By Mike on Saturday, July 28, 2001 - 05:59 am: Edit

How about Tom's Krispy Kreme Slinky Challenge on the West Coast, too? This will increase the "scientific" aspect of it because we will have that much more feedback from completely different sources. To avoid the same "influence" problems we have with polls closing earlier on the East Coast during election time, we could do it on the same day as the Krispy Kreme Slinky Challenge East. An East/West Challenge would give us a broader base of results to look at. Since Tom is a cone guy, We could nominate a retained advocate, say John Lee to run the Krispy Kreme Slinky Challenge West. Although I think Tom can be unbiased, this would help the scientific aspect and give us a better write-up if we choose to do a "paper" on the subject. What do you think?

By Mike D1 on Saturday, July 28, 2001 - 01:24 pm: Edit

I will bring my 3" lift. How about Hollister 4x4 playground, center of the State.

By Mike J. (Mudd) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 - 06:36 am: Edit

How about San Diego?

By Mike D1 on Sunday, July 29, 2001 - 07:23 am: Edit

So, [email protected] will you run the West Coast Krispy Kreme? You have been nominated by your peers!

By Jon E. Yermo (Jon) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 - 07:24 am: Edit

Just got back from Hollister last night - three of us went with stock suspensions. This is a perfect park for the slinky challenge! We took the blue and single black diamond trails with no stucks. We almost had to winch out a serious J**p Wrangler rig though.

The Discovery is a very competent rig with no mods and the only thing we found lacking yesterday was clearance to differential. Oh, and those silly air dams! I was the only one who had done away with the stock bumper completely - having gone to an ARB set up in June.

There are nice axle-twist opportunities, steep climbs and miles of nice trails at Hollister, I'd be up for going back if you can round up a dozen participants!

Cheers,

Erik

By John Lee on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 05:44 am: Edit

Gentlemen,

I really appreciate the vote of confidence, but I really think I'm the wrong person to run the KKC West, for several reasons.

If you have read the original KKC thread, you can easily discern that I am a strong believer in retainers over cones. I formed this opinion after several years of driving and observing vehicles with cones on the trail and comparing those vehicles' performance with retained rear springs. That observation has been long enough and enlightening enough that I have confidently concluded that retained springs are far superior to unretained. And that confidence is strong enough that I am thoroughly biased toward retained springs. That same bias makes me wholely unsuited to be a judge/organizer for any type of KKC.

Even if I could be unbiased, I think the results of the KKC West would have little credibility and meaning if I were the judge/organizer. The results would be highly suspect. The results would look like something put out by Milemarker in its psuedo-scientific winch tests. I am not only a believer in retained springs, I am a vendor who sells spring retainers. If I conduct a test that concludes that spring retainers are superior to cones, does that test have even a scintilla of credibility? I don't think so.

Please don't misunderstand. I think the KKC West is a great idea. It's a great opportunity to the West Coast boys to get together for some camaraderie, but it's also another chance to further the development of the offroading arts and sciences.

I thoroughly encourage conducting the KKC. I just think I'm the wrong person to conduct it.

If you guys do conduct it, I'll be more than happy to donate a set of EE spring retainers toward the cause, and if the venue is close enough, I'll attend with dozens of Krispy Kremes in hand. I'll also bring the beers.

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 05:54 am: Edit

I'll drop my donuts and meet you all wherever...

where exactly is Hollister?

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 05:58 am: Edit

also agree with JLee about his unique position which may lead to appearance of bias.

If everyone who's interested will speak up on this thread, then we can easily determine a logical geographic center to hold KKC West.

I'm from Phoenix...LA and SDiego are "just down the road". So are Utah, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, and Old Mexico.

By Wes Legaspi (Wes) on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 06:00 am: Edit

http://www.hollisterhills.com/

it might be a quite a drive for you blue...

By Mike D1 on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 04:39 pm: Edit

Hollister is an hour or so South of San Jose. Does anyone want to run the KKC West? Or co-direct it? It could be a great event. I would take part in the test.

