By Clint on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 05:49 pm: Edit

I've read here before that a rear locker gets you 90% of what both will.

Consider this.

While wheeling with my dad in his dual arb'ed YJ we attemped to go up a sandy hill climb in three combinations at full street pressure. The ruts are smooth going up the hilllike a sine wave but out of phase so that you get cross axled going over each one. BTW, we've never made it up this hill in ANY unlockered rig.

1) unlocked. we made it to the first rut and opposite corners sent up showers of sand. crossaxled! as you know YJs have no flex.

2) rear only locked. We made it to the second, steeper rut. One front tire was in the air and both rear wheels spun, but could not push the short wheel base up the steep side of the rut with no front drive.

3) both locked. We made it all the way up, lifting front tires in an alternating fashion as the rear axle (and body) followed the contours of each rut.

It would have been interesting to try it with front locker only, but the arb installation was stock and the front is wired through the rear first. We may just have to change that.

Obviously, both lockers were required to climb the hill, but the analysis is interesting.
Here's my take.
When climbing a hill your weight shifts to the back axle. Both rear tires tend to stay on the ground and a locker is not really required. When you run out of articulation, one front will lift. If you dont have a locker, you have rear drive only. If those rears exceed available traction you are stuck. Sandrails do it with rear drive only and no locker, but they have no weight and big flotation tires.

Thanks for reading...

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Thanks for posting... The one thing to remember is that a locker sends power to the "wheel with traction"...TRACTION being the operative word there. If both are spinning, you're SOL. I've done plenty of unlocked vs. locked slow crawls up sandy/loose rocky hills. It's almost always one spinning rear wheel that starts the ascent failure. With rare exception, I make it up with my rear locker engaged (no front locker on my Disco). Most of the time front wheels are lifting with no affect on rear traction. The rare exceptions are when both rears start spinning and diggin ruts...then I'm SOL. I'd think that extra weight of Disco vs. YJ gives more credibility to "rear locker gets you 90% of what both will" (especially on a hill climb with more weight shifted to rear axle). I've never thought "wish I had a front locker"...

By Steve (Steve2) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 07:51 pm: Edit

clint

thanks - that reaffirms my feeling that i will have to do a major money dance to get arb's, 4:10s and hd rear shafts for next year....

i had a front locker on my xj - along with track-lock in the tail - and that sucker allowed me to climb over the darndest things..

never had a problem with an arb - ever - so i'll save to get them.

By E Snyder on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 08:05 pm: Edit

I agree that having a rear locker gives you most of what you need, but I have seen several times when a front locker would have taken me over something, particularly very steep, short obstacles, that level out once the front end makes it over and you need that extra front traction to pull your ass up it. I only have the Detroit rear, but wish I had the ARB in front. My friends wheel in FJ80 cruisers, with factory front and rear lockers, and they can do things I can't sometimes. (dammit) I'm sure some of you are running limited slips in the front end, what does this do to handling? Particularly on-road. With power steering I would assume it would be manageable, but maybe not too great?

By John Lee on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 08:07 pm: Edit

"never had a problem with an arb - ever - so i'll save to get them."

Steve, I have never met an ARB who hasn't had something die on him, so it's pretty inevitable. Be patient. Your time is coming.

By Moe on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 08:14 pm: Edit

Nice post Clint. I think the 90% rule sounds like an overstatement. Clearly most weight does shift to the rearband stays there on steady hill climbs. But a climb interrupted with crossaxles or ruts will be throwing weight all around the place, front and rear. That's where something as simple as front TT will make all the diference and can help pull the truck through the uneven ground so the rear axle can once again maintain somewhat even traction to both rear tires.

Blue, I'm sure you have wished for a front TT

By E Snyder on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 08:16 pm: Edit

Moe-
If Blue "never has wished for a front locker", he needs to get out more!!!
hehe

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 08:17 pm: Edit

all this talk about the magical lockers... makes me wish for a stock suspended white disco, 235/85-16, 4.11 gears, detroit/TT and HD shafts all over.

that should turn some heads. eh?

By p m on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 09:15 pm: Edit

oh no.... stock white disco again...
wanna mine?

peter

By Clint on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 09:50 pm: Edit

The front TT must be the missing link here.
Is "Half a locker" in front is good enough to pull the front over most obstacles?
Perhaps.

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 12:35 am: Edit

yes peter. stock white disco. that's what gives happiness.
and you should be happy.

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 12:36 am: Edit

clint, TT? half a locker? perhaps that's how lots of people define the TT. but in "lots of cases", it's as good as a full locker. and beats the hell out of an open diff.

By Ron on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 03:51 am: Edit

I look at the ARb as half a locker. Only works 1/2 the time

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 04:39 am: Edit

hehe, good point... but they dont' work at the worst possible time! sad ain't it?

