By BRIAN on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 07:08 pm: Edit

What tires are best for winter driving for my disco 2? i live in vermont so we get lots of snow and ice. will my stock 4x4 xpc work fine?

By Milan on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 08:43 pm: Edit

I think the stock tires suck. Actually they're not entirely bad but I think a dedicated snow&ice tire like Blizzacks would be best for ice. If you want something more general that aslo deos well off-road, then BFG AT/KO, Bridgestone Dueler AT or GY MT/R would be much better choice. I also think 245s or wider would give better grip over the 235's.

But I have not tried anything different on the Disco yet as the darn stock tires are still good.

By Craig on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 10:02 pm: Edit

Brian-
Those XPC's are about as nice as I've seen for an all weather tire in the snow. Tough to beat the Nokian Hakkapaleta or Hak 10 for a dedicated snow tire in the right load range.
Craig

By jack parker (Jack) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 08:36 am: Edit

Brian,
My Disco 2 came with the Goodyear HP, and no ACE, so I have the 16” tire. I live in Winter Park, Colorado – we get over 30 feet of snow a year and after a couple of early snows, I decided to replace the Goodyears with Bridgestone Blizzak Winter Dueler DM-Z2. I’ve looked at the XPC, and agree with Craig - that looks like a pretty good tread design for winter driving. A true snow tire might give slightly better traction due to a softer compound, but I would try the XPC in some snow and ice. You will have a hard time finding and maybe paying for the stock tire size. 255/65R16 is a rare size in snow tires, it is available although expensive. Check out www.tirerack.com. I chose the more common 245/75, it’s about 1” narrower, and about 1.5” taller. It fits fine, no rubbing although it looks definitely fills up the wheel well. So far I am pleased with the Blizzaks, they are the same service and load rating as the Goodyears, but far superior in stopping and turning on packed snow and ice. Again, I’d give the Michelins a try before investing in a snow tire.
Jack

By Milan on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 10:06 am: Edit

The XPC looks good but the compund is so hard it does not really work that well. The Goodyears that come on D2's are much better and so are the other tires mentioned.

By Chris Browne on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 11:12 am: Edit

I've got Blizzaks on my wifes' Volvo and probabaly will replace with same again after this season. I will how every look at Michelin too. She needed them.

By Paul on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 11:25 am: Edit

I just started running the Big O XT's and am very impressed with that tread in the snow and ice. It is a much better tread than my previous BFG AT's. I've lived in Denver all my life and this is one of the best treads I have ever used on a 4wd. They are loud, but hey it's a Disco...

By Brian Baker (Doubleb) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 11:36 am: Edit

I live in washington state in the cascades and just pushed snow with my front bumper on the stock xpc's on 1997 disco unlocked. there is alittle under 1/2 tread left on the tires. So i like them.

By Brian Baker (Doubleb) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 11:41 am: Edit

I think Milan is smoking something the roads east of here (brewster wa) get ice so bad cats spinout but with the right speed I have had no problems.

By davebennett on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 12:15 pm: Edit

Thanks for the good advice folks. I'm leaning to the Bridgestone duelers. My question is..Can I fit a P275/65/16 on my 99' with my OEM rims? I want the wider tire and alittle more height but will the extra height clear? I'd hate to trial and error this thing.

By Milan on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 04:00 pm: Edit

I'm not smoking anything Brian, but believe it or not, even snow and ice have different consistencies. We find BFG ATs and the Bridgestone Dueler ATs as best in these parts (Alberta, Canada) on most vehicles. Yet I see some people saying the BFG AT is not as good as this or that. Then I think they're smoking something. We also find Blizzaks good ons snowy and icy roads but not so good on the trail. I think a lot of this boils down to where and mainly HOW you drive. For me the stock tires are pieces of crap on and off the road. Does not mean you have to agree.

BTW, I did not say I had any problems with them (I still have them) but there are way better tires than the XPCs in my opinion, and if somebody does not like them I think they should know what the options are.