By Jon E. Yermo (Jon) on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 05:41 pm: Edit

I humbly wish to volunteer to take possession of the retainers offered by John, and would like to say how much I like and respect John in general, both for his honesty and integrity.

All kidding aside, I'd really like those retainers, John - and thank you in advance for your consideration, which will help advance this scientific cause.

No, really - I'd be very interested in coordinating some portion of the event if anyone is interested in working on it.

Sam?

Reed?

I know you two must be in for another trip to Hollister!

-Erik

P.S. John, just let me know about the springs, retainers and the rest of the complementary set up and I'll pay the shipping!

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 05:50 pm: Edit

still waiting on locations so we can make this excuse-to-party official........

By Mike D1 on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Blue Gill,


Hollister is central in terms of North to South. Do you have another spot?? I might drive as far as L.A. but not much more.

By John Lee on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 06:52 pm: Edit

Erik,

I looked on the Galleries for your vehicle, but couldn't find it. What kind of set-up do you have?

While many different types of vehicles are suitable for the KKC, I think a vehicle very close to Tom Pearson's is close to ideal for a comparison such as the KKC.

Tom's Disco is fitted with TT/DL diffs. Without traction diffs, the differences in RTI between the various suspension systems will help or hinder trail performance. In other words, the suspension can function as a traction enhancer with open diffs. With lockers in the picture, suspension plays a very different role and switches from a traction enhancer to a stability enhancer. Any traction added by the suspension on top of the lockers is de minimis at best. Because the KKC is interested in trail performance with lockers (I think everyone pretty much concedes that high RTI will have more performance in open-diff vehicles), lockers are a must for a KKC vehicle.

Another attribute of a good KKC vehicle is that it is fitted with some kind of long-travel rear suspension kit with cones. Tom's vehicle has cones. The large amount of rear travel with cones is required to demonstrate just how much rear articulation is lost when the rear springs are retained, for those who care. The cones are required to demonstrate the stability differences between cones and retainers. The RoverTym kit is ideal, becuase the cones are bolted on rather than welded on. This makes for easy conversions of equipment in the field. The RoverTym cones are also probably the best of the current cone designs in terms of strength and quiet operation, so the cone advocates cannot later claim that cones of insufficient design were used.

An optimum KKC vehicle should also be in tip top shape. A poorly maintained vehicle could spoil the results of the test. This was one of the problems with the 1999 Twist-Off, when the OME vehicle suffered from a bent track rod and resulting poor straight-line stability. Had the OME vehicle been in proper condition, the OME vehicle would have won the on-road portion of the test and might have beat out the RW and DR vehicles to win the frist Twist-Off.

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 06:25 am: Edit

Mike, I punched Hollister into Mapquest - about 700 miles from Phx. What I meant with the last email was that I was waiting to see where everyone who is interested in KKC West is located. Obviously, if everyone who's interested is in LA area, then it should be held proximal to LA. If everyone's in SFran, then it should be held in SFran, etc.

Here's a few more distances (in miles) for reference:

Phx - SDiego = 355
Phx - LA = 375
Phx - SFran = 750

SFran - LA = 380
SFran - SDiego = 500

LA - SDiego = 120

Phx - Anza Borrego = 315
LA - Anza Borrego = 205
SFran - Anza Borrego = 585
SDiego - Anza Borrego = 90

By John Lee on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 07:25 am: Edit

Blue,

Even if there is no KKC West, perhaps we should meet in Anza or Truckhaven anyway. Truckhaven is about midway between Phoenix and Los Angeles, and there's great wheeling there. Even better, the entire area is a free-fire zone with lots of abandoned vehicles, so bring your heaters for some bullet performance testing.

It's searing hot in Truckhaven right now, but that'll just make the beers taste colder than usual.

By Jay Allen on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 08:03 am: Edit

YIPPPIE!!!! Did someone say Truckhaven?? Let's Go!

