By Jim on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 05:34 pm: Edit

There was some talk a while back about extended stainless brake lines being available or not being available for the Disco. Did anyone ever do anything with that?

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 05:36 pm: Edit

go here and ask John or Ho about their stainless brake lines:
http://expeditionexchange.com/
ho ho ho

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 05:43 pm: Edit

blue, it wasnt that John , it was John at rovertym , here is the link to his lines..

http://www.rovertym.com/brakeline.htm

rd

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Yes, Rob, RTE may carry them...but I repeat, go here & ask: http://expeditionexchange.com/
I believe they are also available here.

By Kyle on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 06:03 pm: Edit

I think what Jim was asking was about a thread that came up awhile back. John at Rovertym was talking about doing them and did. Rob included the link , what I am not sure of is that price of 40 bucks. Is that for each line ? John and Ho have them as well now for 22 bucks each... So there are slinky lines galore.......lol


Kyle

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 06:21 pm: Edit

Yeah, I followed Rob's link and see that RTE is carrying them. So RTE & EE are both carrying them now? Cool...the list of aftermarket Rover suppliers is expanding...

By Kyle on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 07:38 pm: Edit

God damn , I just hit that link again and it seems JJs lines dropped 18 bucks in 45 minutes...That dont smell right......


Kyle

By Ron on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 07:44 pm: Edit

Its like lobster . . .

Market price

Ron

By Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 07:46 pm: Edit

capitalism

By r0ver on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 07:46 pm: Edit

That is funny

By Kyle on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 07:54 pm: Edit

Here is the link to the Lines from EE... it seems they have changed YOUR market...
http://www.expeditionexchange.com/paragon/

Kyle

By Mud Man (Clarance) on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 09:07 pm: Edit

the EE lines dont fit D2s. I got real happy when i saw the price.

By Kyle on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 10:01 pm: Edit

They will have them very shortly from what I gather..


Kyle

By Jim on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 12:23 pm: Edit

Are the EE lines any different from the RTE lines?
Funny to see how price gouging goes on everywhere.

By John Lee on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 02:07 pm: Edit

Jim,

The EE brake hoses are made by Paragon Performance in Lake Arrowhead, California. Paragon is well known in racing circles for quality performance hoses and fittings. Here's Paragon's website if you want to look at Paragon's other products and get a feel for Paragon's products in general: http://www.paragonperformance.com

I don't know who makes the RTE hoses, so I wouldn't know how they differ, if at all, from the Paragon Performance hoses.

By D Cantrell (Discodad) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 02:29 pm: Edit

John,

My understanding only 2 manufactures of hoses
Earls and Paragon paragon sells the whole assembly only to resellers and privately. And is DOT approved

EE has a better price, The capitalism thing.
Ho where's my bill I want a set

Earls sell complete DOT approved from there San Diego location also sells all the sub assemblies to resellers to make there own custom stuff. It is the same process but the resellers can not sell them as DOT approved if made locally.

If I am wrong let me know

DD

By John Lee on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Dee,

I believe there are more than two brake hose manufacturers. Russell Performance is another hose maker for sure. There are probably others as well, but I am informed that there are only a handful of actual stainless hose manufacturers in the USA and that all of various brake hose makers get their hoses from the same places.

The Earl's hoses I've seen like the commonly used RW199 hose for Land Rover applications are marked DOT approved. The Paragon hoses are not DOT approved. I've cut apart the Earl's hoses and the Paragon hoses and as far as I can tell, they are the same hose: fine stainless steel braided outer skin bonded to a teflon inner tube.

Note that the hose companies police themselves and conduct their own DOT testing according to DOT guidelines. There is no submission to the DOT of each hose for testing. Paragon tested its stainless brake hoses pursuant to DOT guidelines and found that they did not conform to one DOT specification: the twist test where the hose is put in an eccentric rotating machine and both ends of each hose are rotated on different axes. Imagine the crank arms on a bicycle with the brake hose being the two crank arms and the axle, and eccentric machine is the two pedals. Under such a test, Paragon's stainless braided brake hoses fail because they are bent repeatedly and the stainless braids give, sort of like a clothes hanger that is bent back and forth until the material gets hot and breaks. This test is required for DOT certification and the rubber brake hoses pass this test easily, even though the rubber hoses are far weaker than the stainless braided hoses. I guess the reason is because the rubber is more pliable than the stainless braided hoses. This doesn't concern me because the brake hoses on my truck never see that kind of twisting action.

