By Lester Burnham on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 06:44 pm: Edit

I have heard about people removing the sway bars on their discos but am wondering what this does for you? I am guessing it increases articulation, but by how much? Also, how are they on-road without sway bars? How excessive is the lean? Is it better to get stiffer springs before removing the sways? Thanks

By PerroneFord on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 06:54 pm: Edit

Should just about double articulation. If you've got good shocks, the lean isn't bad. If you've got good aftermarket shocks, you probably won't notice the difference.

Stiffer springs won't make that much a difference in sway, but shocks sure will.

-P

By Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 08:39 pm: Edit

what sort of shocks

By Reid P. Walkenhorst (Runningmule) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 09:03 pm: Edit

I recently removed sway bars on my DII. I have OME medium springs w/firm valving shocks. The ride is actually better. And the articulation is improved also. I must admit I'm pretty green to the off-road capabilities of the DII at this point (17,000 miles). I havn't "flexed" the suspension to see what the limitations are, but...I have noticed that while off-roading in area's that I have frequented in the past, the tires seem to be staying in contact a lot better with the ground compared to the days before the sway bars were removed. I guess to make a long story short, removing sway bars didn't change on road performance, while articulation seems better. I'm just not certain how much better! Maybe you might want to consider quick disconnects.

RPW

By p m on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 09:25 pm: Edit

Lester, it does wonders for you.

especially if you have stiffer springs, like OME HD - then you don't have much sway on the highway, and good articulation off road.

Perrone, shocks don't do a whole lot for sway, at least in slow cases when you enter a curve on the highway. Sway bars do, and so do stiffer springs. I didn't even think of taking the sway bars off before i put the OME HD springs in. with stiffer springs and no front sway bar, i was able to drive on a twisted mountain highway nearly close to posted speed limit (completely out of Q with stock springs and no sway bar).

With the stiffer springs, however, stiffer shocks will be needed, or your truck will behave really funny on the washboard. I found OME shocks too soft for OME HD springs, and stayed with Bilsteins.

peter

By PerroneFord on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 09:33 pm: Edit

Peter, that interesting, but doesn't reflect my experience.

I've swapped maybe 8-10 sets of springs, and a few shocks, and without fail, the shocks have made more difference on MY truck than stiff springs. Mind you I currently have the stiffest of the RoverTym rears on my truck, and 250# springs up front. And still, I get more sway than with my stock springs and firm shocks.

Perhaps the disco is different.

-P

By Mike D1 on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Lester,

A photo is worth a thousand words, so go to "trails" than to Hollister #5. This shows a flex trail with two Rover Tym trucks and a OME and stock truck. There is a big flex difference. The RT trucks have the sway bars off. My truck has EE retainers (truck with the Hi-Lift jack, sand ladders etc.). I have seen springs pop off the cone and it's a bitch to get it back on. This does not go over well with the wife! I have the quick release on the front and rear sway bars because I like going over 30mph around highway curves. The bars off on the highway is scary (and I have firm bilstein 12" travel shocks).

Good Luck

By Lester Burnham on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 12:44 am: Edit

I don't mind the lean, but will it roll easier? I drive my Disco like it is the M3 my wife talked me out of!

By PerroneFord on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 09:28 am: Edit

Lester,

If you want to drive the LR that way, you will end up killing yourself and possibly others. You can't drive a tall 5500# SUV like an M3 or even a 318i.

If you find yourself playing Gran Prix on the street often, the best you can do is to leave the bars on, fit OEM Bilstiens, and OME HD springs. That ought to firm up the ride enough for you to slide rather than tip. But if you have any racing or autocross experience, you'll know what a stiff swaybar does at the back during high speed cornering when there is significant transfer of weight (like in a Disco).

-P

By PerroneFord on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 09:30 am: Edit

Peter,

I am also interested in your comments that shocks don't do much for sway. Can you give an example of how a change in spring rate affects sway vs. how a change in shocks affects sway? I'll be glad to offer my thoughts after I hear your arguments.

-P

By Simon E. Arenas (Simon) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 09:45 am: Edit

I play grand prix no sways either ...
RTE back blue front OME back rancho 9000 front

i had cones before that were a bit scary but now all retained no problems..

its all in you head!

