Kneeling NFL players

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
How many people, do you know, would spend 6-8 years in university then work long hours for $30 per hour?

Service industry business model is low profit high volume. Pay employees just enough they won't quit.

Personally I don't want the cheapest proctologist, I want the best.,,,having big thick fingers doesn't hurt.

somehow we need to get the profit out of healthcare.

Take profit out of health care and you don't have health care. Period. End of story. There is no debate.

So, everyone can shut the fuck up about it now if they have even the slightest amount of sense.

There is a way to fix the system that's already proven itself here in our own nation, and it works very well, but people want to ignore it. So, I'm not going to bother wearing out my keyboard to explain it to people who don't actually care. They just want something about which to complain and become angry.

...and no, private people/entities with more money than you aren't out to get you. There is no dark, smoky room full of twirling mustaches. Those entities are made up of people with families, dreams, and fears just like everyone else. You want to know greed? It's looking up in hatred; too lazy to grab the ladder right in front of you.

Ain't no sign on it that says "Rockefellers only". You miss that boat, and it's your own damned fault.

You're all being distracted from the actual problems in this nation. Things are changing all around you and all people can do is rehash the same debates that have existed for decades with no concrete solution to repair it all. Nobody seems to care that the Constitution is being shredded, right now; not tomorrow, not in a few years...

It's being torn to confetti and sprinkled around you, and you want to pretend it's snow. We're all pawns now, in line for sacrifice to the almighty god of instant gratification, mob rule, and emotional reactionism.

...and yes, the ACA is dog-shit. Get used to the idea.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
What I've mentioned is that there are power in numbers. Insurance companies grant affordable Gold Standard plans to large corporations. Why? I'd say it's two fold. Leverage in very large numbers and the high end executives are under the same plan, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. That's what Scott doesn't understand and hopefully he'll read this.

What exactly is "affordable Gold Standard plans," in your definition? The couple hundred a month you pay?

Well, that's not the real cost; it's subsidized by your employer. Average annual premiums reached $18,764 for 2017, according to National Conference of State Legislatures.

If you are paying your own way, that works out to more than $1500/mo. Just for the premiums.

Is that your definition of affordable?

Or what is it that the large corporations pay for premiums ever year for their employees? I've worked in Fortune 100 companies for the last 17 years. Since 2005, they've been telling me the premium supports they've been paying have been >$10k/year.

Show us some numbers/data that support your contention that "large pools" will make insurance "affordable" or that they are significantly less than the data I posted.

You are like Trump and Dan - you keep making assertions with no data or other information to back it up.

Like my first boss used to say: In God I trust. Everyone else, bring data.


Now, again, without digging into who/what/when and why, what would be your plan? Think middle road. If it's single payer no need to waste my time with a grandiose explanation on how it's the only way forward. I don't think you will ever see single payer in America during our lives, the high court would most certainly strike it down. The only reason we have the ACA is because the penalty the IRS enforces was branded as a tax. Good luck with single payer and eventually forcing every American to buy insurance. It simply won't happen.

I'll go back to my original statement. If we're going to have one insurance option and no private options I'm all in. However, Trump, congressmen, senators and every other bureaucrat inside the beltway better be on the same identical plan. I don't think that's a lot to ask, do you Ray? Good for the Goose?

How can you say single-payer is a non-starter, yet you are all-in for "one insurance option and no private options", aka single-payer?
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
What exactly is "affordable Gold Standard plans," in your definition? The couple hundred a month you pay?

Well, that's not the real cost; it's subsidized by your employer. Average annual premiums reached $18,764 for 2017, according to National Conference of State Legislatures.

If you are paying your own way, that works out to more than $1500/mo. Just for the premiums.

Is that your definition of affordable?

Or what is it that the large corporations pay for premiums ever year for their employees? I've worked in Fortune 100 companies for the last 17 years. Since 2005, they've been telling me the premium supports they've been paying have been >$10k/year.

