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Old 10-17-2017, 01:33 PM   #326
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Default Re: Kneeling NFL players

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Ah, so you have experience in the sector and know it to be good and faithful to the interests of the rank and file; now I feel better-all that data that points out the truth of what I said is clearly false. The fact that we pay more for less as a nation is definitely not true.
What you have overlooked Ray, or, decided not to comment on is the fact I have dealt with and been insured by very small, medium and very large insurance group policies. I have personal experience with The Travelers, Aetna, Blue Cross Blue Shield, Prudential and United while never lapsing in coverage, not even for one day. If you take the time and read the EO you may see how it would help given the big pile of shit we've gotten ourselves into. Now, given your government through and though I would guess you have little to no personal experience with business Group Health plans, correct? Sometimes the one with experience that's been insured living with a major health problem may have a better take on the EO than, let's say, the run of the mill NYT article written and designed for click-bait. I'd think long and hard about which opinions you listen to and whom their deriving from if I were you Ray.

Here, take some time. Directly from the horses mouth. Not CNN, not Fox News, just facts.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...nd-competition
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:11 PM   #327
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So... talk to me about how good healthcare is in the rest of the world you tarts. I witness it with my wife's family in the UK. Little things are easy. You want a hip/knee replacement when you need it and you're paying out of pocket. Keep acting like government healthcare is so great.

And since you love facts. I assume you're getting info from this garbage. http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publ...strative-costs

From their own study.
"Other limitations are that there is no international standard for hospital cost accounting, and that our alignment of categories was imperfect. Our analysis allocated some capital costs to administration, based on the administration share of operating expenses. Our analysis handled capital costs uniformly across the eight nations. However, it should be noted that Dutch hospitals? capital costs are higher than those in the United States, and about double those of the other European nations.

Our data do not address the question of which components of administrative spending drive international differences. However, fragmentary data from other sources suggest that a larger number of managers and clerical workers?not differences in wage levels, benefit costs, or nonwage costs?explains much or all of the higher administrative costs in US hospitals compared to hospitals in the other nations we studied."

So basically garbage stat to say one quarter. Then you look at their appendix of what goes into their administrative costs. Salaries is one of the things. Want to know why those other nations don't have happy employees working for them and are going to end up struggling to fill doctor positions in the future. It's called not paying people enough money. The didn't give enough info as to how much of insurance goes into their mixed administrative and clinical costs. I can only imagine that is higher in the US with all the idiots who jump on lawsuits to get their cut of someone else's misfortune under the knife/care of a physician.

But absolutely, if you guys want to pay 16% of your paycheck to the government for universal shitty care do so. After all $16k out of your $100k hurts a lot less than $3.2k out of $20k for the poor folks. But fuck those guys, right?
Matt-
So when you read academic studies and they lay out where their limitations are that doesn't mean they don't have merit-it means they show their work.

Show me that with your proposed solutions...do you have any of those?

Even the caveat doesn't sidestep the point that we pay more, in part, for uneven healthcare because it has turned into a jobs program for administration for the sake of administration. You champion not being a company man and such (as if you aren't) but in the end you think our healthcare is going to get better when corporate interest, and their associated lobbying efforts, weave a bureaucracy that makes DoD's look agile?

As far as the rest of the world the UK is a great example of one place, kinda like Brian's example is about his experience-not experience writ large, just his experience.
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:15 PM   #328
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What you have overlooked Ray, or, decided not to comment on is the fact I have dealt with and been insured by very small, medium and very large insurance group policies. I have personal experience with The Travelers, Aetna, Blue Cross Blue Shield, Prudential and United while never lapsing in coverage, not even for one day. If you take the time and read the EO you may see how it would help given the big pile of shit we've gotten ourselves into. Now, given your government through and though I would guess you have little to no personal experience with business Group Health plans, correct? Sometimes the one with experience that's been insured living with a major health problem may have a better take on the EO than, let's say, the run of the mill NYT article written and designed for click-bait. I'd think long and hard about which opinions you listen to and whom their deriving from if I were you Ray.