80)

Simon

By Milan on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Well my experience is that both springs and shocks affect sway and unless you go with overly stiff springs, the shocks will have a greater effect. If you don't belive me get some RS9000 and try the different settings on them.

Also with the bar removed, it will sway more unless you can stiffen up the shocks. If it sways more it can be easier to roll as the CG will move more. If you drive on the highway or above 40, I'd say keep it connected. It's not how it feels during normal driving but during an emergency manouver.

Somebody said it best: "We don't disconnect for off-road, we connect for the road."

Funny, we just had the same discussion on the Heep forum.

By Milan on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 12:15 pm: Edit

Or if you want to run disconnected all the time, then you should get RS9000 and set them up stiff for the road. It works but IMO it affects the ride quality (maybe Simon or others could elaborate on the ride quality - I'm sure they'll say it's better than stock but they're lying, they just forgot ) but everything we do is a compromise.

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 12:33 pm: Edit

Either way if you lift your truck and put taller tires on it you are going to roll.. Even stock at highway speeds durring an emergancy manuver you are lucky if you don't flip over. We are driving tippy trucks. A roll over can happen with or without sway bars.

By Milan on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 12:37 pm: Edit

But more so without them unless you otherwise compensate for them being off.

By mike w on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 04:50 pm: Edit

hmmm, my turn. based upon my experence from racing, the spring is the support for the weight of the vehicle (to include weight added by the effects of speed), the shock keeps the tyre on the roadway (by dampening the effects of suspension movement). the use of sway bars is an american thing. most (MOST) euro car tuners will tell you that the proper combination of springs and shocks is all that is required to control your vehicle under the laterial stress of its weight thru a turn, that being the weight of the vehicle shifting while negotating a turn. there are limits and the disco meets those limits by its height (aka center of gravity). so the driver plus the proper combination of shocks and springs are required to keep your car under control. you have to have all three , properly functioning in order to cast loose the ties of sway bars. sorry shocks alone will not do it.

By Milan on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Hmmm. You're right, of course. The proper combination of springs and shocks will not require anti-sway bars. The American vehicles did not have any on leaf sprung 4x4s but look at what kind of ride they had. The coil springs ride softer and if you want a comfy ride on a truck you need soft springs. Then you'll need sway bars to keep it in line. If you still want to keep soft springs and remove the sway bar, you need really stiff shocks. And the RS9000s do do it. Now, you may be stressing the shock mounts too much but it does seem to work.

The better alternative would be stiff springs and properly matched shocks. But then you get a stiffer ride. If i want a stiff suspension, I'll get a sports car and then I won't worry about it having the sway bar or not.

By p m on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Perrone and Milan,

the answer depends on what you call sway.
if it is the lean during a long turn (highway curve), than shocks don't do anything. All lean is controlled by sway bars and springs. The stiffer are the springs and sway bars, the less lean.

if you mean sway during the fast lane changes or similar manoevers, shocks add up to springs and sway bars.

Before i put OME HD springs into my disco, i wouln't even consider removing the front sway bar for a highway ride to the mountains. With stiffer springs, the ride was very much okay with the front sway bar removed. Removal/installation of the rear sway bar didn't seem to affect cornering much. Keep in mind that i always had Bilsteins on the disco.

The rangie doesn't even have a sway bar, and it has very soft and worn out woodhead shocks. it does lean quite a bit, but with OME HD springs it out-corners the Disco by ~10-15%, speed-wise. The fast lane changes are horrible, though.

Perrone, i wonder why anyone would go through 8-10 sets of springs. Are you picky or what?

Milan - i drove my jeep for ages with the front sway bar disconnected. It did lean a lot more in the turns (with Bilstein shocks), but it did have a lot more articulation. Never to a point where its behavior would scare me on the road. Off-road, however, i found that at the full stuff and full lock in front i can jam the tire between the rock and the fender to a point when nothing but a strap gets me free. So, i keep the sway bar connected now, to _limit_ the articulation. Not that much of a loss, though, with a foot of travel and 80" sidewall-to-sidewall width.

peter

By Kyle on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 05:46 pm: Edit

And they arent "Sway bars" they are "Anti roll bars" they are to control body roll not tail wagging. Low tire pressure or worn suspension components will make your truck sway. The shocks have some to do with body roll but not nearly as much as spring rate... Those fast off road side to side jolts can certainly be dampened or slowed some by shock valving but on a long turn they wont do much..

