..but with out affecting your road riding

r0er4x4

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 12:58 pm: Edit

right... i'm giving an alternate to the crawl box.

if you throw 235/85 tires on and then get the 4.10 gears you are lower than you started.

then change the Low Range ONLY in the T-case. you are going to go WAY lower than stock. not 100:1 but fucking low enough to make life easier..

maxidrive says 56:1 compared to stock, but again you are lower than stock if you get the 4.10's

so it's prob like 58:1 or some shit...

i'm not just stating this for you mike, but also for the people out there lurking. so dont think i'm harping on the subject.

later
rd

By r0ver4x4 on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 06:47 pm: Edit

ok thanks alot for the info I think that I just might have to work on teh low range I didnt know that it wouldnt effect your road riden but i guess it wouldnt at all thanks for the info

r0ver4x4

By p m on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 07:09 pm: Edit

do all of you guys have manual trannies?

ever tried to go down the VERY STEEP hill in low range and wondered "why the hell do i have to fight these brakes?"

it is even worse in reverse, after a failed hillclimb.

what do you think will happen when you change from ~40:1 low range gearing to 100:1? You'll break your seat mounts trying to stop the truck.

very often 1mph is ways too fast.

peter

By r0ver4x4 on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 07:15 pm: Edit

if you have a crawler box you can still have the stock low range if you want it you pull up a lever to mkae the crawler bow work.yeah it would be alot to handle 100:one the loswet thing I drove was a cruiser with 4:11 stock low which I am not sure what it is and a SM420..the tranny had a 7:1 franny gear..thats low as shit for a tranns I like the crawler bow though..I think if I do anything it will be different gears in the t case though.........
r0ver4x4

By p m on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 07:39 pm: Edit

SM420 is a grindbox, and it also has pretty low reverse, so you can actually use compression braking instead of engine kicking you downhill with an automatic.

hell, on one hill i kept the truck in the 1st low, had both feet on the brake, and it kept rolling back. makes me shiver to think of what would have happened if i put it into reverse low...

peter

By r0ver4x4 on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 08:29 pm: Edit

sm420 is bad ass..well you shoudl made it up the hill...I have never been faced with backing down a steep hill we usually make it up most of what we do.... I dont know much about having to back down steep hills I dont think I would put my truck in low four and reverse i think that would help slow down...what is when backing down and your breaks locked up and you started slipping back down wouldnt that be bad......
r0ver4x4

By Hendrik Behrmann on Monday, October 29, 2001 - 03:20 pm: Edit

Hi there,

maybe there is another ALTERNATIVE to adding an underdrive to the tranny.
KAM-Differential in UK offer "LOW-RANGE"-GEARS which substitute the ones that rover supplied with the LT230 t-case.
They will not make that much difference (because the size of the casing limits the size to which the gear can be enlarged. But obviously as strong as the original, no extra housing, less money to spend.
Try the website of KAM (I dont know the URL, but you could follow the link-section on the www.defenderland.de - website).
regards, Hendrik

By p m on Monday, October 29, 2001 - 03:56 pm: Edit

r0ver4x4,

this is to illustrate the hill that i made once, but didn't make the second time:

this is how tall the sucker is,
http://www.t-r-j.com/BigBear/01Apr01/keith01.jpg

and this - how steep:
http://www.t-r-j.com/BigBear/01Apr01/79wt08.gif
http://www.t-r-j.com/BigBear/BBFF2000/yj01.gif

i'm not saying this is the biggest MoFo hill ever conquered by a human in a 4x4, but the very last thing i needed is a crawler box in reverse (with automatic).
I was backing down in the 1st low, and the rear wheels fell into the hole. So i had to use the reverse, with both feet on the brakes. The sucker flew backwards giving me a whole new meaning of OH SHIT!!! feeling. I killed the engine, and rolled all the way down without power steering or brakes, trying to avoid open-mouthed idiots and their trucks at the bottom of the hill.

peter

By Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) on Monday, October 29, 2001 - 05:14 pm: Edit

thats awesome

By p m on Monday, October 29, 2001 - 06:16 pm: Edit

i first heard of the crawler box on one LRCSD meeting; i was interested at first, then someone gently reminded that nearly all of us had automatics...

peter

By Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) on Monday, October 29, 2001 - 06:18 pm: Edit

ot works with autos just have to have an lt230 t-case

By ZPukajlo on Monday, October 29, 2001 - 09:29 pm: Edit

So its not recommended for use with the auto. Any particular reason why?

Zane

By p m on Monday, October 29, 2001 - 09:50 pm: Edit

okay Zane, scroll back to the beginning of the thread.

in short - clutch, unlike torque converter, doesn't offer torque multiplication.
it doesn't matter jack if you have lt230 or any other transfer case, lt230 making things worse by its low low range ratio.

peter

By Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) on Monday, October 29, 2001 - 10:08 pm: Edit

what ar eyou talking about

By Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) on Monday, October 29, 2001 - 10:11 pm: Edit

you shit will still have a 100:1 crawl I dont see how that couldnt benefit

By p m on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 - 12:15 pm: Edit

philip,

if you don't see how 100:1 crawl ratio can make things worse with an automatic, i can't help you.

as i said before, the make of a transfer case doesn't make any difference.

have fun

peter

By Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 07:16 pm: Edit

please tell me how it would not be of any benefit

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 09:28 pm: Edit

Phillip,

When you put your automatic-tranny into "drive", all you have to do is take your foot off the brake... it will start rolling forward, right? But, with stock gearing, you can keep the brake on, and it won't go anywhere.

