By Brian Jackson (Nerover) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 06:10 pm: Edit

I've just read through the archives about all the rear drop jazz and know all of the uptravel issues as well. Here's my question: Why are you all so obsessed with rear drop when your front axle hardly moves?

Here's my opinion: In this pic, John has enough rear "drop or flex". I like that set-up of good travel, but not extreme. http://www.expeditionexchange.com/retainers/DCP_1151.jpg

Now for front flex...you need balance. The B-S ers truck is balanced in this pic because of the excellent (relatively, considering radius arms) front articulation. http://www.rovertym.com/wheeling/img105x.jpg

Not picking on anyone (sorry Tom, you had the best pic to use :-) ), but he has great rear flex, but the front is stiff as hell. Look how leaned his truck is here. http://www.discoweb.org/tompearson/leftfront2.jpg

That's a truck that will lay on it's side well before a balanced one. The trick to performance is balance. Flex the front like the rear, otherwise you're gonna get tippy and only *look* cool.

Personally, I'm done with the rear. A bottom eye mount, stock upper mount and home-made straps on my Rovertym springs with 2" spacers (the spacers are going soon, but they were essentially working as bumpstops since I used the stock upper mount. My uptravel and stuffage in the rear is excellent.

Now for the front. My 9207s aren't cuttin it. even with extensions and some eperimental RTE stuff, I'm limited by shock extended length. When I've run with out front shocks, the performance is phenomenal.

So Guys/Gals, what do you think? Please no three link debate here, just theory.

By John on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 07:00 pm: Edit

Well, in Toms pic his rear wheels are flat on the ground so he isnt getting help to his front springs by his rear opposite tire stuffed which would transfer weight to his front spring helping his truck to sit more level. The rest is a couple of stealth things...lol. Its a game of gaining quarter inches. Call me...and lets see what we learn with other posts and thoughts.

By Clint on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Balance is good.
If you are limited by shock extended length, but you have plenty of compression left,
then spacing up the bottom mount would utilize the current shock to its fullest.
If you want more travel, I would try to put in taller shock towers and run a longer shock.
You may have to move the airbox.

By Brian Jackson (Nerover) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 09:07 pm: Edit

Thanks Clint for the ideas, but I'm pretty much set with what I'll be doing. I was interested in hearing from the people that go for huge rear-end flex without thinkin much about the front...possibly assuming it can't be done.

John, I'll shoot you an email or a call..we got some good news.

Brian

By Kyle on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 10:50 pm: Edit

Yes , arms longer , towers shorter . arms narrower , bushings worked a little. etc etc , sort of like what I like doing with the stock stuff.

Kyle

By Brian Jackson (Nerover) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Mr. Stocker himself! But that's no Genuwine wench on dat bumper Billy Bob!

Brian

By Shane (Shane) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 11:01 pm: Edit

Why not add a hinged and pinned radius arm?

By Kyle on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 11:09 pm: Edit

Because you dont really need to Shane. All the drop you can want is there. You just have to do allot of little things to get the drop you want. I consider that an art......


Kyle

By Kyle on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 11:10 pm: Edit

Gettin more stock every day Brian . Just got the LR front skid plate for it today. Maybe there needs to be a super stock class for the Disco

Kyle

By Brian Jackson (Nerover) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 12:37 am: Edit

yes, or pro-street, or maybe open stock?

hehe
Brian

you're pushing the limits of evry class Kyle!

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 10:35 am: Edit

lotta flex, no flex, some flex, who flex, who cares?

you will find that there are millions of little variables out there. like john said, my pic is totally different from a physics and geometry perspective as his. sometimes perfect balance is the perfect key. sometimes all around stiffness is, sometimes more front flex than rear would be great, sometimes my rear massive flex has save my ass and kept me level -- dropping down a steep incline, turning, and my front end flat as the rear stuffed up and the truck stayed pefectly flat. a jeep with massive front flex and little rear was totally on a huge angle.

in the past i did the KKC and compared my truck retained (more equal articulation) to not retained. didn't really notice a big difference. made it up the same stuff both ways. rear "felt" tighter, but I seemed to do the rover wheelie more easily. i dunno.

i will admit a dirty little secret. i enjoy the amount of flex when the eyebrows go up and people in other off road rigs look down-nosed at the rover. lets face it, big flex always gets cheers from the general off-road community. in the parking lot at my favorite spot to wheel, i drive that puppy up the ramp and gain instant approval when I out-flex thier rigs. consider it scoring one for the team for posterity sake.

all that being said, go back to the original picture. imagine that that is a rock instead of a forklift, then take away my amount of drop in the rear. the drivers rear tire would be in the air. would that be any better?

tom

By Brian Jackson (Nerover) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Tom,

Excellent points, thanks. Please remember also that I wasn't specifically picking on your rig.

