Kneeling NFL players

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
So you believe in the corporate virtues of the medical insurance industry?

Is that why our health care is so much worse than other developed nations?

But I'm ill advised and/or don't know any better. Indeed.

Takes two to tango Ray. Bad greedy Corporate America is not flying with me. I have a huge personal experience with what big group insurance plans can do and it rivals the entire world. We're talking any doctor, any plan and most operations. Hell, even sex change operations are known to be covered. God Bless America. Your bullshit fallacy of Greedy insurance companies ain't flying. I know this to be fact.

Large Group combined plans that can sell over state lines will drive up care and drive down cost, just wait. Oh, and don't forget I live and work in this economy. I have some experience in this sector.
 
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ERover82

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2011
3,899
450
Darien Gap
You don't understand. Forget the biased crooked media, spin, fake news. Trump and his administration are embarrassments simply evident by their words and actions.
 

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
Takes two to tango Ray. Bad greedy Corporate America is not flying with me. I have a huge personal experience with what big group insurance plans can do and it rivals the entire world. We're talking any doctor, any plan and most operations. Hell, even sex change operations are known to be covered. God Bless America. Your bullshit fallacy of Greedy insurance companies ain't flying. I know this to be fact.

Large Group combined plans that can sell over state lines will drive up care and drive down cost, just wait. Oh, and don't forget I live and work in this economy. I have some experience in this sector.

Ah, so you have experience in the sector and know it to be good and faithful to the interests of the rank and file; now I feel better-all that data that points out the truth of what I said is clearly false. The fact that we pay more for less as a nation is definitely not true.

How does your individual experience rival the entire world's? Did you have a sex change that was a good as one you could get in Brazil under your large group insurance plan? That's awesome!

Here's a few reasons why what I said is accurate, but your personal experience may be true-for you.
-Administrative costs of running our health care system are astronomical. About one quarter of health care cost is associated with administration, which is far higher than in any other country. (You hate federal bureaucracy? Guess what, health care makes that look like amateur hour. A jobs program to say the least...)
- The U.S. spends more than other countries do on many of the same things. Drugs, procedures, equipment-why does it cost us more? It couldn't be corporate profits tapping in, could it? (Or is it the aforementioned bureaucracy with rent seeking behavior compounding on itself)?

Bottomline; some Americans can get the best health care in the world-that isn't the point, the point is what most Americans can get and when you measure that in comparison to everywhere else we aren't doing well.

An executive order isn't going to fix that, BTW. But it isn't like that's what you came to office saying you were going to do.
 

mgreenspan

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2005
4,723
130
Briggs's Back Yard
So... talk to me about how good healthcare is in the rest of the world you tarts. I witness it with my wife's family in the UK. Little things are easy. You want a hip/knee replacement when you need it and you're paying out of pocket. Keep acting like government healthcare is so great.

And since you love facts. I assume you're getting info from this garbage. http://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub...rature/2014/sep/hospital-administrative-costs

From their own study.
"Other limitations are that there is no international standard for hospital cost accounting, and that our alignment of categories was imperfect. Our analysis allocated some capital costs to administration, based on the administration share of operating expenses. Our analysis handled capital costs uniformly across the eight nations. However, it should be noted that Dutch hospitals’ capital costs are higher than those in the United States, and about double those of the other European nations.

Our data do not address the question of which components of administrative spending drive international differences. However, fragmentary data from other sources suggest that a larger number of managers and clerical workers—not differences in wage levels, benefit costs, or nonwage costs—explains much or all of the higher administrative costs in US hospitals compared to hospitals in the other nations we studied."

So basically garbage stat to say one quarter. Then you look at their appendix of what goes into their administrative costs. Salaries is one of the things. Want to know why those other nations don't have happy employees working for them and are going to end up struggling to fill doctor positions in the future. It's called not paying people enough money. The didn't give enough info as to how much of insurance goes into their mixed administrative and clinical costs. I can only imagine that is higher in the US with all the idiots who jump on lawsuits to get their cut of someone else's misfortune under the knife/care of a physician.

But absolutely, if you guys want to pay 16% of your paycheck to the government for universal shitty care do so. After all $16k out of your $100k hurts a lot less than $3.2k out of $20k for the poor folks. But fuck those guys, right?
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
Ah, so you have experience in the sector and know it to be good and faithful to the interests of the rank and file; now I feel better-all that data that points out the truth of what I said is clearly false. The fact that we pay more for less as a nation is definitely not true.