I have no idea how Earl's rates its hoses as DOT approved when the hose material is the same material used by Paragon Peformance. I'm not accusing Earl's of foul play or false certification or whatever. I'm just saying I don't know Earl's does it. Paragon just prefers to rate its hoses as non-DOT approved because its tests show that its stainless hoses do not pass all portions of the DOT tests.

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 04:02 pm: Edit

As John said above - the DOT testing and certifcation is done by the hose manufacturers and as long as the outfit crimping them is using the specified press, fittings and crimp specs and QC'ing them to the appropriate level - then that certification passes along.


Copy of old post below I made when this came up before:


Domestic TFE hose manufacturers are Dana-Everflex, Teleflex, Titeflex, Aeroquip, and Weatherhead ( Weatherhead - I think - but they might just purchase their TFE hose and resell it - not certain because it is the only line I don't distribute) The swaging presses are made by fewer manufacturers even and they are all rebadged with the hose OEM's name - there are two methods of coupling -swaging and crimping - swage is neater, crimp is easier and faster, but looks crappy. All use different dies for each diameter. And you're right - the presses are not particularly expensive.

As far as coupling goes - the smaller the size, the more a PIA it is - less so if you crimp vs. swage (have done thousands of the bastards )

OK - teflon hose coupling 101 is adjourned.....

BTW - most of the cost of the premade assy's is the DOT certification and 100% testing required on the finished products - the hose and fittings themselves cost very little in the sizes we're talking about

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 04:07 pm: Edit

Oh yeah - also - the rubber hoses are rated to the same working pressure as the braided TFE ones and frankly outperform in most conditons taht affect our kind of off road driving. The only real advantage of the TFE hoses is that they don't swell as much under pressure (leading to a firmer pedal feel) and under race conditions (high temperature) perform much better due to the temp. resistance of TFE versus any elastomer.

If I had a choice - I'd actually prefer longer (slightly)rubber lines than teflon ones for what we do with them. The downside would be the longer the line the more the swell under pressure.

Bill

By John Lee on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 04:24 pm: Edit

Bill,

"there are two methods of coupling -swaging and crimping - swage is neater, crimp is easier and faster, but looks crappy."

I actually prefer the crimp look to the swaged. We had a choice when we were getting the Paragon hoses made, and we chose crimp because it looked more uniform and consistent from hose to hose. The Earl's hoses that I had on my truck were swaged, and the silver zinc plating on the fittings was rubbed off from the swaging process and exposed the brass underneath. Paragon told us that the crimped and swaged fittings had equal strength, so we ended up going with the crimped ends for a better appearance.

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 04:48 pm: Edit

John

You're right - the swaging will take off any finish. I use mostly stainless fittings and my use is industrial, so worrying about a finish is not a factor If the swage was done correctly though, it looks much neater than any crimp - again based on doing it right with the right equipment/etc - yada, yada, yada.

By JCC on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 06:05 pm: Edit

How difficult is it to replace the factory brake lines with these longer ones? Is bleeding the brakes involved or is it just "plug and play"?

Justin

By Ron on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 06:40 pm: Edit

You need to bleed but it was not hard (in my experience)

ROn

I hate earls lines

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 07:17 pm: Edit

if you clamp and are careful, you could get by with just purging (or bleeding) the air space from the new line lengths as opposed to a full system bleed, no?

By Kyle on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 07:19 pm: Edit

No need Blue , and the flush doesnt hurt it any..

Kyle

By mike w on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 07:33 pm: Edit

i have an interseting thought. on my race bikes we were able to purchase differnt I.D. hoses. this changed the feel on the lever from mush to the razor's edge. has anyone seen or know if this difference would be the same. just something to ponder over.

By Kyle on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 07:47 pm: Edit

It would have some change , but those dual pistons need some volume..