Show us some numbers/data that support your contention that "large pools" will make insurance "affordable" or that they are significantly less than the data I posted.

You are like Trump and Dan - you keep making assertions with no data or other information to back it up.

Like my first boss used to say: In God I trust. Everyone else, bring data.




How can you say single-payer is a non-starter, yet you are all-in for "one insurance option and no private options", aka single-payer?

Scott, you're a bit crazy, has anyone ever told you that? You don't read between the lines which tells me you're a number cruncher and most likely don't close deals in the real world. I'm not for single payer and never will be. I only said that I would IF our elected officials sign up. How could you not see where I was going there?

The bottom line is that there is power in numbers when negotiating with these companies Scott. I know you find that hard to believe but negotiating does happen in the real world. These companies would not even be in business to begin with if it weren't for their customers. Don't forget that Scott. Think Unions.
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
Scott, you're a bit crazy, has anyone ever told you that? You don't read between the lines which tells me you're a number cruncher and most likely don't close deals in the real world. I'm not for single payer and never will be. I only said that I would IF our elected officials sign up. How could you not see where I was going there?
LOL. What are you? The "ideas guy?"
See also (skip to 0:40)
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I live in the real world, where things actually have to be put to practice.


The bottom line is that there is power in numbers when negotiating with these companies Scott. I know you find that hard to believe but negotiating does happen in the real world. These companies would not even be in business to begin with if it weren't for their customers. Don't forget that Scott. Think Unions.

You keep saying "Power in numbers" Yet, why has this power in numbers not played out already?

Unions have significantly lower costs than the rest of America? Really? Where's your proof?

Oh, and the unions pay for their own health care? That's news to the auto makers, and every school board in America. And if the union health care was so great, why did the Big Three (doesn't really get much bigger than them) nearly go bankrupt in the 2000s trying to get away from the gold plated health care?

You keep talking out your ass that there's this magic formula that will solve the cost problem, yet you never spell out what it is.
 

kk88rrc

Well-known member
Wondering why. A model like we have for car insurance is not the norm. You have to carry some form of it, it is not subsidized by any govt entity and the companies clearly profit and fight for customers. I know it is late but what am I missing here? Auto repair is not like being a doctor, etc, but from an actuarial standpoint the concept is the same?

I like this idea. "I'm sorry Mr. Smith but the cost of your medical bills will be more than your worth. We will have to total you out. Oh but don't worry, a family member can buy you back & part you out if they want"
Medical costs will go down and the population will be controlled. Winning :D

Will you have to have medical liability too? "Sorry I gave you VD but don't worry my insurance will cover it." or "you gave me a cold.... I'm suing!"
 

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
It has Scott, every day since the birth of our Nation and embracing capitalism. You are Just to dumb to see it I suppose.

You do know that's a version of the truth right, it's a story-it has elements of fact but isn't actually universally true.

The history is far more nuanced, kinda like discussions of the Constitution, the founding fathers, and a whole bunch of other things we only get but so deep into.
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
You do know that's a version of the truth right, it's a story-it has elements of fact but isn't actually universally true.

The history is far more nuanced, kinda like discussions of the Constitution, the founding fathers, and a whole bunch of other things we only get but so deep into.

Let?s do this Ray. In regards to capitalism let?s talk Great Recession forward.
Instead of using words like nuanced give it a personal percentage in your own opinion. I?d personally say my version is 75% true (country built on capitiolism) especially if you factor into this successful/failed legislation and also factor in taxes collected in part by successful private business. Where are you at?

On phone again, pardon the typos
 

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
Let?s do this Ray. In regards to capitalism let?s talk Great Recession forward.
Instead of using words like nuanced give it a personal percentage in your own opinion. I?d personally say my version is 75% true (country built on capitiolism) especially if you factor into this successful/failed legislation and also factor in taxes collected in part by successful private business. Where are you at?

On phone again, pardon the typos

Cool. This is a great way to actually discuss this. I like the mark in the sand from the Great Recession forward-b/c I took exception to the 'birth of the nation' commentary b/c it is all idyllic. And bullshit.