What you have overlooked Ray, or, decided not to comment on is the fact I have dealt with and been insured by very small, medium and very large insurance group policies. I have personal experience with The Travelers, Aetna, Blue Cross Blue Shield, Prudential and United while never lapsing in coverage, not even for one day. If you take the time and read the EO you may see how it would help given the big pile of shit we've gotten ourselves into. Now, given your government through and though I would guess you have little to no personal experience with business Group Health plans, correct? Sometimes the one with experience that's been insured living with a major health problem may have a better take on the EO than, let's say, the run of the mill NYT article written and designed for click-bait. I'd think long and hard about which opinions you listen to and whom their deriving from if I were you Ray.

Here, take some time. Directly from the horses mouth. Not CNN, not Fox News, just facts.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-pres...r-promoting-healthcare-choice-and-competition
 
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1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
So... talk to me about how good healthcare is in the rest of the world you tarts. I witness it with my wife's family in the UK. Little things are easy. You want a hip/knee replacement when you need it and you're paying out of pocket. Keep acting like government healthcare is so great.

And since you love facts. I assume you're getting info from this garbage. http://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub...rature/2014/sep/hospital-administrative-costs

From their own study.
"Other limitations are that there is no international standard for hospital cost accounting, and that our alignment of categories was imperfect. Our analysis allocated some capital costs to administration, based on the administration share of operating expenses. Our analysis handled capital costs uniformly across the eight nations. However, it should be noted that Dutch hospitals? capital costs are higher than those in the United States, and about double those of the other European nations.

Our data do not address the question of which components of administrative spending drive international differences. However, fragmentary data from other sources suggest that a larger number of managers and clerical workers?not differences in wage levels, benefit costs, or nonwage costs?explains much or all of the higher administrative costs in US hospitals compared to hospitals in the other nations we studied."

So basically garbage stat to say one quarter. Then you look at their appendix of what goes into their administrative costs. Salaries is one of the things. Want to know why those other nations don't have happy employees working for them and are going to end up struggling to fill doctor positions in the future. It's called not paying people enough money. The didn't give enough info as to how much of insurance goes into their mixed administrative and clinical costs. I can only imagine that is higher in the US with all the idiots who jump on lawsuits to get their cut of someone else's misfortune under the knife/care of a physician.

But absolutely, if you guys want to pay 16% of your paycheck to the government for universal shitty care do so. After all $16k out of your $100k hurts a lot less than $3.2k out of $20k for the poor folks. But fuck those guys, right?

Matt-
So when you read academic studies and they lay out where their limitations are that doesn't mean they don't have merit-it means they show their work.

Show me that with your proposed solutions...do you have any of those?

Even the caveat doesn't sidestep the point that we pay more, in part, for uneven healthcare because it has turned into a jobs program for administration for the sake of administration. You champion not being a company man and such (as if you aren't) but in the end you think our healthcare is going to get better when corporate interest, and their associated lobbying efforts, weave a bureaucracy that makes DoD's look agile?

As far as the rest of the world the UK is a great example of one place, kinda like Brian's example is about his experience-not experience writ large, just his experience.
 

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
What you have overlooked Ray, or, decided not to comment on is the fact I have dealt with and been insured by very small, medium and very large insurance group policies. I have personal experience with The Travelers, Aetna, Blue Cross Blue Shield, Prudential and United while never lapsing in coverage, not even for one day. If you take the time and read the EO you may see how it would help given the big pile of shit we've gotten ourselves into. Now, given your government through and though I would guess you have little to no personal experience with business Group Health plans, correct? Sometimes the one with experience that's been insured living with a major health problem may have a better take on the EO than, let's say, the run of the mill NYT article written and designed for click-bait. I'd think long and hard about which opinions you listen to and whom their deriving from if I were you Ray.

Here, take some time. Directly from the horses mouth. Not CNN, not Fox News, just facts.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-pres...r-promoting-healthcare-choice-and-competition

Brian-
This may come as a shock, but just because I'm gov't property doesn't mean that I interact only with folks that are gov't property too, Brian. Oddly enough I interact with all manner of citizenry across the spectrum of health care coverage. Some have experiences like your individual experience. Many do not, Brian.

It is great that you have your experience. There about 330M other folks that have those too, in some form or fashion, yours is just unique to you-and it doesn't appear that you process that data regarding how things are in the macro very well. Brian.

So, Brian, the fact remains that as a nation we pay a lot to get less-and your EO isn't likely to help that for the nation as a whole, regardless of your experience individually or what Rush told you on conservative snowflake radio.

Brian.
r-
Ray
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
Brian-
This may come as a shock, but just because I'm gov't property doesn't mean that I interact only with folks that are gov't property too, Brian. Oddly enough I interact with all manner of citizenry across the spectrum of health care coverage. Some have experiences like your individual experience. Many do not, Brian.