Kyle

By Mike B. on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 08:22 pm: Edit

I've got a set of Earl's brake lines and I am not impressed. The fittings on the ends rusted a bit even before I put them on. I've been hesitant to put them on for fear they will rust on the brake fittings making their future removal impossible.

Also, I heard that the DOT brake lines need an abrasion resistor (plastic sleeve) between the braided line and the crimped on end to pass the DOT certification (Off-Road magazine, July 2001, Page 42). Clearly Earl's is missing this plastic sleeve on mine, but they are sporting the DOT certification number.

Thanks,
Mike B.

By Jim on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Wow! Great information all around. RTE's silence on this topic is deafening and the sudden lowering in price from $40 to $22 doesn't sit right with me at all. I think Santa will be delivering some EE brake hoses.

By Ron on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 09:02 pm: Edit

Why is it unsettling?

Ron

By p m on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 09:27 pm: Edit

RTE's silence -

LOL, i can only imagine what it takes to be a vendor of a rover product nowadays...
would take a whole day to flip through all the threads on all boards just to find if there's anyone holding a grudge against ya...

peter

By D Cantrell (Discodad) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 11:51 pm: Edit

DITO to the EARLS,
I had a earls front hose burst on me crossing the Chesapeake bay bridge in rush hour fun driving with the parking brake on a Toyota PU in rush hour

John, Paragon told me there stuff was DOT?

For abrasion protection wrap with some wire loom protection it is similar to the warp that in on the AC hoses, and the PS hoses, NAPA carries it

By Ron on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 11:55 pm: Edit

PP has non DOT and DOT lines. I have non DOT ones and am happy. I believe this is what EE sells. The DOT ones have this flange type deal on them to pass the whip test.

Ron

PP rules, earls crap!

By D Cantrell (Discodad) on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 12:19 am: Edit

Thanks Ron

DD

By Tom P. on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 09:57 am: Edit

I have the paragon DOT lines. These were the initial lines Paragon made when starting to enter the Rover market. They do not have swivel fittings as Paragon believed this to be a potential leak path. They have a kevlar sheath between the SS braid and the teflon tubing. This is what allows them to pass the DOT whip test.

FWIW, I have not installed the front lines as they did not fit the stock brake hose hanger. For the short term. I'm just running a set of earl's.

For an OME lift, typical SS extended lines are much longer than you really need. The Earl's lines come way too close to the tire for my liking. I plan to make a new brake hose hanger to accept the paragon fitting and move the mount a bit higher, then install the Paragon front lines when I get time to tinker with it...

IMHO, if you compare a stock line to a wanker SS extended line, the Stock line is much better. The only thing equivalent or marginally better (to stock) would be the PP DOT lines w/kevlar. This opinion will probably only make Kyle smile though...

Tom Proctor
96 Disco

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 10:32 am: Edit

Tom -yep, exactly - same reason I said above that if I had my choice I'd just get longer RUBBER lines and be done with it.

By John Lee on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 12:04 pm: Edit

Dee - Tom is correct. The Paragon DOT hoses are a three-layer design with teflon inner tube, kevlar middle layer, and stainless braid on the outside. This is a true DOT hose and not some stainless hose that is simply labeled "DOT". We thought about using this three-layer hose for our brake hoses, but the cost was prohibitive and the resulting market price would have been very high, all without any real gain in performance over the two-layer hose.

Tom - I wonder what female connector is attached to your PP front hoses. The ones on ours are the non-swiveling type as well, but they fit the Disco's stock mounts.

By Kyle on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 12:15 pm: Edit

Maybe thats the Hoses JJ is selling ? ANyone know ? That would be a good reason for that price being so damn high...


Kyle

By Tom P. on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 01:27 pm: Edit

>Tom - I wonder what female connector is attached to your PP front hoses?

I couldn't tell you John. They fit the thread diameter/pitch fine, but the area around the nut portion of the fitting is smaller OD. Also remember that these were some of the first Disco lines PP made, based on Earls samples I gave him.

I can probably find some clips at at 4WD shop, so I can fix them to a new, slightly raised bracket.

Tom Proctor
96 Disco