For the sake of discussion, a few other keytimeframes you could tie back to:
-Birth of the country; would water things down as we effectively played in our own shit for ~100years in terms of real economic power.
-America's industrial revolution; when we started to have true potential, globally.
-When we took over the global financial world (from England)*
-Post WWII, though in many ways this is functionally what you said and I think there is merit there.

*I would pick this timeframe, as even though it was pre-BW it still set the stage for us taking control of global financial markets and becoming the benchmark for all currencies to be measured against.

But you set the mark, so let's discuss off that. I'd say it is half true. I give it 50% because the post Great Depression (That's what you meant, right-not the Great Recession from ~2007-2010ish) our growth as a country was far from just capitalism in execution. WWII saw a centralized economy at near full industrial potential, but it wasn't really capitalism. The destruction elsewhere that allowed us to garner economic advantage, in conjunction with the excess industrial capacity and driven by capitalistic urges (all underpinned by two things, the US established global financial order and the military force backing the US established international order-BTW) made us a superpower.

So about half of that comes back to capitalism. As a rough order of magnitude. The other half is other factors, ones that I alluded to.

If you just want to talk post late 2000's I don't think we have enough data to say it is a great deviation from the preceding years.

How much difference is it between 75% and 50%? Depends on how much faith you put in things.
r-
Ray
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
It has Scott, every day since the birth of our Nation and embracing capitalism. You are Just to dumb to see it I suppose.
WTF does this have to do with you telling me larger groups equal lower insurance costs?

Let?s do this Ray. In regards to capitalism let?s talk Great Recession forward.
Instead of using words like nuanced give it a personal percentage in your own opinion. I?d personally say my version is 75% true (country built on capitiolism) especially if you factor into this successful/failed legislation and also factor in taxes collected in part by successful private business. Where are you at?

On phone again, pardon the typos

Once again, you come with no data, no supporting information. Just some blather about the birth of our nation and capitalism (which pre-dated 1776, BTW).

Then you want to get into some kind of symantic argument about "Personal percentage" That's just a way for you to argue with no supporting data/information. You say 75%. Ray says 50%. What if I said 56.439% what the hell does any of that mean any way.

Nothing. It means absolutely nothing about how to fix the health care system in this country. You claim it will (magically).

I again point you to this. You are the Brian in the video (I didn't realize how on point it was). Are you related to Tom Segura?


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emmodg

Well-known member
Apr 17, 2006
4,273
1
I for one and SHOCKED at this blatant disregard for the service of our men and women in the military by these "players"!! Their disrespect for our flag is nothing short of treasonous and god-less!!! I'm behind Comrade Trump 100%!! Just look what he's done for this county EVEN with those horrific bone spurs he's dealt with!! You know full well Donny would have given anything to be with his brothers in arms in Vietnam rather than living comfortably in midtown Manhattan collecting all that rent from his daddy's real estate holdings!!! How dare you impugn the integrity of Donald J. Trump! I'm sure he would have been right beside Sen. McCain in that prison camp enduring torture! Wait a minute! I take that back! Donny would NOT have been beside McCain because he wouldn't have been shot down!!! He would have been a TRUE hero unlike that McCain "guy"! I'm sure Donny would have rather spent many years visiting the Vietnam War Memorial with what COULD have been his fighting brothers but NO! NO, I say!! The horror of the dreaded bone spur had to strike him down!!! The bone spurs that rendered him useless as a soldier and instead forced him to open casinos and golf clubs like so many other of those poor retched millionaires!!! Do you think Comrade Trump really wanted that? Huh? Don't you think Donny would have rather been behind an M16 in the rice fields of South Vietnam rather than behind a desk at that horrible Wharton Business School???