By p m on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 05:46 pm: Edit

FWIW, michelin seems to have replaced XPC line with Alpin - and the Alpins have multiple sipes on each lug. that seems to be an awesome snow/ice tire.

check http://tires.michelin-us.com:80/assets/pdfs/doc_4x4alpin.pdf

peter

By Mateo on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 06:19 pm: Edit

Dude, you've got AWD, you dont need snow tires. The stock ties are all weather and will do just fine. I too live in snow country (snowing right now). In fact, I drove in a snow storm from Oregon to home last weekend without any problems on the stock tires. Now for your rear wheel car, I'd go with snow tires.

By Brian Baker (Doubleb) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 06:28 pm: Edit

No offense intended Milan there are better tires for ice and snow, but they are a good all around tire. We each have our own option don't we. Is there any good trails in jasper national or baniff? Those places are only a 8 hours or so away from me. fishin hot spot are appreciated ( none touristy type.

By Milan on Saturday, December 01, 2001 - 12:05 pm: Edit

No offence taken. I was just hinting at the fact that debating what's best for snow is like debating what's best for mud. It depends on where you wheel and what type of mud or snow you have. I imagine places like CO, OR and WA have wetter snow than what we get here in Alberta.

Anyway, my main point was that I prefer off-road tires that are good off-road and do well in the snow (GY MT/R). If you want something less agressive, not bad off-road and still good in snow then get the BFG AT/KO or Bridgestone Dueler AT (or some of the other tires suggested). If you don't care about off-road much and want good winter tires for ice and snow, get the Blizzaks or similar.

My other point was that I don't like the XPC much (weak sidewalls, useless in mud and not any better in snow than any of the other tires I mentioned) - basically a passenger car tire with mediocre performance that has no business to be on a 4x4. I totally agree that you don't need winter or ice tires on a 4x4 but that's what the poster was asking about. I also live with the XPCs without any problems I just want better tires than that for off-road and I know that those that I mentioned will give me that and better performance on ice/snow around here as well. That's all.

No wheeling in Banff or Jasper as they are National Parks. There is wheeling in the mountains here and the off-road area does actually go all the way to Banff N.P. borders. I don't fish much in the parks but I know you could try Lake Minewanka for big trout as well as Three Jacks Lake for smaller onse. This one is actually on the way to Minewanka so you could try both. I'm sure there are some back-country hot spots that might give you better fishin' but I don't know what they are. If you make it up here, let me know and I can show you some trails around here.

By MorrisJesup on Saturday, December 01, 2001 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Hi Brian,

I too think that Milan smokes a wee bit. Whichever you select for a winter tire, narrower will grip better, not wider.

I also like the XPC, now apparently the Alpin4x4 as Peter gives us the link above. I bent an alloy wheel last month in Moab, and the sidewall did not suffer. Blizzak and Nokian Hakkapaleta have good reputations. Some places are so cold (like WP, Colo), that there is less ice, so the driving actually gets easier.

Ralph E
Colorado

By jack parker (Jack) on Saturday, December 01, 2001 - 07:56 pm: Edit

Agreed that narrower is better, and another point to consider is that although AWD provides superior forward traction in slippery conditions, slightly better control in a turn, they have no advantage in stopping. The Disco is heavy, and takes a while to stop on ice or packed snow. This is where a snow tire is far superior. Finally, not sure how our “cold” weather up here is “so cold …..that there is less ice, so the driving actually gets easier”. Easier than? Our roads are already snow packed and ice covered and will stay that way until March/April. What does make our driving easier is that CDOT and the town does an outstanding job of plowing, and keeping the main roads heavily sanded (at the cost of a couple of windshields a year).

By Milan on Saturday, December 01, 2001 - 08:17 pm: Edit

I had a whole reply prepared on how I think the narrow tire does not mean better traction and how wider is better in most cases, especially off-road. Suffice to say I lost it and I'm too tired to retype it.

I'll let other people hack this out. I know what works for me in my area and XPCs ain't it. I also have not found a single tire that would do it all and so far the best compromise I have seen was a studded and siped General Grabber MT. I don't know how it would do on rocks but it seems to do everything else extremely well. In mud the only thing better would be a bogger, but then again I said it was a compromise. Also the siping and studing added to their cost to make them equaly as expensive as MT/Rs.

If narrow XPC'x work for someone I won't dispute it but I will be inclined to believe they have never tried a wider and better tire.

