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Old 12-19-2018, 08:25 AM
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I was surprised to see this one, +1 to Trump for that. My guess is that people will just start buying printed ones, but not arguing about that. IS there a practical reason for owning one that I am missing?
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Old 12-19-2018, 10:15 AM
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Old 12-19-2018, 11:21 AM
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I was surprised to see this one, +1 to Trump for that. My guess is that people will just start buying printed ones, but not arguing about that. IS there a practical reason for owning one that I am missing?
They make it easier for your gun to go off on its own and indiscriminately kill a bunch of people.
Guns are bad, mm-kay?
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Old 12-19-2018, 11:52 AM
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Why plus one to Trump?

They're fucking stupid. And you can build one from a hardware store, no need to buy them.

They make your weapon highly inaccurate and more prone to jamming and malfunctioning. I mean following that to its logical conclusion requiring bump stocks on all AR-15 style rifles would result in fewer deaths because you can't aim for fuck and your gun will probably jam.

This is just politics - ban something stupid so you can say you are tough on guns.

All he is is another anti-2A political dipshit. The only thing that bothers me is his supporters will say this is ok because bump stocks are dumb....well using that all kinds of styles of weapons are dumb, so they can be banned too?
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Old 12-19-2018, 12:01 PM
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Well, since that actual NFA law defines an automatic weapon as something that goes bang many times with ONE activation of the trigger, they really can't ban them - legally. The BATF had decided this previously.

But, the Trump administration being the Trump administration, they decided they could just ignore/re-write the law themselves; no need for Congress to actually pass a new law.

This will get struck down by the courts.

Remember: Trump is a liberal Democrat at heart, and a wannabe dictator. This is a result.

ETA: Bumpstocks are stoopid
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Old 12-19-2018, 12:24 PM
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SGaynor looked in his cheerios this morning and saw a vast right wing conspiracy, an image of Donald J. Trump, and Russians. Lots of Russians.
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Old 12-19-2018, 07:28 PM
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SGaynor looked in his cheerios this morning and saw a vast right wing conspiracy, an image of Donald J. Trump, and Russians. Lots of Russians.
Rent Free.
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Old 12-19-2018, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ukoffroad View Post
I was surprised to see this one, +1 to Trump for that. My guess is that people will just start buying printed ones, but not arguing about that. IS there a practical reason for owning one that I am missing?
There is not a practical use for them. They are simply for having fun pissing away ammunition.

I've always thought they should have been rolled in with the other stuff, and so have many firearm owners. I may not agree with the regulations, but if the shoe fits, put it in the box with the rest. Outliers like this just make freedoms in a regulated industry more complicated, and therefore vulnerable.

I'd consider it a little differently if people were out using them all the time, but you quickly find out that, when you're the one buying the ammunition, wasting it like that isn't as palatable. That being the case, people don't really use them too much, anyway.

Firearm owners and bump stock owners are like pickup drivers and pickup drivers that run around "rolling coal". It just makes the rest of them look bad, and chances causing increased regulation of things that don't need it, simply by attracting negative attention.

Cheers,

Kennith
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Old 12-20-2018, 12:33 AM
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So you can blow through 223's and waste money while telling everyone else on the range you're cool. Like a Yeti Cooler.
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Old 12-20-2018, 09:40 AM
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Bumpstocks are stupid. But banning anything by executive fiat troubles the shit out of me. Would my conservative friends be happy with a President Booker or President Warren exercising that power?
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Old 12-20-2018, 10:18 AM
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Bumpstocks are stupid. But banning anything by executive fiat troubles the shit out of me. Would my conservative friends be happy with a President Booker or President Warren exercising that power?
No they wouldn't, but they won't admit it.
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Old 12-20-2018, 10:39 AM
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Nonsense. Doesn't matter who makes the decision or who's sitting behind that desk when the decision is made.

I've been happy to see those put on the list for as long as I was aware of them, regardless of the sitting President's political persuasions. Bumps stocks, to me and to many firearm owners, are a bug in the system. The sooner they go away the better.