Kyle

By Milan on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 06:40 pm: Edit

Some people seem to differ between sway and roll. I heard the bars being called both anti-sway and anti-roll. I also think that the body lean/roll/sway is affected the same during a lane change or in a long sweeping corner. All that changes is the time in which it will happen. Undoubtedly in a longer time the shocks will have less effect as they will compress and extend as necessary. However, even then, stiffly setup shocks just will not move easily past a certain compression/extension and thus will limit the body roll/sway/lean. Otherwise even the stiffly shocked vehicles would eventually lean too much in the corners. I guess the point is that Kyle is saying they will and I'm saying they won't if the shocks are much stiffer than needed.

As to the difference whether shocks or springs control more, I think it is relative. Either one you have to get to a point where it makes enough difference. If you have really soft springs you want to keep, you have to get really stiff shocks to counter act the sway/roll/lean (if you remove the sway bar). If you want soft shocks you need stiff springs. As mentioned before best is the proper combination of both and to me that boils down to how stiff a spring I want/need to run. Then match it withc shocks. What the RS9000s do, they usually match the application somwhere on the middle setting and then you can stiffen them up for better cornering (but you will feel those bumps more as well).

Like I said, I like mine softly sprung, yet I like to corner fast, so I run sway bars on-road. The sway bar keeps me from swaying and the springs and shocks do what they're designed to do, which is soak up the bumps in the road, so my tender ass does not complain much.

By mike w on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 07:22 pm: Edit

again....shocks are not the absolute key to reducing body roll in cornering. over dampened shocks cause a stiff ride. not heavy springs. its the combination of fluids and gas in a tube that will cause a harsh ride. test it get stiff springs and remove the shocks take a ride around the block and report your findings. you will discover that the ride is smooth bouncy if you are in ohio. now add speed then the ride becomes scary, why? becuse the use of shocks control the vertical movement of the suspension as speed is applied to a vehicles suspension. regardless of leafs or coil the basic design is the same. springs support the weight of the vehicle, shocks control suspension movement. so you use heavy springs (within reasonable limits) and proper dampened shocks (fluid visocity, gas pressure-used to control the expansion of the fluid and VALVING of the shock) this will give you a reasonable and safe ride. lastly and most important, drive beyond the front bumper. by doing this you can avoid those sudden vehicle movements needed to avoid someone who is driving as far as his gage panel and this should keep you from falling over. and as noted already anti-roll (sway) bars, shocks and springs won't keep you from rolling over if you have your head up your ace.

By p m on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 07:25 pm: Edit

Milan,

shocks and springs must be matched.

two cases of mis-matched springs and shocks:

soft springs and stiff shocks. Acceptable, but you will feel every bump, your truck will lean a lot in turns, and if you ride it hard, you will eventually break the shock mounts. Example: Fox shocks and OEM (stock) springs.

stiff springs and soft shocks:
the truck will be very bouncy, a lot of wheel hop off road, and every pothole in a turn will send it sliding. Example: OME HD springs and stock shocks. Even OME shocks are too soft for HD springs. Bilsteins match okay, but the ride quality will suffer.

peter

By PerroneFord on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 07:29 pm: Edit

Man this went downhill in a hurry. Most trucks sold here in the states are undersprung. That's why the aftermarket spring and shock market is so big. RRC springs are WAY to soft. So swaybars and the SLU are used to correct it. When the shocks go, so does the handling.

For vehicles with proper spring rates, installing stiffer shocks will tighten up the handling quite a bit. If the springs are too soft (like stock LR springs in the RRC and D1), then uprating the springs AND shocks is necessary.

I've gone through so many springs trying to figure out what rates work best for me on and off-road. I also did a lot of swapping when I was talking to John at RTE about spring rates and testing his springs.

Sorry to get this started on such a bad path.

-P

By Kyle on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Milan , the sway bars keep the body from rolling not swaying. Swaying is from side to side. When the body rolls to one side or the other that means a spring and shock are compressed. The stiffer the shock the slower this will happen. The stiffer the spring the less it will happen. You can no believe thats how it is all you like. It still how it is. As Mike has said though its really all up to the driver in the end...