By Moe on Sunday, December 02, 2001 - 11:53 am: Edit

Milan, I would like to hear this 'wider is better' argument. And how do you know when 'wider' is wide enough

By cartner on Sunday, December 02, 2001 - 12:34 pm: Edit

wider isn't. With an appropriate pattern, and narrower footprint, more weight is put upon the tread thus digging into the surface beneath that you want to move over. a wider tire will decrease the amount of weight on the tread. Great for sand, or mud with a bottom, but not for snow.

By CapnRick on Sunday, December 02, 2001 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Nokian Hakkapaleta- For on road snow driving, hands down, no contest. Blizzaks are the next best, but they are distant second to the Haks. I'm in Maine, and the Haks are the best. Try em before you flame me. I've driven them both, with several all wheel vehicles.

By Milan on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 12:35 pm: Edit

Moe,
Surface area and more tread grabbing at the surface you're driving on, that's how. Contact pressure is not everything. I think Disco's should come on 265's or 11.50 or even 12.50 width. 12.50 would be wide enough.

Anyway, you sound like you won't believe that anyhow, so stick to the "high traction" skinnies.

By Brian Baker (Doubleb) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Milan
My mother has 11.50 inch tire on a corvette and could not get out of a parking lot with two inches of snow( wet, dry or other wise). So I have to go with skinnier is better. Unless your trying to float the auto over three feet of snow.

By Milan on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 05:59 pm: Edit

Like I said it does depend. There are conditions that favor skinnies. These include certain types of shallow snow and clay-like mud (maybe that's why CT trucks use them). I did not find benefits to narrow tires anywhere else and all they give you is less rolling resistance and better tracking on road.

I think the Corvette is lighter than the disco and I don't know what tires it had.

But like I said before, I'm not really arguing for or against anything. People have to figure out what works for them and where. But just saying "narrow is better" is not really true. Additionally, my statement said "wider and better" where I meant the goodness attribute of "better" affected by tread design not the width.

By David on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 06:18 pm: Edit

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, however you should check out the Dunlop Rover RT's. I've had me eye on these (I live in Boston, and ride in VT on the weekends). I've heard lot's of good stuff on these and several fellows out west swear by them. Hell, go to tirerack.com and take a look at their ratings for the tire. It's one of the best all around on the list.

By Ron on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 06:18 pm: Edit

No one mentions Dunlop RTs, a first!

Man

and dunlop even sells them as a snow tire

By Milan on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 06:30 pm: Edit

Yup. Dunlop's are supposedly very good and wear and work well out here in the west. I just never had them and the BFG AT KO has a thicker sidewall, so I think it would be a better general choice around here as the extra protection from sticks and such is nice.

By Davis on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 10:41 pm: Edit

I am on my second season of the Nokian Hakkapaleta's and have noticed a difference. I am sure there are other worthy tires, but for a dedicated snow tire this one won't let you down.

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 08:49 am: Edit

I love my RTs, but I've not had them in the snow yet, so I wasn't going to pitch in here since it wasn't from personal experience.... I'm expecting that they'll be good, though.

Come on, snow! I'm waitin'!!!!


-L

By Moe on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 10:36 am: Edit

Milan, so you settle on 12.5 please no bigger! That is a lot of tire for the disco, but the disco is probably heavy enough to handle the tire. I have seen that size BFG Mt 33" on the much lighter samurai and it was too wide. A hen scratching the earth would have more traction--he just couldn't dig in to the dirt.

Yes, I prefer the skinny 235/85 tires but might go a little wider in the future. The Trixus MTs (snow rated) did quite well in the snow this weekend.

By Moe on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 10:38 am: Edit

But the the new Michelin 265 snow tires had some trouble.

By Ron on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 10:39 am: Edit

Man I miss snow

I have an alley "green lane" with vehicle rights behind my new place. I see myself driving up and down incesently after the first snow

hehehehe

By Milan on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 11:23 am: Edit

Hey Moe,
Nice pics. Nice wet snow. I think in those conditions shown it was more the tread than the witdth. Air pressure also makes a huge difference. Or maybe just different drivers did that, eh? What tires and pressure were you guys driving? If you don't know that's fine. This is why I say it all depends and you have to go by what you see works and what doesn't. Regardless of theoretical ramblings about surface area, contact pressure, friction, etc.