If you want to burn up ammunition that fast, get the stamp and do it properly. Nobody cared about bump stocks when people were making them out of 2X4s, but as soon as they started being marketed aggressively, they weren't doing firearm owners any favors.

It's low-hanging fruit; an easy target. You don't want those floating around when you're already having to defend everything else constantly. The inclinations of the person presiding over the ban itself are immaterial. This eliminates a bigger layer of complexity in regulation than many seem to realize.

There was a small, irritating, and foolish "contextual physics" shaped hole in the definition of "automatic". Now there is not. This affects more than bump stocks, and can be considered a universal victory.

Cheers,

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Old 12-20-2018, 12:07 PM
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so here is the funny thing. Near as i can tell in my research, the bump stock exists because of the tax stamp created by the NFA act of 1934 and then the subsequent ban on new civilian production machine guns in FOPA (1986). a true select fire AR or AK pattern rifle will cost you north of 25k. $75-150 stock vs $25-35k NFA transferable machine gun. Yes, you have to pay to play but that is quite the entry price.

i 100% agree with the pointless nature of the bump stock.I don't own own, never will but that doesnt mean that someone who does want one shouldn't be able to. whatever jostles your jimmies. I do have concerns about how the ATF is going about this. 10 years of repeated letter to manufactures saying it is NOT a machine gun, only to about face now due to political pressure. Most of the hubbub about bump stocks now stems from their reported use in the Vegas shooting. Owners are also being required to turn in or destroy without compensation, which doesn't sit well with me.

AbnMike and SGaynor kind hit it on the head. its an emotional response to an non existent problem based on non-existent legal grounds that sets a dangerous precedence for future regulations on all things, not just firearms.



cant believe i came out of lurking for this. whoops
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Old 12-20-2018, 12:09 PM
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Kennith, a president declaring a previously-legal item illegal doesn't bother you? And not only illegal, but you must turn them over or destroy the previously-legal item? Leaving aside the stupidity of the bumpstock and the yokel that's too cheap to get a stamp, that's disturbing as fuck to me, no matter the item in question.

Damn man, do you love the taste of bootleather?

How you can view this as a victory boggles my mind.
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Old 12-20-2018, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by stu454 View Post
Kennith, a president declaring a previously-legal item illegal doesn't bother you? And not only illegal, but you must turn them over or destroy the previously-legal item? Leaving aside the stupidity of the bumpstock and the yokel that's too cheap to get a stamp, that's disturbing as fuck to me, no matter the item in question.

Damn man, do you love the taste of bootleather?

How you can view this as a victory boggles my mind.
THIS.

(even worthy of an all-caps)
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Old 12-20-2018, 12:45 PM
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Kennith, a president declaring a previously-legal item illegal doesn't bother you? And not only illegal, but you must turn them over or destroy the previously-legal item? Leaving aside the stupidity of the bumpstock and the yokel that's too cheap to get a stamp, that's disturbing as fuck to me, no matter the item in question.

Damn man, do you love the taste of bootleather?

How you can view this as a victory boggles my mind.
I explained why.

Bump stocks and similar devices are a thorn in the side of precision language, and this all boils down to language. Any outliers must be eliminated. This should have been covered thirty years ago.

They needed a category. They got one. I don't have to agree with a law to recognize that it should be properly written.

Cheers,

Kennith
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Old 12-20-2018, 12:50 PM
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Kennith, a president declaring a previously-legal item illegal doesn't bother you? And not only illegal, but you must turn them over or destroy the previously-legal item? Leaving aside the stupidity of the bumpstock and the yokel that's too cheap to get a stamp, that's disturbing as fuck to me, no matter the item in question.
Stu, as a matter of fact, governments do declare previously-legal items illegal. By itself it is nothing new, neither it is a breach of the law. Even if the item was previously (arguably) protected by the Constitution. Societies change, so are the policies and the laws. My only vague concern stems from my ignorance in legal matters - could/should it have been done by the President or Congress.