This is what I want to hear. This is good stuff. Let's hear some others chime in!

Brian

By Kyle on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 12:28 pm: Edit

As I have said in the past , the rear wheel forklifted pics do nothing for me and have been proven to mean nothing over and over. However , you get a forklift on a front right and one on the left rear and jack em up till the truck starts to get cocked and you are doing something. All kinds of things strart to come to light then , such as those long ass bump stops preventing some good stuffage..Also , lets get some weight in the trucks being shown off. I aint talking about a 6 pack of pepsi and some smokes , I am talking a full payload.
JBS ? Load that thing up like you are gonna do some thing with it besides drive around in circles and lets see what ya get

Kyle

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 12:47 pm: Edit

well as i keep saying. is there somewhere that flex is preventing you from going now that you are locked in the rear and TT in front?

usually for me it's a lack of ground clearance (thanks to a shitty spotter sometimes) or a complete lack of traction.

i just dont get it anymore

rd

By Kyle on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Well Rob. When you lift the truck you have actually taken away some of the things it does well. It would be nice to get them back the way they were before the lift.
You are correct however. I dont really se it as a handicap. If you really really have a need to get rid of some cash though I think thats what you should shoot for...
Some of the flexers think they are going places that the unflexy arent going?

Kyle

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 02:03 pm: Edit

Brian,

I hear ya. Didn't think you were.

Tom

By Kyle on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 05:53 pm: Edit

Have you checked Brain how high you can get opposing tires with no bottoming or binding and have all four still on the ground ? I can get opposing tires 20" high with no binding or bottoming and all four still on the ground , truck body level. Ofcourse , mine will ramp about a 300 .

Kyle

By Tom P. on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 11:58 am: Edit

Kyle,

Is that via the dual fork lift method, or cross axled somewhere?

Tom P.
96 Disco

By Kyle on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 12:27 pm: Edit

Thats cross axled , I dont have any fork lifts


Kyle

By Kyle on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 12:35 pm: Edit

I think the suspension criteria should be cross axled tests with no binding or bottoming and a level body. You stop raising when any of those happen and take your measurements. That will show true progress.....


Kyle

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 12:49 pm: Edit

I've got forklift pics.... http://www.thatchedroofgarage.com/articulation.htm

That's stock... the only thing non-stock is the 245/75 tires... springs, shocks, etc., all-factory.


-L

By Ron on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 12:57 pm: Edit

I'm limited by shock extended length. When I've run with out front shocks, the performance is phenomenal.

Then the answer is easy:

Look at Adam Way's RR front shock set up. You can run a 12in or maybe even 14in shock without any bottoming out issues.

The other thing I would like to add it that shot stock bushings allow the front to flex better.

Finally why not upper mounts too in back. It allows you to run a longer shock without risking bottoming it out or overextending it. These two things I feel like are major potential failure points for shocks AND mounts. Bump stops and spring stretch limits (and also bushing bind) should be what stops the suspension, not the shocks. They really are not made for that kinda thing.

Ron

PS I have pics of Adam's set up if you can't find them.

By JCC on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Ron send we adam's setup pics
[email protected]
thanx
Justin

By Kyle on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 01:28 pm: Edit

Les , tahts the kind of Data that I find worthless. I posted what I think the criteria should be above. Tires on oposing corners should be lifted at the same time until something unacceptable occurs. Then take your measurements from that.


Kyle

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 01:34 pm: Edit

Kyle, I agree....

I was just saying I've got forklift pics!

Seriously, my point was, that's STOCK... nothing modified....

The reason why were were messing around with the forklift was that we were generating as much stuff as possible to make sure that we had trimmed enough. While at it, might as well stick a tape there.... hmm.... now if we could find another fork-lift....