It is great that you have your experience. There about 330M other folks that have those too, in some form or fashion, yours is just unique to you-and it doesn't appear that you process that data regarding how things are in the macro very well. Brian.

So, Brian, the fact remains that as a nation we pay a lot to get less-and your EO isn't likely to help that for the nation as a whole, regardless of your experience individually or what Rush told you on conservative snowflake radio.

Brian.
r-
Ray

And there you have it folks. Willful ignorance and unwilling to educate themselves. It's pretty basic Ray. There are Corporate Group Policies that work VERY well right now. The EO tries to mimic what we're doing right. It's something to try before this situation gets even worse. To not like this for Political reasoning is simply absurd. True Colors Ray. Maybe you should go reup your NYT and WAPO subscriptions? I hear there are offering some great deals right now.

Did you even read the EO Ray?
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
And there you have it folks. Willful ignorance and unwilling to educate themselves. It's pretty basic Ray. There are Corporate Group Policies that work VERY well right now. The EO tries to mimic what we're doing right. It's something to try before this situation gets even worse. To not like this for Political reasoning is simply absurd. True Colors Ray. Maybe you should go reup your NYT and WAPO subscriptions? I hear there are offering some great deals right now.

Did you even read the EO Ray?

If they work so well, why do their premiums continue to go up at 2-3x GDP?

Why are companies shifting away from PPOs, etc. to high deductible plans?

Why are companies shedding retiree health insurance as fast as possible?

I guess when you have insurance, and most of it is paid by your company, you can safely say, the "Corporate Group Policies that work VERY well right now."

Basically - I've got mine, fuck everyone else.

No wonder you think Trump is a great president and everything he does is winning.
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
If they work so well, why do their premiums continue to go up at 2-3x GDP?

Why are companies shifting away from PPOs, etc. to high deductible plans?

Why are companies shedding retiree health insurance as fast as possible?

I guess when you have insurance, and most of it is paid by your company, you can safely say, the "Corporate Group Policies that work VERY well right now."

Basically - I've got mine, fuck everyone else.

No wonder you think Trump is a great president and everything he does is winning.

Scott, you read the EO as well. Large corporate plans are seeing none of this because of the same concept Obama tried but failed, power in numbers. These are the Gold standard plans that employees that make 30K a year have access to and are covered by. Crazy, I know! This is what the EO aims at doing. Rand is on the money here.

Either way, I'm not going to convince you, or Ray. Lost cause I'm guessing.

Talk to me again after you've read it top to bottom and tell me specifically won't work and why, how about that?
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
Scott, you read the EO as well. Large corporate plans are seeing none of this because of the same concept Obama tried but failed, power in numbers. These are the Gold standard plans that employees that make 30K a year have access to and are covered by. Crazy, I know! This is what the EO aims at doing. Rand is on the money here.

Either way, I'm not going to convince you, or Ray. Lost cause I'm guessing.

Talk to me again after you've read it top to bottom and tell me specifically won't work and why, how about that?

Large corporate plans aren't seeing 2-3x GDP costs rising? Wrong.

The EO? allowing large groups of people to buy into collective plans...hmmm...Isn't that what the healthcare exchanges are? They exactly are that. If what you are espousing to be the magic solution (Allow people to join healthcare plans in large numbers), why are you against the ACA, which is just that?

The Trump administration claims that it offers lower premiums...because the requirements for the plans are much less. Seems reasonable: offer less coverage, charge lower premiums. But the cost is still the same - it just comes out of the persons pocket.
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
This is what real winning looks like.
That's it? That's all the winning that's happened?

Wow...it's blowing over- basically back to the number of players kneeling before Trump spoke. So no real movement or change.

And if that's what you consider a win? You might want to look around a bit, there are a few more important things that need attending to than what some athletes do before a game.
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
Large corporate plans aren't seeing 2-3x GDP costs rising? Wrong.

The EO? allowing large groups of people to buy into collective plans...hmmm...Isn't that what the healthcare exchanges are? They exactly are that. If what you are espousing to be the magic solution (Allow people to join healthcare plans in large numbers), why are you against the ACA, which is just that?

The Trump administration claims that it offers lower premiums...because the requirements for the plans are much less. Seems reasonable: offer less coverage, charge lower premiums. But the cost is still the same - it just comes out of the persons pocket.

First, your article is from 2009. Second, nowhere does it mention the cost difference compared to group size. Keep swinging, and missing Scott.

We see our insurer on an extremely constant basis trying to save money, it's the little things I notice. The problem is systemic, and contrary to what Ray thinks, is much deeper than insurance companies being greedy. Let's examine why ambulance rides are $500 or $100 per mile, or an aspirin is $45. Hmmmmmmmm