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  #451  
Old 04-11-2018, 09:55 PM
discostew discostew is offline
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I have to believe the bottom of the Defender will look a lot like the underside of your wifes LR4. I think it will be built in that platform. Maybe, hopefully with some modifications. I really really hope it's a steel sprung truck.
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  #452  
Old 04-11-2018, 10:17 PM
kennith kennith is offline
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Originally Posted by p m View Post
No it isn't.
Anyone with a little bit of reasoning can look at the vehicle and ponder: if I were to drive over a mudhole or a puddle full of branches that previous unlucky SOBs tossed under their wheels, what can get snagged and ripped off?

In case of a Defender - the answer is none.
In case of a Range Rover Classic or Disco 1, the answer is - ABS cable, maybe. Brake hose will crack anything short of a log good for a cabin builder. Who gives a flying fuck?

When I look at the underside of my wife's LR4, I shudder. No matter what I do to it, no matter what lifehack workarounds I find, it is terrifying. Not because an ABS cable or brake pads wear sensor cable can be snagged, but because it can completely, entirely, disable a vehicle.

That's beside the point that in a Defender or Range Rover Classic or Disco 1 there are 2 CV joints, protected against everything including a landmine. There are 8 CV joints in an LR3/4/5, protected against elements by 1/16" of rubber.
And, amazingly, all this IFS/IRS trickery does not even exempt you from driveshaft failures!!! Driveshafts that see no movement unchecked by engine/transmission/differential mounts!

Now, sorry that I had to edit it multiple times, but here's another thing to ponder.
Picture a wheel that has to come up 4" over a football-sized rock. With the axle width to the tune of 6 feet, and radius arms about 50" long, the rubber bushings have to accommodate the angle between 3 and 5 degrees, give or take. With IFS/IRS, and arms being about 20" long, the same wheel displacement translates into 11 degrees. It doesn't take a degree of rocket science to know that the bushings will not last that long. My personal case in point: LR4's front suspension bushings had to be replaced at around 40 kmi. My D1's radius arms bushings had to be replaced well after 200 kmi.

There you have it. No make/model/year is exempt from it. An LR3/4/5 will never be a Defender, and the new Defender built on LR3/4/5 platform will never be the beat-up junk that was driven in Camel Trophy or across Darien Gap.

This is not to say I have a beef with the progress. I love my LR4 even when it leaves me stranded within a $1000 tow bill from the nearest place that can fix it.
What you say is true. That said, there are some seriously tough independent suspension systems out there, and I know darn well you've seen and likely driven them in your life.

Obviously, I doubt they'll use anything like that, preferring instead to just keep to the platform, but we don't even know what the thing is going to look like at this point.

I can't judge it based on suspension I haven't seen. All I can do is say that independent suspension is not immediately an issue. It's simply a probable issue.

Personally, I like the tracking stability it offers at higher speeds on rough terrain, but not all are equal. Most of the good stuff is found underneath heavy equipment, off-road transportation, racing-specific builds, and military vehicles.

I don't think Land Rover's current system is too bad, though. For what it's under and the price they charge, as well as the performance, it's pretty difficult to beat in the consumer utility market.

Cheers,

Kennith
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  #453  
Old 04-11-2018, 10:25 PM
kennith kennith is offline
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Originally Posted by discostew View Post
This car company is so small and slow to bring stuff to market that companies could see the thing and build it first.
Strange how Land Rover is worried about copy-cats when their entire business survived on two vehicles that were precisely that. I don't believe they're as worried about the Chinese market as they claim.

I think they're full of shit, and I also think they just can't manage to put a stamp on styling; partially because it's going to take one hell of a leap of faith.

Cheers,

Kennith
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  #454  
Old 04-11-2018, 10:46 PM
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What you say is true. That said, there are some seriously tough independent suspension systems out there, and I know darn well you've seen and likely driven them in your life.
Unless Twin Traction Beam is your idea of a pinnacle of reliability, I assume you mean Humvees?
That's a royal POS.
I haven't seen it personally, only heard about it - there used to be an H1 owners club in San Diego. Any time they set out on a trip to the desert, they'd have along a box of spare CV joints.

You should see a convoy of H1s on the move. Looks gnarly, until you notice that every wheel is pointing its own way.
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  #455  
Old 04-11-2018, 11:22 PM
kennith kennith is offline
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Unless Twin Traction Beam is your idea of a pinnacle of reliability, I assume you mean Humvees?
That's a royal POS.
I haven't seen it personally, only heard about it - there used to be an H1 owners club in San Diego. Any time they set out on a trip to the desert, they'd have along a box of spare CV joints.

You should see a convoy of H1s on the move. Looks gnarly, until you notice that every wheel is pointing its own way.
No no no... Not a HMMWV. I don't like those at all, and I've been in my share of convoys.

Cheers,

Kennith
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  #456  
Old 04-15-2018, 04:23 PM
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Finally saw one up-close today (at the same Byerlys I was tricked by the sport no less...).

The sloped front isn't great, but it's more unique and "Disco-y" than it looks in photos.

It's like those chicks who are pretty meh in pictures, but actually quite bangable in person
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  #457  
Old 04-15-2018, 06:21 PM
kennith kennith is offline
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Originally Posted by pinkytoe69 View Post
Finally saw one up-close today (at the same Byerlys I was tricked by the sport no less...).

The sloped front isn't great, but it's more unique and "Disco-y" than it looks in photos.