Here, take some time. Directly from the horses mouth. Not CNN, not Fox News, just facts.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...nd-competition
Brian-
This may come as a shock, but just because I'm gov't property doesn't mean that I interact only with folks that are gov't property too, Brian. Oddly enough I interact with all manner of citizenry across the spectrum of health care coverage. Some have experiences like your individual experience. Many do not, Brian.

It is great that you have your experience. There about 330M other folks that have those too, in some form or fashion, yours is just unique to you-and it doesn't appear that you process that data regarding how things are in the macro very well. Brian.

So, Brian, the fact remains that as a nation we pay a lot to get less-and your EO isn't likely to help that for the nation as a whole, regardless of your experience individually or what Rush told you on conservative snowflake radio.

Brian.
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:26 PM   #329
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Default Re: Kneeling NFL players

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Brian-
This may come as a shock, but just because I'm gov't property doesn't mean that I interact only with folks that are gov't property too, Brian. Oddly enough I interact with all manner of citizenry across the spectrum of health care coverage. Some have experiences like your individual experience. Many do not, Brian.

It is great that you have your experience. There about 330M other folks that have those too, in some form or fashion, yours is just unique to you-and it doesn't appear that you process that data regarding how things are in the macro very well. Brian.

So, Brian, the fact remains that as a nation we pay a lot to get less-and your EO isn't likely to help that for the nation as a whole, regardless of your experience individually or what Rush told you on conservative snowflake radio.

Brian.
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Ray
And there you have it folks. Willful ignorance and unwilling to educate themselves. It's pretty basic Ray. There are Corporate Group Policies that work VERY well right now. The EO tries to mimic what we're doing right. It's something to try before this situation gets even worse. To not like this for Political reasoning is simply absurd. True Colors Ray. Maybe you should go reup your NYT and WAPO subscriptions? I hear there are offering some great deals right now.

Did you even read the EO Ray?
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Old 10-17-2017, 03:02 PM   #330
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And there you have it folks. Willful ignorance and unwilling to educate themselves. It's pretty basic Ray. There are Corporate Group Policies that work VERY well right now. The EO tries to mimic what we're doing right. It's something to try before this situation gets even worse. To not like this for Political reasoning is simply absurd. True Colors Ray. Maybe you should go reup your NYT and WAPO subscriptions? I hear there are offering some great deals right now.

Did you even read the EO Ray?
If they work so well, why do their premiums continue to go up at 2-3x GDP?

Why are companies shifting away from PPOs, etc. to high deductible plans?

Why are companies shedding retiree health insurance as fast as possible?

I guess when you have insurance, and most of it is paid by your company, you can safely say, the "Corporate Group Policies that work VERY well right now."

Basically - I've got mine, fuck everyone else.

No wonder you think Trump is a great president and everything he does is winning.
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Old 10-17-2017, 03:12 PM   #331
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If they work so well, why do their premiums continue to go up at 2-3x GDP?

Why are companies shifting away from PPOs, etc. to high deductible plans?

Why are companies shedding retiree health insurance as fast as possible?

I guess when you have insurance, and most of it is paid by your company, you can safely say, the "Corporate Group Policies that work VERY well right now."

Basically - I've got mine, fuck everyone else.

No wonder you think Trump is a great president and everything he does is winning.
Scott, you read the EO as well. Large corporate plans are seeing none of this because of the same concept Obama tried but failed, power in numbers. These are the Gold standard plans that employees that make 30K a year have access to and are covered by. Crazy, I know! This is what the EO aims at doing. Rand is on the money here.

Either way, I'm not going to convince you, or Ray. Lost cause I'm guessing.