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 08:19 am: Edit

That's what I was gettin at - I gotta play at this Truckhaven place! Correct me if I'm wrong, but Truckhaven is within Anza Borrego State Park, right? Isn't the Truckhaven Poker Rally in January, too? I'm all for meeting in Truckhaven - I'm sure I can get away for a long weekend.

By Jay Allen on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 08:25 am: Edit

Truckhaven is not in ABSP, but real close. You could wheel in both places in the same day. Much better 4 wheelin in Truckhaven, it's and endless playground of some of the twistiest stuff around. Along with insane dropoffs, off camber stuff, and we can compare our glocks...

By peter matusov on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 08:33 am: Edit

hey, why don't you guys wait for me to come back from hawaii? it's going to be the last 1/3 of september.

plus, as far as articulation is concerned, i don't know of more articulation-demanding terrain than Truckhaven hills in anza-borrego desert. too hot to go there now, end of sept. is just about right.

you will see cones falling off, retainers bending, and whatnot ele.

with good luck, a rollover or two.

peter

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 08:44 am: Edit

Peter, I thought you were in Moscow?....how about we pack up the Discos and come to you in Hawaii?

Jay, thanks for the location info, I have been enlightened. I've been looking at maps, and it looks like Truckhaven is northeast of the actual ABSP (south from Indio on the I-10 to get to Truckhaven). Here's a good link I followed:
http://www.desertusa.com/anza_borrego/du_abp_map.html

With a little bit of lead time, I can plan on travelling out for a long weekend. September works for me, and maybe sooner if that's the way it ends up working out. "Free-fire zone" sounds like fun....

By John Lee on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 08:45 am: Edit

Peter, retainers bending? Whaaaaaat? Not MY retainers! Actually, Truckhaven is as good a place as any for you to see the EE retainers in action.

Wheeling. Shooting. Beers. Cigars. (Not all at the same time of course.) I'm definitely up for a Truckhaven run. Let me know if you guys are interested.

By John Lee on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 08:51 am: Edit

Oh, forgot to mention one more thing. If you guys have ever been wheeling with Jay, he's a real gourmand on the trail. No franks and beans for Jay. Nooooo. He's Mr. bacon-wrapped scallops and steaks on the trail. A real Mr. Grey Poupon.

So, the elements we have thus far are: wheeling, shooting, beers, cigars, and haute cuisine. Can it get any better?

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 08:55 am: Edit

john, calm down. seems like you are a bit too excited. and will forget all about the KKC deal.
LOL

By Ron on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 08:57 am: Edit

John is on a sugar high from all the donuts

Ron

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 08:59 am: Edit

So, the elements we have thus far are: wheeling, shooting, beers, cigars, and haute cuisine. Can it get any better?

babes & donuts?

By John Lee on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 09:00 am: Edit

Uh, what KKC deal? I was thinking of Truckhaven as more of a fun run than a scientific endeavor.

I'm not sure the KKC and shooting are a good combination. If past postings on this BB are any indication, the slinky school could become greatly upset with the results of a KKC and start shooting the retained school. The result could get ugly.

By Jay Allen on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 09:27 am: Edit

I'll be in Cozumel the first weekend in Sept, on a scuba, eating, drinking vacation. But after that, the schedule is free. I think I'll pick up some good tequila down there for Truckhaven, (bring back memories Ho?) I'll also get some good shrimp ideas for camp food. -Jay

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 10:00 am: Edit

hehe...
perhaps you dont' know yet... i've switched to scotch now.

By Jay Allen on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 10:15 am: Edit

ha ha- Are you trying to get rid of some nickname that you aquired? -Jay

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 10:17 am: Edit

so jay, tell me more about those big lights you got there....

By John Lee on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 10:25 am: Edit

I'm doing the Dusy Ershim the weekend of September 8-9. I'm basically free after that.

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 10:50 am: Edit

I hit the big three-oh on Sept 10. I plan on partying like I'm 20 and suffering through the next day...possibility of being in SDeigo week of Sept 20 for the boss' big five-oh bday.