Bump stocks are a senseless abomination. I don't see banning them as Second Amendment violation or threat of one.
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Old 12-20-2018, 12:55 PM
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THIS.

(even worthy of an all-caps)
How many rapidly deployed inane comments and questions do you enjoy addressing? Do holes in definitions and systems people already don't understand help us at all? The arguments that must be endured from all angles and any number of ignorant perspectives rely entirely on things that are not immediately understood by most.

A device that performs such a function throws definition into chaos for the sub-standard mind, and adds fuel to an already out of control fire. If they were going to implement the automatic ban, they should have rolled in similar devices from the beginning.

They didn't. Now it's been done. A "trigger pull" has now, finally, been defined completely with the ban of bump stocks. Now we've got a better foundation from which to build our own arguments. I'd say it's a fair trade, and a correction of a mistake.

Cheers,

Kennith
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Old 12-20-2018, 01:06 PM
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How many rapidly deployed inane comments and questions do you enjoy addressing? Do holes in definitions and systems people already don't understand help us at all? The arguments that must be endured from all angles and any number of ignorant perspectives rely entirely on things that are not immediately understood by most.

A device that performs such a function throws definition into chaos for the sub-standard mind, and adds fuel to an already out of control fire. If they were going to implement the automatic ban, they should have rolled in similar devices from the beginning.

They didn't. Now it's been done. A "trigger pull" has now, finally, been defined completely with the ban of bump stocks. Now we've got a better foundation from which to build our own arguments. I'd say it's a fair trade, and a correction of a mistake.

Cheers,

Kennith
The only correction of mistakes that should occur is the following:

The word Infringed be completely re-defined in the dictionary from what it states currently or

Any gun law enacted at all, anywhere, by anyone, be repealed and/or voided.

Continuing to make laws, create categories, require registration, enact training requirements, licensing, etc serves 0 purpose other than to state: The Constitution, as written, is worthless garbage. It carries no weight.



If a "bump stock" is illegal, is it similarly illegal for me to mount my rifle and insert a stick or rod in front of the trigger and pull back on it repeatedly and often? (this serves the exact same purpose as a bump stock although it is more stationary). Maybe we can define "trigger pull" as occurring one per minute, but no more. More than one per minute is hereby outlawed.

They should probably outlaw bayonet lugs too. Talk about worthless in this day and age, especially for non-combat personnel, right?

I mean as long as infringed doesn't mean what it's defined as and outlawing dumb things is A-ok as long as there's a quorum of people saying they're dumb, we certainly shouldn't stop at just the bump stock.
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Old 12-20-2018, 01:50 PM
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They didn't. Now it's been done. A "trigger pull" has now, finally, been defined completely with the ban of bump stocks. Now we've got a better foundation from which to build our own arguments. I'd say it's a fair trade, and a correction of a mistake.
So if I bumpfire the old fashioned way I'm only pulling the trigger once?


ok
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Old 12-20-2018, 02:49 PM
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Stu, as a matter of fact, governments do declare previously-legal items illegal. By itself it is nothing new, neither it is a breach of the law. Even if the item was previously (arguably) protected by the Constitution. Societies change, so are the policies and the laws. My only vague concern stems from my ignorance in legal matters - could/should it have been done by the President or Congress.

Bump stocks are a senseless abomination. I don't see banning them as Second Amendment violation or threat of one.
Of course the govt bans things that were once legal. But it is done by the representative branch passing a law, then being signed by the Executive (and finally, verified by the judicial).