Talk to me again after you've read it top to bottom and tell me specifically won't work and why, how about that?
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Old 10-17-2017, 03:35 PM   #332
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Default Re: Kneeling NFL players

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I wish that statement was funny but unfortunately CNN aint the only organization reporting the utter goat-fuck thats going on there.
I like the part where the officials who are doing the complaining are the same ones caught steeling the supplies sent to aide for themselves.
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Old 10-17-2017, 03:35 PM   #333
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I'm curious, what is an example of a win in the past week? One specific action.
https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/10/10/na...s-stand-update
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Old 10-17-2017, 03:47 PM   #334
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This is what real winning looks like.
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Old 10-17-2017, 04:58 PM   #335
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Scott, you read the EO as well. Large corporate plans are seeing none of this because of the same concept Obama tried but failed, power in numbers. These are the Gold standard plans that employees that make 30K a year have access to and are covered by. Crazy, I know! This is what the EO aims at doing. Rand is on the money here.

Either way, I'm not going to convince you, or Ray. Lost cause I'm guessing.

Talk to me again after you've read it top to bottom and tell me specifically won't work and why, how about that?
Large corporate plans aren't seeing 2-3x GDP costs rising? Wrong.

The EO? allowing large groups of people to buy into collective plans...hmmm...Isn't that what the healthcare exchanges are? They exactly are that. If what you are espousing to be the magic solution (Allow people to join healthcare plans in large numbers), why are you against the ACA, which is just that?

The Trump administration claims that it offers lower premiums...because the requirements for the plans are much less. Seems reasonable: offer less coverage, charge lower premiums. But the cost is still the same - it just comes out of the persons pocket.
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Fitness to lead. This is what you wanted. Now you have it.
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Old 10-17-2017, 05:01 PM   #336
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This is what real winning looks like.
That's it? That's all the winning that's happened?

Wow...it's blowing over- basically back to the number of players kneeling before Trump spoke. So no real movement or change.

And if that's what you consider a win? You might want to look around a bit, there are a few more important things that need attending to than what some athletes do before a game.
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Fitness to lead. This is what you wanted. Now you have it.
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Old 10-17-2017, 05:07 PM   #337
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That's show business. Any wins for Americans?
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Old 10-17-2017, 05:34 PM   #338
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Social issues should be legislated? I thought that was what liberals do?
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Old 10-17-2017, 05:37 PM   #339
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That's show business. Any wins for Americans?
Be patient. We're going to be winning so much you're gonna cream your jeans
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Old 10-17-2017, 05:54 PM   #340
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Large corporate plans aren't seeing 2-3x GDP costs rising? Wrong.

The EO? allowing large groups of people to buy into collective plans...hmmm...Isn't that what the healthcare exchanges are? They exactly are that. If what you are espousing to be the magic solution (Allow people to join healthcare plans in large numbers), why are you against the ACA, which is just that?

The Trump administration claims that it offers lower premiums...because the requirements for the plans are much less. Seems reasonable: offer less coverage, charge lower premiums. But the cost is still the same - it just comes out of the persons pocket.
First, your article is from 2009. Second, nowhere does it mention the cost difference compared to group size. Keep swinging, and missing Scott.

We see our insurer on an extremely constant basis trying to save money, it's the little things I notice. The problem is systemic, and contrary to what Ray thinks, is much deeper than insurance companies being greedy. Let's examine why ambulance rides are $500 or $100 per mile, or an aspirin is $45. Hmmmmmmmm
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:29 PM   #341
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I like the part where the officials who are doing the complaining are the same ones caught steeling the supplies sent to aide for themselves.
Yeah - so you agree, it?s fucked up.
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Old 10-18-2017, 02:15 AM   #342
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Matt-
So when you read academic studies and they lay out where their limitations are that doesn't mean they don't have merit-it means they show their work.
It means it's not settled science no matter how many times you tell yourself it is. Keep picking and choosing your facts and you'll always be right.

And the UK being used as an example is perfectly acceptable when it's one of the few used in your precious research no matter how much yoou try to minimize it's importance.
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Old 10-18-2017, 07:48 AM   #343
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It means it's not settled science no matter how many times you tell yourself it is. Keep picking and choosing your facts and you'll always be right.

