$45K Dollar Disco????

YellowIron

Active member
Jan 28, 2018
28
0
Michigan
So just to confirm, and not trying to be a dick, but you've never successfully built one of the vehicles you're advertising?

Not a dick at all, thats a valid thing to bring up.

No I have not, but keep in mind I've never built anything more than once. My whole business model is one off work.

I solicited with terms of escrow'ed funds. Id front it, the escrow fund would get paid into and dispersed at appropriate project milestones. Same like a built to spec structure whether its a house, office building, mall, or whatever else. I wasn't asking for money up front unless a buyer wanted it that way. Some do, but its very rare.

The ones that don't want to bother with the escrow process are the "fuck me and I'll kill ya" types. Not many left like that. Those are my favorite customers though.
 

YellowIron

Active member
Jan 28, 2018
28
0
Michigan
just out of curiosity why a Merc diesel?

as you are rebuilding the engine and in Europe D1s came with a diesel, might be easier to rebuild and install a LR diesel.

had a 300tdi in the 110 while in Brasil and it was a nice engine.

I got a whole 300D with under 100K miles nearly for free. Rather in lieu of unpaid interest on bad debt. The guy paid his balance, was trying to skirt the interest charges, and had his father in law's car tucked away in his barn.

The Merc OM617 revs much higher than a 300TDI, has more displacement, a better injection pump design, and is more reliable. I'm ahead on the 300D part out including labor and have 40% of it still left on the shelves.

I am under $200 on adapters to mate it to an R380. Importing a 300tdi is far more costly. I'll be around $0 with parts sales, rebuild cost, machine shop time including transmission adapter parts, labor to dismantle, handle, and sell off the 300D. Performance mods should stay under $1000 and get me a good and peppy motor. The compound turbo setup I've lined up provides near instant boost and is something one can't make in their garage. It has no electronic controls either, just 2 vacuum hoses.

The thought never crossed my mind to build a truck recently but a free diesel that I wanted to shove in a rover 10 years ago fell into my lap and in the same month so did an investment in the car business. I rarely stop the snowball when I like where its rolling.
 

Tugela

Well-known member
May 21, 2007
4,759
563
Seattle
I haven't driven every Land Rover engine variant, but of those I have I like the 300TDI the most. Not out of any objective measurement, I just enjoy it. So I find it interesting that the OM617 could be modified as described. I'd be curious to compare driving experiences.

As for the business model, the escrow approach addresses uncertainty on the buyer's part, but what recourse do you the builder have if you deliver a finished vehicle as specified and the buyer says "It's not what I want/asked for" and bails? Do you have a contract that defines the terms of escrow? A purchase and sale agreement?
 

discostew

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2010
7,724
1,020
Northern Illinois
Not the D1 in your garage. Show me a really nice $4K D1 for sale.

I have one I'm about to get started on if the roads get cleared up enough to get it up to my shop. It's a Northern California truck I bought for my kid to drive his senior year. I figure if I get all the safarigard shit off it its still worth about $4500.
 

discostew

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2010
7,724
1,020
Northern Illinois
I have no examples of the proposed product vehicle. I've managed a fleet with in house maintenance and fab and executed many Class 8 vocational truck body and drivetrain builds. Built structures and structural features / components that are one off or bespoke. I also did swap some axles and re power a few trucks while in college. That advertisement was more of a market research study than anything else.

I am a Developer, General Contractor, and R.E. Consultant. I've taken on a project that started as a contracted development / build and turned into a partnership of sorts. I'm building a used car dealership with a 4 bay fabrication and repair shop with additional warehouse space. On my land, and traded development fees for partnership interest.

I've never gentrified a neighborhood without good market research. You can't blindly go and Granite and Marble up a shithole neighborhood before you troll hipsters and make them beg for great value high end living they can't afford, that doesn't even exist yet. Peg their interest, build it, and remind them that without local violence you promise to protect them from. They beg because their Fortune 500 kitchen and bath don't exist at their pay rate elsewhere. Create their posh new awesomeness in former shithole, in an area they feared. I used to spend countless amounts of time and effort in this hobby, and couldn't jump back into the automotive realm without buying 3 D1's and countless other parts for a pet project and still sleep at night not knowing if I've somehow forgotten the game.

When I front on an auto industry investment I'll do the same conceptual and design research in the exact same manner. I'm not fishing for dollars, but NYC is a good market to gauge interest in a loose money type of product. Yes a prototype is almost ready for paint. No TDV8 with 'stang 6sp but a fully restored Arles blue B&W compound twin turbo Merc diesel and 5sp into a fully restored and rebuilt D1. 95 titled, 49 state legal. Working airbags and ABS.

I saw what ECD has to offer and just figured fuck it. Top dollar for pushrod Chevy's and bling aesthetics is no different than beating my normal competition using hardwoods and engineered design methods.

So if you did all this research how did you come up with a price point of 40k on a Disco. I think that if you built Defenders then you would be near that price range with a non Nas D90. But Discovery? No chance.
 

YellowIron

Active member
Jan 28, 2018
28
0
Michigan
So if you did all this research how did you come up with a price point of 40k on a Disco. I think that if you built Defenders then you would be near that price range with a non Nas D90. But Discovery? No chance.

ECD sells built Defenders for upwards of $100K. And they're not even ECR who I imagine is easy to get north of $100K with. I took a shot in the dark at $45K to see if there was interest.