As far as THIS conversation goes, though; where such relates is that a stock rover has lots of flex... enough for most of us.

That's what I was throwing into the ring, Kyle... not saying that what we were doing was vaild for useful measurement purposes... we were 'doing' something else, and were just messin' around at that point...

-L

By Kyle on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 01:39 pm: Edit

I gotya , but , you will find that when you cross it up , you get more rub that you didnt have before and everything is exagerated. Its far better for testing..

Kyle

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Hmmm..... Good point.....

I can say that what all I've done hasn't put it at that far of an extreme, but... that's not to say that I won't get to that point next week, or the week after....

Hmmm........


-L

By Tom P. on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 03:00 pm: Edit

>...cross axled tests with no binding or
> bottoming and a level body.

I like this. This is, in theory, what every one is after in the end.

Tom Proctor
96 Disco

By Kyle on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 03:18 pm: Edit

You will see alot of things change in that scenario Tom , no wheels 8 feet in the air giving the impression of something that just aint happening...


Kyle

By cartner on Tuesday, November 06, 2001 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Kyle, is your truck lifted at all?

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Tuesday, November 06, 2001 - 07:03 pm: Edit

His truck is lifted

By Ron on Tuesday, November 06, 2001 - 07:13 pm: Edit

what do you mean I thought it was stock?

Ron

hehehehe

By Kyle on Tuesday, November 06, 2001 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Ron I cant seem to find some LR springs that fit the bill... Outside of that my suspension consists of stock components...


Kyle

By John on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 09:44 am: Edit

Maybe you should try the LR'er 110 rear HD springs, takes an adapter plate at the top to fit them in, but quite a spring.

By Ron on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 09:48 am: Edit

You are still trying to get rid of those springs aren't you John.

Ron

By John on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 10:20 am: Edit

Lol, I bought an extra set when we put a set on a classic. But they worked fine on the classic, just a thought as they are made to carry weight.

By Kyle on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 10:21 am: Edit

I got a set of those already...


Kyle

By Kyle on Saturday, November 10, 2001 - 05:42 pm: Edit

No interst in this? Cmon John , those "Bumpstop" pics are unrealistic. You crossaxle that bitch and its on em... Wanna start a pool ?
I guess the problem here is that no one understands the wieght shift and the changes that happen when you crossaxle. If you are 1" off that bumstop on that fork lift you know whats gonna happen when you cross axle... How about a directory of those pics ? lol

Kyle

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 12:53 pm: Edit

Tom ? none of the slinkies want the pepsi challenge?

Kyle

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 04:02 pm: Edit

Kyle,

I am just to tired to debate this any further. The only way to solve this is for anyone interested to get all in one place and do tests to everyones satisfaction.

Tom

By John on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 04:40 pm: Edit

those "Bumpstop" pics are unrealistic

What bumpstop pics?

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 04:42 pm: Edit

I could never let you get off that easy. You mentioned something in another post about it getting you instant recognition. Maybe that is the best way to explain the uses of shiny shocks and and dropping rears...
Another thing that interests me is that I really dont see any slinkies doing any long range Expedition type shit. Mike Peters was in Moab with us and he truely does have a nice truck. I dont see many others doing it though.
You run that thing offroad loaded down Tom ?

Kyle

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 04:45 pm: Edit

I don't know about the off-road part but, I do load it up and take long trips.

By John on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 04:47 pm: Edit

"You mentioned something in another post about it getting you instant recognition."

Nope, never mentioned.

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Bumpstop pics are unrealistic.
Tom mentioned instant recognition....Read the thread , you know what I am saying here.

Kyle

By John on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 04:55 pm: Edit

Tom speaks for himself and his opinions, if you have questions, ask Tom.

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 04:56 pm: Edit

http://www.rovertym.com/bumpstop/

http://www.rovertym.com/flex/

Cross axle that truck and its sitting on em way before wheels get that high...
Its not so different then $Gs setup and I have seen first hand what happens there...

Kyle

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Um , I did ask Tom.... you popped in there in the middle....


Kyle

By John on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 04:59 pm: Edit

Those are unpublished pics on a hidden site on my web site, how do you have access to those?

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Hidden site? The whole word has access to them...They just have to type in the URL.......



Kyle

By John on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 05:06 pm: Edit

No one has that URL but me and my web master

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 05:08 pm: Edit

That aint true.....you been pointing some others there as well.....