And the UK being used as an example is perfectly acceptable when it's one of the few used in your precious research no matter how much yoou try to minimize it's importance.
Easy tiger; nobody's picking and choosing facts-just highlighting the substantive research that has been done. (Anytime you want to post your own, about anything-jump in. Far easier to critique than to actually post something substantive on your own).

Of course it isn't settled science. There is no such thing. It merely is illustrative of where the evidence points. You use the same mitigating arguments about a number of other issues where science is involved (climate change, for example)-both misrepresenting what academic caveating is (a strength, not a weakness) and never actually putting out a substantive view of your own.

When you want to counter it, roll out your evidence. Otherwise, I'll return back to the facts as they appear at the moment: we pay more for less than anywhere else, and a lot of that is due to self inflicted wounds at the hands of corporate infrastructure and lobbyists that make the NRA look tame. Is the UK a valid example of the good, and bad? Sure-but it is a mixed bag and not the only example anymore than any other public policy in the UK can be illustrative of something different than the US.
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Old 10-18-2017, 07:52 AM   #344
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This is what real winning looks like.
May want to update your news sources. Article was from the 10th. Here's what actually happened yesterday (no rule change, just people trying to move past the distraction tweeted out): https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/10/17/nf...hem-discussion
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Old 10-18-2017, 08:01 AM   #345
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And there you have it folks. Willful ignorance and unwilling to educate themselves. It's pretty basic Ray. There are Corporate Group Policies that work VERY well right now. The EO tries to mimic what we're doing right. It's something to try before this situation gets even worse. To not like this for Political reasoning is simply absurd. True Colors Ray. Maybe you should go reup your NYT and WAPO subscriptions? I hear there are offering some great deals right now.

Did you even read the EO Ray?
Scott already pointed out that your perspective appears to be borne from your experience and yours alone. Myopic often?

Oh, and the EO. So if you want to discuss the EO, sure, I read it-did you read the part(s) where it continued to say "consistent with the law"?

Who makes the law, Brian?

The fact that you can write that it is trying to do something write about the same administration that is withholding payments in order to see the health care that people are using fail (and have publically stated as much) at the same time is amusing-except for those that count on their health care. Brian.

I know you aren't worried though, the EO will fix that.

Simply put the EO won't have the same effect that a substantive revision to public policy would (aka fixing the law, regardless of replace/repeal or modification) because it simply can't achieve the same scope and breadth-and that is woven into the EO itself.

That's aside from returning to the hypocrisy inherent with an EO, Brian. You remember that commentary-right, but its different? (do we need to roll out the tired commentary of 7 years of talking about something but having no plan makes the GOP a fraud? I know Matt argues they should get a pass for that b/c you should be able to use it as a platform plank but to actually be held accountable is too much).

To not see this is a mere politics is absurd, to your point about liking it or not.

So yeah, I read the EO. Still waiting to be tired of winning.
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Old 10-18-2017, 08:46 AM   #346
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First, your article is from 2009. Second, nowhere does it mention the cost difference compared to group size. Keep swinging, and missing Scott.

We see our insurer on an extremely constant basis trying to save money, it's the little things I notice. The problem is systemic, and contrary to what Ray thinks, is much deeper than insurance companies being greedy. Let's examine why ambulance rides are $500 or $100 per mile, or an aspirin is $45. Hmmmmmmmm
Here. From 2018. Healthcare costs have been increasing annually between 6-9% since 2009. GDP has been 2-3%/year....2-3x

https://www.pwc.com/us/en/health-ind...e-numbers.html

And what have I been saying (you can go back and look)? Claiming everyone has insurance, or providing subsidies, or whatever, doesn't change the fact that it costs north of $10k/year for insurance per person. That is directly related to costs (see also the PWC article). The only way to SIGNIFICANTLY affect costs is to have a very large and dominant organization having the power to set prices with hospitals, Drs, etc. One current example of that is Medicare.

That, logically, leads one to the conclusion that the only want to significantly control costs is to go to single payer.

I've been saying that for well over a year.
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:18 AM   #347
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Scott already pointed out that your perspective appears to be borne from your experience and yours alone. Myopic often?