It doesn't happen (in democracies) that it is decreed by the the Executive, skipping the legislative.
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Old 12-20-2018, 02:53 PM
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Scott, I'd imagine it should be verified by judicial before it is put out in the first place - but it may be too much to ask.
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Old 12-20-2018, 02:58 PM
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Scott, I'd imagine it should be verified by judicial before it is put out in the first place - but it may be too much to ask.
Can't challenge a law in court until it's actually a law (and someone suffers a "loss"). It's just the way our system is set up.
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Old 12-20-2018, 03:30 PM
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Maybe this article will help define things a little more clearly.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...6N1G3PYWNCFLW0

The problem with machine guns is the finite amount that the civilian population can own because of the Hughes amendment. As a result the price of them goes up every year. A Mac 10 that cost maybe 50 dollars to make is now worth 7-8k dollars. This makes it to where only the rich can purchase them. There are also a considerable amount of people out there that want to keep machine gun ownership this way because of how they invested in them.

Before 1986 a registered full auto HK trigger packs would cost around 200 dollars plus a 200 dollar tax stamp. In 32 years that same trigger pack now can cost an individual upwards of 32k easily as a result of supply and demand.
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Old 12-20-2018, 04:33 PM
kennith kennith is offline
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The only correction of mistakes that should occur is the following:

The word Infringed be completely re-defined in the dictionary from what it states currently or

Any gun law enacted at all, anywhere, by anyone, be repealed and/or voided.
We don't need to re-define "infringed". The definition used in choosing that word was "violated". The definition used for "violate" was: To transgress, corrupt, go after, or otherwise harass.

The meaning of the sentence as a whole is easily understood, as well. It's one of the most "correctly" written statements of all time, and the authors would be ashamed of a nation that can't understand it.

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Continuing to make laws, create categories, require registration, enact training requirements, licensing, etc serves 0 purpose other than to state: The Constitution, as written, is worthless garbage. It carries no weight.
Agreed, but a definition of automatic fire needs to properly address trigger actuation via user-encouraged external forces in relation to the sale of devices. Any conflict, to include an argument, must be based on solid foundations. That foundation had a crack.

This is why everyone is so angry, confused, and ignorant today. Critical thinking is a lost discipline.

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If a "bump stock" is illegal, is it similarly illegal for me to mount my rifle and insert a stick or rod in front of the trigger and pull back on it repeatedly and often? (this serves the exact same purpose as a bump stock although it is more stationary). Maybe we can define "trigger pull" as occurring one per minute, but no more. More than one per minute is hereby outlawed.
What you do is one thing. What is allowed for open sale on the market is another. Banning bump stocks effectively defined a trigger pull as the trigger being actuated fully. Leave such arguments for the opposition.

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They should probably outlaw bayonet lugs too. Talk about worthless in this day and age, especially for non-combat personnel, right?

I mean as long as infringed doesn't mean what it's defined as and outlawing dumb things is A-ok as long as there's a quorum of people saying they're dumb, we certainly shouldn't stop at just the bump stock.
Bayonett lugs do not affect the function of the firearm action. They are not in play in this discussion.

You're assuming that I don't understand your point. I do, and I support it. I know precisely what the Constitution says about firearms. I own my fair share, and some would have been illegal in the past. Some are currently targeted by the screaming mob to be made illegal.

I don't want that to happen. Using their own argument methods, however, is folly. Do you see how, if we continue down your posting process, we will never get anywhere? To my single point and estimation, you have brought a number of different and unrelated questions. I will forever be stuck addressing them, and nobody will accomplish a damned thing. There is no opportunity to reach truth.

This is why those other threads have gone on as long as they have. Few understand how to explore a topic and leave more educated, and those that do have either walked away in frustration in the face of ignorance, or only pop in on occasion.

Anything involving firearm regulations needs to be certain. There was uncertainty, and nearly everyone familiar with bump stocks before they entered popular interest knows it. If we can't agree, we can't fight together as a single unit for the protection of our rights.

Someone just agreed for us. That sucks, but it solved the problem. I'd love to see it all overturned, but failing that, I am patient enough to see it through piece by piece, and shoring up both the freedoms and laws we do have currently makes it more easy to defend them both in the future.

It cuts out an avenue of potential bullshit and sensationalism.

Cheers,

Kennith
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