Imagine! All those years of silent grief and rage over the disrespect for the US Flag trapped in Donny's mind while he had to grab the pussies of young women because he was famous!! Imagine the pain locked within Comrade Trump's heart as he was selflessly driven to his reality show set while at the same time these horrible young men dared to kneel at our flag and anthem! How dare these men exercise their rights while Comrade Trump had to spend sleepless nights and tireless days opening golf clubs and taking pictures with those "yucky" young women in beauty pageants! Many of you make me sick! You write these truths about Donald J. Trump while conveniently forgetting his work trying to prove a former president wasn't actually born in the United States!!! Who else was going to do that? Huh? You curse Comrade Trump's rage against such petty ideals like the 1st Amendment while forgetting that while many were protesting the flag, Donald J. Trump had to call into newspapers pretending to be his own publicist!!!!! Just who did you think was going to do this if not Trump?? Huh?? Yes gentleman, Donald J. Draft Dodger Trump may be JUST some billionaire to you all but to me? To me he's what this country stands for: pussy-grabbing-draft-dodging-reality-show-host-three-times-divorced-failed- businessmen!
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Would you care to point us to your proposed solution or it is too much work to give it a name or link?

It's not my solution. It was explained to me by someone who's practiced at and managed some of the best hospitals in the nation for decades; as well as admissions into the associated universities.

I decided it would be fun to argue the situation with him.

He'd be the one to explain it thoroughly, as my own presentation would likely include too many holes for a forum discussion. Part of the presentation that really impressed me was an inside look into how hospitals, doctors, and insurance companies interact, and why it affects our health care experience.

Just look into the various ways concierge medicine is performed. There are a few that pull almost all the inefficiencies out of the system, and provide benefits to all sides by reducing the number of wasteful events and appointments.

I don't remember enough of the details at this point to defend it, so it would indeed be too much work to explain something that doesn't even matter at this point, as I'd have to speak with him at length again and include countless links.

Just explore that world for yourself and come to your own conclusions.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
WTF does this have to do with you telling me larger groups equal lower insurance costs?

Scott, your answer to this next question will directly depend on if I continue it.

What factors are involved/discussed between two parties negotiating group insurance policy purchase or renewal?

Dare I even continue this conversation?

BTW, nobody's watching your videos Scott.
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
Cool. This is a great way to actually discuss this. I like the mark in the sand from the Great Recession forward-b/c I took exception to the 'birth of the nation' commentary b/c it is all idyllic. And bullshit.

For the sake of discussion, a few other keytimeframes you could tie back to:
-Birth of the country; would water things down as we effectively played in our own shit for ~100years in terms of real economic power.
-America's industrial revolution; when we started to have true potential, globally.
-When we took over the global financial world (from England)*
-Post WWII, though in many ways this is functionally what you said and I think there is merit there.

*I would pick this timeframe, as even though it was pre-BW it still set the stage for us taking control of global financial markets and becoming the benchmark for all currencies to be measured against.

But you set the mark, so let's discuss off that. I'd say it is half true. I give it 50% because the post Great Depression (That's what you meant, right-not the Great Recession from ~2007-2010ish) our growth as a country was far from just capitalism in execution. WWII saw a centralized economy at near full industrial potential, but it wasn't really capitalism. The destruction elsewhere that allowed us to garner economic advantage, in conjunction with the excess industrial capacity and driven by capitalistic urges (all underpinned by two things, the US established global financial order and the military force backing the US established international order-BTW) made us a superpower.

So about half of that comes back to capitalism. As a rough order of magnitude. The other half is other factors, ones that I alluded to.

If you just want to talk post late 2000's I don't think we have enough data to say it is a great deviation from the preceding years.

How much difference is it between 75% and 50%? Depends on how much faith you put in things.
r-
Ray

Yes, Great Depression Ray, fat thumbs on the phone. :)


We're only 25% off here, I'd be curious to know how much of the $675 billion collected in 2016 from income tax came from the private sector. It wouldn't be solid but would give us a better idea. I guess the question is the level of government involvement that may be required in health insurance. I often wonder why insurance companies were not allowed to conduct commerce Nationwide to begin with. You happen to know?