Oh, and the EO. So if you want to discuss the EO, sure, I read it-did you read the part(s) where it continued to say "consistent with the law"?

Who makes the law, Brian?

The fact that you can write that it is trying to do something write about the same administration that is withholding payments in order to see the health care that people are using fail (and have publically stated as much) at the same time is amusing-except for those that count on their health care. Brian.

I know you aren't worried though, the EO will fix that.

Simply put the EO won't have the same effect that a substantive revision to public policy would (aka fixing the law, regardless of replace/repeal or modification) because it simply can't achieve the same scope and breadth-and that is woven into the EO itself.

That's aside from returning to the hypocrisy inherent with an EO, Brian. You remember that commentary-right, but its different? (do we need to roll out the tired commentary of 7 years of talking about something but having no plan makes the GOP a fraud? I know Matt argues they should get a pass for that b/c you should be able to use it as a platform plank but to actually be held accountable is too much).

To not see this is a mere politics is absurd, to your point about liking it or not.

So yeah, I read the EO. Still waiting to be tired of winning.
Ray, you're in over your head here.

Fact: Major Group plans saw a 5% premium increase in 2016

Fact: ACA plans saw anywhere from a 250% - 480% increase in premiums in 2016

It's a two fold problem and large group plans drastically reduce premiums, FACT.

This debate is over on my end, we'll let it play out and I'll talk about it again once more winning happens.

Oh, if the Republicans can get Rand on board looks like Tax overhaul may happen. Good stuff for America. Doubt we'll get the lemmings on the other side to partake though.
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:19 AM   #348
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Here. From 2018. Healthcare costs have been increasing annually between 6-9% since 2009. GDP has been 2-3%/year....2-3x

https://www.pwc.com/us/en/health-ind...e-numbers.html

And what have I been saying (you can go back and look)? Claiming everyone has insurance, or providing subsidies, or whatever, doesn't change the fact that it costs north of $10k/year for insurance per person. That is directly related to costs (see also the PWC article). The only way to SIGNIFICANTLY affect costs is to have a very large and dominant organization having the power to set prices with hospitals, Drs, etc. One current example of that is Medicare.

That, logically, leads one to the conclusion that the only want to significantly control costs is to go to single payer.

I've been saying that for well over a year.
Read what I wrote Ray. This is all noise from the side that fucked us to begin with. If there would be a double fuck it would be called single-payer. Let's take away options to choose, very American. (Sarcasm, Scott).
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:22 AM   #349
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Ray, you're in over your head here.

Fact: Major Group plans saw a 5% premium increase in 2016

Fact: ACA plans saw anywhere from a 250% - 480% increase in premiums in 2016

It's a two fold problem and large group plans drastically reduce premiums, FACT.

This debate is over on my end, we'll let it play out and I'll talk about it again once more winning happens.

Oh, if the Republicans can get Rand on board looks like Tax overhaul may happen. Good stuff for America. Doubt we'll get the lemmings on the other side to partake though.
You have declared the debate to be over till winning happens. Cool. We won't have to talk about this again, since everyone is losing-and the people in charge won't hold themselves accountable.

Fact.

Regarding taxes; don't count your chickens too soon-and not getting the other side to partake shouldn't be championed as an accomplishment...as that's not called democracy, and it's exactly what you are bitching about when it comes to the ACA right?

You got a long road on tax reform, and I'd be worried about the results except that the stunning incompetence thus far has made for little real effect and the forecast for that isn't getting any better.

Check back in when you have a win or two under the belt please.
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Old 10-18-2017, 12:07 PM   #350
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Default Re: Kneeling NFL players

The debate over private vs public services is tired and old as dirt. I'd prefer single-payer (single bureaucracy) over multi-private (multiple redundant bureaucracy), but would settle for the latter as it's still likely superior to the current mess. If only the pussies in office would start winning we might be in a better situation (an actual win).

Funny how those who claim "win" are incapable of identifying an actual action which results in a win for Americans. I'm sure it's all about the long game..
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