By Clint on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 11:15 am: Edit

Ho,
I wasn't trying to slam the TT, I'm sure its great. I was just trying to make a (perhaps careless) distinction between the ARB and TT.

Another negative that I don't think has been brought up with ARBs is that you have to stop and push some buttons every time you need to turn around.

By Simon E. Arenas (Simon) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 11:21 am: Edit

you are forgetting when you need to back out of a fuck up... I went with a bunch of tampa people to richloam and got too confident and almost drown, something grabbed my trac rod and hold me for about 1 or 2 minutes in very deep water... so I retreated successfuly only when I used the ARB front .... and bent the hell out of my trac rod.

you need front TT, locker or what ever but stock
if you have an ARB just maintain it.. I agree that in that moment an arb fuck up would have been the worst... so maintain that shit the best you can and forgettabouit... 80)


Simon

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 11:23 am: Edit

clint, yes, when the ARB works, it's better than the TT. no doubt.

By Clint on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 11:28 am: Edit

A question about the TT in operation. Assuming you are on the gas with a TT, when you lift a wheel, is there immediately no traction like with an open diff? or is there some traction as the tire in the air accelerates and then no traction when it reaches top speed?
If the second case is true, would a TT allow you to ride through obstacles that lift wheel momentarily, but not really be good for slow rock crawling?

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 11:33 am: Edit

17,526 miles on my ARB with No PROBLEMS!

By John Lee on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 11:50 am: Edit

Clint,

"Assuming you are on the gas with a TT, when you lift a wheel, is there immediately no traction like with an open diff? or is there some traction as the tire in the air accelerates and then no traction when it reaches top speed? If the second case is true, would a TT allow you to ride through obstacles that lift wheel momentarily, but not really be good for slow rock crawling?"

The former is not correct. If you are on the gas with a TT and the truck is moving, when you lift a tire the TT biases torque between both wheels on the axle.

There is a weakness in the TT in that if you are stopped and one wheel is lifted and then you hit the gas, the TT will act like an open diff. The TT needs resistance on the wheels to work properly, since the way the TT operates is to push the helical worm gears away from the side gears and into the diff's carrier. That is why you often hear about brake modulation with the TT. If you have a wheel in the air, you can fool the TT into thinking both wheels are on the ground by gently tapping the brake as you hit the gas.

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 12:52 pm: Edit

>"If Blue "never has wished for a front locker", he needs to get out more!!!
hehe"

I second that emotion. I'll probably end up with TT front sooner or later.........

P.S.

By John Lee on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Blue,

Another option would be to move the ARB to the front and fit a Detroit rear. That way, you would still have good traction in the rear when your front ARB craps out.

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 01:04 pm: Edit

I know I know I know. I know. So, how much of a kickback does Detroit give you? Or are you just gettin some major nookie from Mrs. Detroit? Ha ha just kiddin. I'm fine with my ARB rear setup (just turned 76k miles - only problem encountered was user error), and I want the potential tracking benefits of TT front. Basically, I'm inherently lazy & cheap so I don't want to mess with the rear if I don't have to.

I have a dream....that one day my poor locker will be judged on the content of its mechanism and not on the three letters of its abbreviation...

By John Lee on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Blue,

Why don't you drive around my truck at the upcoming CORVA Poker Run if you can make it. You're more than welcome to drive it around the trails and the highways and around Salton City. Then you can get a feel for the TT and see if you like it.

One thing I'm not sure though is how much of the feel will be affected by the DL in the rear. I've never driven a TT front/open rear vehicle, so I couldn't say how much the DL adds in the rear.

By Simon E. Arenas (Simon) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Blue, I used to have the ARB in the back and then was convinced to go with DL ... so... I switched pumpkings and all was good... very simple job.

I had a lot of banging with the DL for a while and after replacing my rear bearings all went away....

Simon.

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 04:27 pm: Edit

You are all evil.

By evilron on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 04:28 pm: Edit

hehehehe

Only I am evil

By Joshua Weinstein (Untrakd) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 05:42 pm: Edit

Blue, almost went the way it seems your leaning. I even had a TT at my door that I turned back. I went dual ARB for one simple reason. I wanted to be able to track straight on a muddy off camber situation. In the Northwest we have a lot of this. You get on a side slope, and the only thing keeping you from sliding into a tree stump is the fact that your downhill front wheel is not spinning, keeping you off of things. With a TT or anything but an open diff in this situation would surely result in some body panel damage. For Kyle and the rest of you Devils out there, hopefull I will have pictures to proove this after I get Matt Moe's rig in this situation! The second factor was the fact that I already had the compressor and lines to run. Why not 1 more? If your really going to think TT or DL, just throuw your rear pumpkin up front and put the DL in the back.