Change to a 100:1 ratio, then try it.... as soon as you put it in gear, you're moving.... and stepping on the brakes won't stop you.... it WILL move, it'll push right through.... that's what Peter was talking about, almost braking a seat trying to brake with that ratio... especially when you are on a hill-climb...

With a manual tranny, all you have to do is push in the clutch, and the engine isn't trying to drag you off when you don't want it to...

Make sense?

-L

By Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 09:37 pm: Edit

yeah

By p m on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 09:40 pm: Edit

shit, it always takes a geologist to explain shit...

peter

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 10:02 pm: Edit

LOL!




-L

By Lcubed (Lcubed) on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 10:07 pm: Edit

'Change to a 100:1 ratio, then try it.... as soon as you put it in gear, you're moving.... and stepping on the brakes won't stop you.... it WILL move, it'll push right through.... that's what Peter was talking about, almost braking a seat trying to brake with that ratio... especially when you are on a hill-climb...'

wouldn't that be the appropriate time to move ye olde gear selector to 'N'??

i knew there was a good reason to get a 5 speed in my disco...

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 10:10 pm: Edit

Hmmmm....
Spend all of that money for the 100:1 ratio, then have to slap it into neutral....

Or, don't change ratios in the first place...



-L

By p m on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 10:13 pm: Edit

Lcubed,

read more on failed hillclimbs, and you'll figure out why neutral may not be your best option.

and leslie's right, of course

peter

By Craig on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 10:17 pm: Edit

anything deeper than 60:1 in a Rover is pointless. I have driven both autobox and manual d90's and discos with the GCR 30% underdriven lowrange gearsets, (some with 3.54 r&p and some w/4.10's). It was all the gear you would ever want.
my .02
Craig

By Craig on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 10:20 pm: Edit

Sorry- I meant GBR not GCR (Great Basin Rovers)
Craig

By Lcubed (Lcubed) on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 10:29 pm: Edit

'read more on failed hillclimbs, and you'll figure out why neutral may not be your best option. '

wouldn't that be the appropriate time to select 'R'??

at least, that's what i do with the manual box..
(and yes, i have been in vehicles that failed hill climbs, both as
driver and passenger)


i thought he was complaining about not being able to stop right after
selecting a forward gear.


from the trend of this thread, i'd conclude the ultralow gear available
on the mog shouldn't be used in an automatic. aren't the new U400's and U500's all automatics??

By p m on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 10:49 pm: Edit

dunno about the mogs. You mean the ones that are coming in the U.S. as Freightliners?

R with an automatic - check my post above (with links), see the pics, and tell me honestly if you'd use reverse in that situation.

most rigs reach the limit of traction (nearly at any surface) with gearing near 40:1 at the flat surface, much less at an angle or anything other than slickrock or asphalt. The reason to get lower gears is not to get more torque at the wheels, but slow down the motion. In automatics, torque converter serves this purpose, with a drawback of limited engine braking ability. Getting super-low gears in a slush-box'ed rig doesn't change its ability to be driven at just a hair above 0 mph, but makes you fight against your engine in steep downhill situations.

peter

By Lcubed (Lcubed) on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 11:30 pm: Edit

'R with an automatic - check my post above (with links), see the pics, and tell me honestly if you'd use reverse in that situation. '

to tell the truth, i didn't know that you could reverse in 1st low with
a slush box (i normally drive a 5 speed stick offroad).

wouldn't the underdrive combined with R be the proper selection once
you got the rear wheels in the hole, since you would have more engine
braking available than without the underdrive??

in the case of a 5 speed, R is definitely the right choice.
R with a crawler box is probably an even better choice.
N is just plain scary.

(i had the misfortune of being a passenger in a 5 speed disco which
failed a hill climb where the driver neglected to select R and we free wheeled quite a way to the bottom of the hill.)

By ZPukajlo on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 12:56 am: Edit

Hey Peter,

The info that you gave was very good. I'm use to driving 4 and 5 speeds. The ZF is my first auto in a 4WD vehicle. Anyway, how much does the converter multiply the gearing by? Would it be 1.5, 2 or 2.5 times? Again thanks!

Zane

By p m on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 01:13 pm: Edit

Zane, it depends on rpm. The TC's torque multiplication is at its max at stall, and it is about 2.5. When it locks up, it is 1.

You can see how the automatic with a crawler box can really screw things up.

Lcubed, speaking of that hill, on the pic when the front wheel came off the ground, engine stalled.
Without the engine, I couldn't even hold the jeep steady - it kept rolling down with me nearly breaking off the seat mounts. My only worry was to restart the MoFo, at least to get brake assist. I also found it very nice to back down in the 1st low - it would easily roll with the right foot off the gas, allowing for good directional control. I was also able to force it to slide into the ruts by a gentle throttle application (it would lock up solid at ~1200 rpm).
My other worry at this hill was oil pressure. My mechanical gauge showed solid 0 near the top of the hill, meaning that the pickup tube went completely dry.

peter

By Drew on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 06:29 pm: Edit

let me start off by saying i don't have or know anyone that has a crawler box. However i don't agree about what is being said about them i don't see any reason why they shouldn't work behind an auto tranny. at idle the T.C. shouldn't have enough torque multiplication even in low low range to over come the brakes, if it does i would have your brakes checked. as far as failed hill climbs R as a rule of thumb should be used.