Kyle

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 05:12 pm: Edit

If ya truley wanna hide it you can password protect the directory. But then , if you give a password to the directory to a customer and he sends it to me in mail thinking it might be intersting then it defeats the purpose...... Not much secret on the web......if you dig a little you can find unpublished links on this site as well....

Kyle

By John on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 05:16 pm: Edit

OK...............

By Jball (Jball) on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 05:19 pm: Edit

John,

I gotta second Kyle's information. Without some form of password protection (not too hard to do, actually), anything you put on a publicly connected website is going to be open to the public -- published links and URLs or not. If someone wants to sniff around, he's going to see everything -- even without any real "hacking".

Brian

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 07:30 pm: Edit

Kyle - My recognition post was a joke. Yeesh.

Do I do "expedition" stuff, no I guess not. Don't have the time and/or the other half that would enjoy it. Don't know if it would cause a problem or not. Even if it did, who cares I'd modify my setup as needed.

The simple fact is that everyone uses thier trucks differently and sets it up the way their tastes and pocketbook can allow.

To me, I don't care how the trucks are setup on the trail as long as the folks are fun to hang with.

Tom

By Brian Jackson (Nerover) on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 08:48 pm: Edit

Guys,

C'Mon let's play nice. We're all friends, no need to argue.

Brian

By chrisvonc on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 08:49 pm: Edit

"Its not so different then $Gs setup and I have seen first hand what happens there"

Yeah, out on the trails, the Stage III is constantly crushing the bump stops, especially in the rear. I have gone through 3 in the past 12 months. We shall see if that # decreases with the heavier RT new springs. However, I dont have those spacers under the springs.

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 08:51 pm: Edit

The effectiveness of all this is what we are talking about Tom thats something you seem to keep skirting. I do however agree with your previous post (Kidding or not) about the ohhh and ahhhhs. Thats where the bang for the buck comes in. John here is quite aware of a statement I made long ago about being tired of the publics perception of what all that is getting you. These talks arent about if you like it or not and how damn "Cool" you think it is. Its about all the people that hit this board and read it. Maybe they should have the full story on it eh ?

Kyle

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 09:08 pm: Edit

http://www.discoweb.org/coilover/fork02.jpg

This is stuffage and not an illusion from a cocked axle. You see how the tire is just mashed straight up in there?

Kyle

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 09:20 pm: Edit

Argue? Who is arguing Brian ? I hope that any of these boys can handle someone disagreeing with them. .......

Kyle

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 09:41 pm: Edit

Kyle,

I am not skirting anything. I have no idea wether or not it is more effective with or without the cones with 100% certainty. I also have never been in a situation where I thought "gee, if i only didn't have those cones on...".

The bottom line is I just don't care enough to go through this all over again. It was fun while I was bored at work to pass the day, but now that I have some challenging projects underway, it is really quite boring by comparison. If the x-files didn't get stupid I might not be typing this right now, either.

Tom

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 09:45 pm: Edit

LOL , I dont recall anyone grabbing you by the neck and forcing you to get into the debate each time....lol
ok , so Tom opts out , no cross axle numers from him..... I am thinking there wont be any slinkies taking the pepsi challenge...


Kyle

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 09:47 pm: Edit

Nope, boring work did. I'd take the chance for us to go wheeling if we lived nearby though.

Maybe on your next trip cross the country you can take some time out in Indiana to play in Attica? That would be cool.

Tom

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 09:49 pm: Edit

We need to find something in between so we can get togehter. What do we have in the middle there ?

kyle

By Mike J. (Mudd) on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 10:24 pm: Edit

How bout San Diego? I'll watch.

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 10:26 pm: Edit

LOL , Hmm , man , what map are you reading ???


Kyle

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 10:39 pm: Edit

I dunno. Maybe Paragon?

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 10:52 pm: Edit

Thats half way for you? IF PA is half way there i some decent shit there...


Kyle

By Chadd on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 10:56 pm: Edit

Hey Kyle, have you got a site with pics of your car?? I wanna see your setup...

I wanna get a TDi Disco soon and do it up full mad! whats the best way to start with suspension.. Im in australia!?

By Kyle on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Yeah Chad , this site....... all over the trails section and in the photo gallery..


Kyle