By Simon E. Arenas (Simon) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 06:04 pm: Edit

why evil blue?
I like the idea of the TT, I mean I saw first hand how PK with stock shafts and dual TT's did awesome in Hole in the Rock...

my front ARB saved me from hydrolocking the disco I think a TT would have done the same...

so at the end.. Y.O.U.N.E.E.D.T.O.U.P.G.R.A.D.E.!.!.!.!
DO IT ... you don't need food... you need traction
you know you doooooo....

hehehehe

By Simon E. Arenas (Simon) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 06:13 pm: Edit

one question.. if some Evil DL owner gets into a fuckup like discribed by Joshua here.. if this Evil moves the CDL to unlock would that fix the fuckup and not walk agaisnt the trees?

I think this was metion on another post... I think it is interesting...

but then again here in florida the highest elevation is 300 and some feet.. so I might never know..


Simon.

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 06:43 pm: Edit

>"DO IT ... you don't need food... you need traction
you know you doooooo...."

Ah, I see you are another graduate of Ho's EVIL "just do it" militant mental training camp. Tempting me like that...Satan be gone...You are the evil ones indeed. Jesus shall save me and give me divine traction when I'm axle-deep in whale shit!

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 06:47 pm: Edit

hey blue, wait till you eat some more of my tri tips. you'll not only have the evil DL, but preach the gospel as well.
LOL

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 06:54 pm: Edit

The only tri tip I got was the fox's leftovers, but all the beer, wine, & scotch had me preachin

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 07:29 pm: Edit

OR.......you could get rid of all lockers and install fiddle brakes!

Wouldn't really want to do this, but just read an interesting article in LRE about installing fiddle brakes. Kinda neat - a little seperate master cylinder and actuator for each wheel. If one side loses traction, just lock up the wheel until the diff sends power to the other side.

A bit complicated - yep (I'm sure I'll hear from Kyle on this idea )

Regardless it made for an good read....

By Simon E. Arenas (Simon) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 07:44 pm: Edit

yes... I'm one of the ones HO converted to the dark side....

oh and that trip tip... humm....
HO next time I want to try some picanha!!!

LOL

Simon.

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 08:12 pm: Edit

picanha? you have porcao there, you can have all the picanha you want!

bill, that brake thing... interesting. but...

By Mike D1 on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 10:24 pm: Edit

Clint,

I do find that my rear locker is the one that works the most. This is because most of the time I (and most people) are trying to get up something. This shifts the weight to the rear wheels, thus a rear locker is the most needed. I find on flat ground with say thick mud (like last week at Prairie City SVRA) the front locker was a must or I would have been stuck. I started through a bog with just the rear on and felt the truck start to bog down and get stuck. I hit the front locker button and just pulled it out. When you need the front locker it's often do or die on flat mud or sand. In other words, imagine if you started down a steep muddy slope and decided it was crazy dangerous. You decided to back out but you rear locker is now up hill and does not have much weight on it and is just spinning. It would be the front locker that had the weight on it and got you out and saved your skin.

P.S. If you're in the N. Calif. area don't miss our Hollister mud run this Sunday!

By Clint on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 02:15 am: Edit

Gosh,
I wish. I'm pretty far away in Michigan. The only mega park we have here is silver lake. It's about an hour and a half away and has hundreds of acres of sand dunes and there are only three rules there.
Hollister looks awesome. Have you seen the Top truck challenge tapes? That's the kind of place that I could get into...
Oddly enough, I will be flying to sacremento on the 9th. How far away is hollister from there?

By Simon E. Arenas (Simon) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 03:45 am: Edit

nahh Ho Porcao is not that good anymore....
I WANT PICANHA!
hehehe.

By chris sharpe (C_M_Sharpe) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 03:57 am: Edit

Clint,
Depending on traffic, Sacramento is, on average, 3 hours away from hollister.
-chris

By Moe on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:17 pm: Edit

Josh, I know you went with the dual ARBs largely for the sticker on the rear window, admittedly you wanted one for each side window so you had to get ARB front and back

The Evan's Creek type trails you describe one would be better off with dual TTs not ARBs. It is not maximum traction holding the Disco up on those trails but rather the SIZE of the Disco, and all the stock Disco needs in most spots is a little more traction, not much at all. Let's give it a year and report back with more experienced opinions and photos of all the damage done--glad to be on the west coast where body damage is cool

By Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 08:44 pm: Edit

how about WELDED spider gears..I have seen this in effect on tellico and various other places...has anyone every delt with them

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 08:37 am: Edit

Done plenty in the young - "have no money - wanna go fast days" - wouldn't recommend it for a daily driver - makes it kind of a bitch to turn corners.....tires don't last too long either

By Bruce on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 07:52 pm: Edit

I am using TT front and rear. The main reason why TT, 80% pavement and extra costs of axle upgrades for DL. Now, why front and rear? I was just getting tired of using my truck's momentum to carry me through or over situations. So now, I can creep through with confidence and my time fixing things that I break or bend has been reduced significantly. I have not had to plunge the inertia switch since and I don't spill my beer as often. Ooopps, I meant my Pepsi.
Bruce