Kyle

By Craig on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 07:33 pm: Edit

Peter-
OME has two different shocks available for D1's. The most common shocks everyone seems to use are the n45f front and n46 rears. There are firmer shocks in the same application available through OME. Fronts are n115 and rears are n44.
so- No, OME's are not too soft, rather many rigs are just using the wrong shock for that particular application. ie.. Ome heavy's all around and not enough weight to justify them while using the n45f's and n46's. These rigs need the firmer part numbers-
Craig

By D Cantrell (Discodad) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 07:37 pm: Edit

I agree with Reid get some disconnects,

Do a Google search on Tractor hitch pins and find a set for under 25.00. I did find some nice big red handled ones.

Or pay 95+ to the popular vendor posted here for there set Ouch. 95+ for 3.50 worth of round stock.

I know profit overhead and such, everyone is rich who drives a Land Rover so sucker them.

As far as not having them installed, My 88 NAS Ranggie was basically an older Disco I with a flat roof.

It did not come equipped with Anti Roll Bars (Sway Bars for short). Major wander and sway when quick and rapid turns were executed, Kind of reminded me of a My Old Winnebago but shorter.

Once I installed the OME HD's and Bilstiens. I did not hold my breath as often when rapid movements were executed. The Dog liked it better also.

Soap Box Time.

In California (AKA The Peoples Republic of California) the window is getting smaller and smaller for Car and 4x4 enthusiasts to work on or modify there vehicles.
Most back yard wrenches have a disregard of why things like Anti Roll Bars were installed in the first place.
Look at how high the center of gravity is on the Disco also its short wheel base and beam. Then throw hundred + pounds of cargo on top, got to have the spare up there also
3 passengers inside plus a dog in the back (Great Dane) preferred, reduce fuel to 1/2 tank, Last factor in some miles on all the bushings nice and loose, tires wear,road conditions.

Then do the sway bar test.

The Point being, modify all you like but keep it off the road if it is not SAFE, remember cause and effect in all modifications.

Off the Soap Box now.

By Milan on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 07:41 pm: Edit

Peter,
You're right. That's what I said too.

mike,
I never said it was the absolute key and I did talk about how they're supposed to be matched otherwise you get what Peter discribed. Now for leaf vs. coil you're right except that leafs were typically of stiffer rate to being with. If you put stiffer springs in with stiffer shocks, yes you will get better ride out of those shock as the stronger spings can cycle the shocks better, providing the springs are soft enough for the suspension to work. You will also lean less in corners and now it will be due to not just the shocks but the springs as well. To make it lean less you can again put in even stiffer springs or stiffer shocks. To make it ride well, they should match. Eventually you can have your suspension so stiff, it won't lean much and it will be great on smooth pavement but you'll feel every bump. Now we're back to that sports car thing. I think we're going in circles now, so I'll stop here.

Great discussion.

By mike w on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 07:53 pm: Edit

yes and no milan i said that over dampened shocks, your stiffer shocks will destroy the quality of the ride, stiffer springs will control the weight of the vehicle and its load. over dampened shocks and springs designed for an Abrams will cause a harsh ass ride and will (because of the high center of gravity) will cause your disco to discover how much paint you can leave on the pavement. springs which have a rate and capacity for the vehicle and its load and shocks with the PROPER dampening speed required to stablize the suspension movement is the BASICs. the key is back to the brain and foot. the combination of proper vehicle set up and driver control will limit roll. so yes milan we are all right and we are all always wrong and i have almost caught my tail!

By p m on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 08:11 pm: Edit

the multi-leaf springs have intrinsic dampening properties - the leaves rub against each other as spring compresses or extends. one reason many old big trucks never had rear shocks at all.

speaking of whether coils are stiffer or softer than leafers, my jeep's leaf springs are much softer than my disco's, with jeep weighing maybe 500lb over the disco. Guess what rides smoother?

hehehe

peter

By Ricky Smart (Rikstaboogie) on Monday, December 10, 2001 - 02:24 pm: Edit

its just a thought but in the uk the very first disco's (TDI 200) wern't fitted with anti roll bars. Part of the change from 200 tdi to 300 tdi included the 'Anti roll bar'. so surly the addition is there for a purpose??