By Roverine on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 12:09 pm: Edit

You guys WILL HAVE FUN there!! Hotter than h*ll right now, maybe a little better in Sept. Ah, the "Wild West" .... Take plenty o' pictures to post!

Kim

By Jon E. Yermo (Jon) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 12:36 pm: Edit

John,

Sounds like everyone is thinking about a more SW venue - and that's okay. Event's got to be somewhere, right? My rig is stock - mostly, and I'm just now being put into the gallery by Ho along with a small Hollister trip just completed this weekend.

Cheers,

Erik

By peter matusov on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 01:50 pm: Edit

here,

my return plane ticket is for Sep.21.
count me in the first weekend after that date!
no, i'm not in moscow. i'm in fuckin office crankin on some data.

and john - everything can get bent in truckhaven.
http://www.t-r-j.com/Anza-Borrego/TruckHaven/artic2.gif

cones will fall out.

peter

By John Lee on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Erik - I think a stock vehicle such as yours isn't really an ideal test vehicle for a KKC type of test, for the reasons stated above. The open diffs alone would disqualify it.

Peter - Ho and I have the EE retainers installed. At Truckhaven, you can check out they hold in the twisty sections. While it's possible to break almost anything, I'm confident in representing to people that our retainers won't break. Our retainers come with a lifetime warranty, not only against defects in design and manufacturing, but also against wear and tear. How many things can you think of that come with a lifetime warranty against wear and tear? AFAIK, nobody else in the Land Rover world offers that kind of guaranty on any product.

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 02:53 pm: Edit

John, you better bring a few extra "For Sale" EE retainers with you to Truckhaven...

I'm planning on extending my rear OME Nitrochargers via your trick method. I have OME MD rear springs, stock brake lines, and 245/75/16's. Sway bar will come off as soon as penetrating oil works through those damn bolts. Planning on installing EE retainers. Do you see any flaws in my plans?

By hanchung on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 03:08 pm: Edit

damn... guess i missed out on this truckhaven deal... last time i was there was when i was bone stock. can i go to? pleeeease!!!!

By John Lee on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Blue,

"I'm planning on extending my rear OME Nitrochargers via your trick method. I have OME MD rear springs, stock brake lines, and 245/75/16's. Sway bar will come off as soon as penetrating oil works through those damn bolts. Planning on installing EE retainers. Do you see any flaws in my plans?"

Sounds like a solid plan. I run the same combination in my vehicle with the exception of the tire size. My only concern is that with your heavy vehicle and the MD rear springs, you might bottom out the shocks.

Right now, we experimenting with another OME shock that gives the same extended length as the N44 shock with the home-made-extension installed, but almost the same compressed length as the N44 shock. I'll let you know how that one turns out.

In the meantime, you might want to extend your existing shocks. It costs only $2 and your shocks are only very slightly modified by the extensions.

John

By david b. on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 06:48 am: Edit

John Lee,
Can you extend stock shocks?

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 06:50 am: Edit

Yep , you can extend any..

Kyle

By John Lee on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 07:26 am: Edit

Here's one of the many ways to extend a shock:

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/dropnew.htm

By Mike D1 on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 07:34 pm: Edit

DO WE HAVE A DATE FOR THE KKC WEST???

By Brian on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 09:21 am: Edit

I don't know about KKCW, but what weekend is truckhaven? I am all juiced up from reading this thread...

Brian

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 09:48 am: Edit

I think Truckhaven is supposed to be the proving grounds for KKCW - we all just got a little excited. It's the same thing that happens when a group of 12-year olds find out that someone's Mom & Dad are taking them to Coaster Kingdom.

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Saturday, August 04, 2001 - 03:05 am: Edit

Just don't make it 09/14~09/15 (it would be bad to miss our 1st wedding anniversary). I'd like to come out.

I can have Lisa bring the Disco. It has OME MD springs and shocks (no retainers, no cones, no extended brake lines, but the rear sway bar is gone) and 215/85R16 tires. Don't know if that contributes at all to the test.

If it's ready, maybe I'll drive out the Series IIA as well..