You're absolutely right about even 12.50 being too wide for some vehicles (aka the Sammi). Even though I'm sure some Boggers would be an exception to the rule as the more grabbing tread there is the better for some off-road situations. I generally go by my TJ. It can handle 12.50s on snow quite well. The Disco is even heavier, so I'm sure they would work. The 9.50 (you see I actually like skinny tires) I put on my 81 fullsize Bronco, were the biggest mistake ever. They only did so-so on the TJ before that. I'm sure on a Sammy, a Willys, a Series 80" or a Lightweight they would do extremely well. But on a heavy vehicle there's just not enough tread to hold the weight.

By Milan on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 11:30 am: Edit

Here are some pics from our last trip. Don't get offended by the Heeps as we had 2 Defenders with us. They did really well. I'm showing this for the snow - dry powdery stuff.

Go to:
http://www.calgaryjeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1090&FORUM_ID=4&CAT_ID=2&Topic_Title=Nov+25th+Club+Run%3F+I%27m+in%21&Forum_Title=Trails&whichpage=5

In this set you can see how some treads keep the snow better in the tire thus giving more traction. The first few are MT Claws, then some MT's, the last one are BFG ATs:
http://www.calgaryjeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1090&FORUM_ID=4&CAT_ID=2&Topic_Title=Nov+25th+Club+Run%3F+I%27m+in%21&Forum_Title=Trails&whichpage=5

By Brian Baker (Doubleb) on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 12:30 pm: Edit

Moe
Was that the snow run on Stevens pass this past weekend. I sorry I missed it. I've been going out on lunch and tooling the snow around brewster Wa this week and last. Just about as deep with stocker tires and no lift on my 97. Damn is it fun. Got stuck yesterday and a logging truck pulled me out of two feet. I need a locking diff. I was feeling cocky

By Moe on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Brian, yes this was the trip organized by Weinstein and we attempted to make it over some pass near Stevens but we were turned back due to the deep wet snow. Kevan's '87 Rangie broke trail with chains and did very well but he turned around after the snow was plowing up over the bonnet.



Milan, nice pics. That stuff looks dry, crunchy, and cold! Good for those wider tires When you say some tire treads keep the the snow better, but don't you also want the snow to clean from the tire?

By Moe on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 12:52 pm: Edit

Milan, for example look at this picture. Here the Michelins are having a hard time--I think the Disco is stuck! You can see that the wet Cascade snow is collecting in the inner treads.

By doubleb on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 01:52 pm: Edit

moe
maybe not as deep a foot in most places some less here some more there. I got stuck there

By Milan on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 04:13 pm: Edit

Yeah, Moe, you want the snow to clear also just like anywhere else you want fresh tread biting. However, for slow going we find if the snow can be made to stick, you'll probably keep moving. It's actually hard to get the powdery stuf to stick but the pics were from mid day when ot warmed up a bit.

In the snow you're showing (nice pics by the way - I like that rear skid plate of yours), I'd say coarser tread and/or low pressure (below 10psi) would have worked. I see the last pic shows the guy at street pressure - thats insane. And nothing beats chains.

By Rich Lee on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 10:05 pm: Edit

I've had 3 seasons of Sierra driving on the Dunlop RTs in all kinds of snow. I love them! As I've posted before, other than the BFG Trac Edge, which is more expensive and harder to find, the RTs are the only mud-worthy tire that is also RMA rated for severe winter conditions. The Hakka's are probably better in snow, but not as good in mud. If I lived with "real" winters (3 - 4 mos of continuous snow), I would probably also have a set of the Hakka's. I used to run XPC's in both 235/70-16 and 255/65-16 they were very good in snow (the narrower ones a little better), but are not as tenacious as the RT's in snow and not even close in mud. The nice thing about the Dunlop RT's (other than the price) is that they are such a good "all-round" tire.

As to the skinny tire arguement, look at any of the tires being run on the all-snow stages of any WRC Rally. They are VERY skinny, 135 to 165mm in width. This is to allow them to "bite" better, with more PSI in the contact patch. These tires are not meant to float over the snow, but to grip in it. If you want to drive on top of snow, go with the setup on the Icelandic Discos.

Above all, chains rule! But can you fit them on your big tires with close clearances?