Here is a quick breakdown of how you'd do a $45000 fully rebuilt 95 D1 with a TDV8

$2500 Donor D1 5sp rust free truck
$1000 Donor D1 for Interior
$2500 Paint
$4500 Dismantle and Assembly labor
$2000 Fabrication Labor
$1800 Suspension & Chassis parts
$2500 Armor
$6500 TDV8 w/ Adapters & Programming
$3000 Drivetrain Upgrades
$1400 Tires
$2500 Misc Wear Parts
$1000 Consumables
$2500 Shop & Misc Overhead

$33700 Total Estimate

$37070 Total cost at 10% budget over-runs

$40440 Total cost at 20% budget over-runs

$4560-11300 profit spread for something like this.


This rough cost estimate uses rates with enough cushion in them to avoid getting upside down. I think if you were to offer this build spec at a rate less than $40K you would be foolish. Your typical hot rod shop would surely have your invoice over $60,000 for this hypothetical build. Doing everything in house at $100+ /hr bill rates.

I think doing something like this can be done cost effective using a lot of local outsourcing and essentially functioning as a parts assembly operation rather than a custom shop. Most custom hot rod shops outsource lots of work as well and mark it up. All of those vendors will take anyone's money so long as you don't seem like a potential time suck for them.

All things considered someone would be getting what is essentially a brand new D1 that is substantially better than factory at a cost near what the factory charged when new.

Had the UK not lost its will to live and let Land Rover get acquired by Indian shuttle bus manufacturers the Discovery might still look like a utility vehicle with some grit and character. A resto-mod type D1 would struggle to find demand if it was merely a used vehicle in a consistent and current model lineage. Think 1995 Jeep Wrangler resto-mod. No Way. A real Discovery isn't made anymore, someone might want one for their vacation home instead of a $45K wrangler.

If the brand wasn't totally decimated I wouldn't ever think a $45K rebuilt original Discovery would sell. But this is 2018 and globalism has ruined enough heritage to get those checkbooks out.
 

robertf

Well-known member
Jan 22, 2006
4,788
360
-
Do $2500 rust free 5 speed D1s exist anymore?

I dont think you can get a tdv8 with harness, required electronics, and programmed for $6500. People are barely pulling that off with 15 year old domestic V8s with tons of aftermarket support and documentation. If you can pull that off Ill be impressed. The D1 engine bay doesnt really lend itself to V8s with dual overhead cams. Will it even fit without cutting the frame or moving coil towers?
 

discostew

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2010
7,724
1,020
Northern Illinois
ECD sells built Defenders for upwards of $100K. And they're not even ECR who I imagine is easy to get north of $100K with. I took a shot in the dark at $45K to see if there was interest.


Here is a quick breakdown of how you'd do a $45000 fully rebuilt 95 D1 with a TDV8

$2500 Donor D1 5sp rust free truck
$1000 Donor D1 for Interior
$2500 Paint
$4500 Dismantle and Assembly labor
$2000 Fabrication Labor
$1800 Suspension & Chassis parts
$2500 Armor
$6500 TDV8 w/ Adapters & Programming
$3000 Drivetrain Upgrades
$1400 Tires
$2500 Misc Wear Parts
$1000 Consumables
$2500 Shop & Misc Overhead

$33700 Total Estimate

$37070 Total cost at 10% budget over-runs

$40440 Total cost at 20% budget over-runs

$4560-11300 profit spread for something like this.


This rough cost estimate uses rates with enough cushion in them to avoid getting upside down. I think if you were to offer this build spec at a rate less than $40K you would be foolish. Your typical hot rod shop would surely have your invoice over $60,000 for this hypothetical build. Doing everything in house at $100+ /hr bill rates.

I think doing something like this can be done cost effective using a lot of local outsourcing and essentially functioning as a parts assembly operation rather than a custom shop. Most custom hot rod shops outsource lots of work as well and mark it up. All of those vendors will take anyone's money so long as you don't seem like a potential time suck for them.

All things considered someone would be getting what is essentially a brand new D1 that is substantially better than factory at a cost near what the factory charged when new.

Had the UK not lost its will to live and let Land Rover get acquired by Indian shuttle bus manufacturers the Discovery might still look like a utility vehicle with some grit and character. A resto-mod type D1 would struggle to find demand if it was merely a used vehicle in a consistent and current model lineage. Think 1995 Jeep Wrangler resto-mod. No Way. A real Discovery isn't made anymore, someone might want one for their vacation home instead of a $45K wrangler.

If the brand wasn't totally decimated I wouldn't ever think a $45K rebuilt original Discovery would sell. But this is 2018 and globalism has ruined enough heritage to get those checkbooks out.

You kind of sound like a construction guy who thinks he has the whole automotive thing figured out. But I would ask you this. How many 100,000$$$ defenders are those people selling? I see them asking for 100,000. Are they getting it? Are you going to try to pay for labor or do this work yourself? Cause if your paying for labor then your going to loose your ass.
 

Blueboy

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
3,212
462
Back in the USA; Rockwood, PA
And they're not even ECR who I imagine is easy to get north of $100K with.

not just easy, very, very easy.

however, they have been in business for some time and have built up a well deserved reputation.

it is their focus and can build for the most part anything a customer wants.

Copley Motors has a couple 110s now for over $100k that will probably sell.
 

Blueboy

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
3,212
462
Back in the USA; Rockwood, PA
All things considered someone would be getting what is essentially a brand new D1 that is substantially better than factory at a cost near what the factory charged when new.

which is the basic concept of ECR only for Defenders except of course what LR first charged.

it is a noble cause as I have a pretty decent totally stock '96 D1 and really enjoy it, yet, there are so many small details in doing what your plan is that tend to agree with others $45k isn't enough.

and not sure there are many folks out there willing to spend $45k let alone more.

best of luck though and look forward to seeing an example.