It's like those chicks who are pretty meh in pictures, but actually quite bangable in person
Yup. I came upon one the other day, and it had me rather confused. I wasn't entirely sure what I was seeing.

Some vehicles just aren't photogenic. It looked like it would be a decent runabout, but so is an Outback; and it's a lot cheaper. The same goes for the Velar and Evoque, which leaves the Discovery as a primary utility vehicle.

That's a fair chunk of change for such a thing, when it doesn't really have as much personality or practicality as something like an LR4, or even older Discovery models.

Doesn't look near as "Ford" in person, though. It certainly looks as expensive as it is. Perhaps if the interior was a touch more unique.

Even if I would consider one, by the time you put anything on it you're tickling Range Rover prices; and I'm not seeing the value beyond overall vehicle quality and trim, which can, again, be had from Subaru at almost half the price; and both are darn decent off pavement.

Cheers,

Kennith
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  #458  
Old 04-15-2018, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by kennith View Post

Even if I would consider one, by the time you put anything on it you're tickling Range Rover prices
It is definitely expensive, but not Range Rover expensive. I barely see any come through under $100k.
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  #459  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:26 PM
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Doesn't look near as "Ford" in person, though.
Unfortunately, the Ford Explorer looks better. It's more balanced and significantly less lopsided. The few that I've seen with smaller rims and bigger tires actually look like they might not get shredded by a fire road.
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  #460  
Old 04-18-2018, 08:40 AM
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Unfortunately, the Ford Explorer looks better. It's more balanced and significantly less lopsided. The few that I've seen with smaller rims and bigger tires actually look like they might not get shredded by a fire road.
I work at the State Depts Driver Training Unit facility and they have been "testing" the Explorer quite a bit, along with several other vehicles. But they have been quite reliable.

They are looking for replacements for the 3/4 ton Suburban as that been their mainstay for a long time and is no longer available. The Explorer won't be filling the void, but they tend to use quite a variety for different applications.
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  #461  
Old 05-16-2018, 10:48 PM
kennith kennith is offline
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I think I want to go back in time and tell myself this:

"Look, you fucking moron, it's not Land Rover's fault you're not evolved enough to understand this design language... Give it a year or so, and maybe you'll brighten up."

I'm starting to think this could potentially be a nice example of understated heritage that interprets the past instead of aping it; specifically from a style point of view. Still don't quite "get" the interior, but the exterior finally clicked.

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  #462  
Old 05-16-2018, 11:10 PM
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Stock D1s are ugly. Modified D1s look ok. D2s made the best of the design. Stock D3 is awkward and ugly. Modified D3 can look somewhat ok. D4 made the best of the design (again). Stock D5 is ugly. D5 SVX is still ugly, just slightly less. All D5s use 20" wheels at the minimum. They are not off-road vehicles more than a Subaru is.

The only Land Rovers that ever looked great were stock and tastefully modified Series and Defenders.
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  #463  
Old 05-17-2018, 02:01 AM
kennith kennith is offline
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Stock D1s are ugly. Modified D1s look ok. D2s made the best of the design. Stock D3 is awkward and ugly. Modified D3 can look somewhat ok. D4 made the best of the design (again). Stock D5 is ugly. D5 SVX is still ugly, just slightly less. All D5s use 20" wheels at the minimum. They are not off-road vehicles more than a Subaru is.

The only Land Rovers that ever looked great were stock and tastefully modified Series and Defenders.
They'll still walk circles around any previous Rover right out of the show-room (and many that have been modified), on those 20" wheels and street tires. I don't think that will ever stop being surprising.

I agree that the DII corrected some of the ungainly the form of the original Discovery (not perfect, but better from a design-specific perspective), and that the D4 was the best of the box-bodies.

Actually, I foresee the D4 eventually being recognized as a design triumph. This one? Maybe not, but I'll bet the refresh will, whenever it comes around.

Cheers,

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  #464  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by kennith View Post
They'll still walk circles around any previous Rover right out of the show-room (and many that have been modified), on those 20" wheels and street tires. I don't think that will ever stop being surprising.

I agree that the DII corrected some of the ungainly the form of the original Discovery (not perfect, but better from a design-specific perspective), and that the D4 was the best of the box-bodies.

Actually, I foresee the D4 eventually being recognized as a design triumph. This one? Maybe not, but I'll bet the refresh will, whenever it comes around.

Cheers,

Kennith
A stock LR3/4 and Range Rover are absolutely useless off-road once you introduce some rain in a mildly muddy, flat fields. Introduce some "obstacles" and you have a shit show. When I facilitated the LR dealer events, the stock trucks with street tires were hard pressed to get very far. On a dry day the "aid" devices worked their magic and all that. But a slightly modified D1/D2/RRC would do far better then a bone stock late model truck in wet terrain. I don't miss doing those events. It was a lot of work to get those stock late model trucks through the course without any damage - let alone just down the trail.
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  #465  
Old 05-17-2018, 01:27 PM
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They'll still walk circles around any previous Rover right out of the show-room (and many that have been modified), on those 20" wheels and street tires. I don't think that will ever stop being surprising.

True, on a manicured dry course. They won't get you to any destination in the real world though, not even down a fire road without inevitable stone damage. Even 15-16" C-E rated wheels/tires get damaged on fire roads. Those barbie wheels dont stand a chance.
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  #466  
Old 05-18-2018, 11:15 AM
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Stock D1s are ugly
Clearly others including myself feel differently.

Of course I'm partial to my '96 D1 which is totally stock with 80k miles on it.
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  #467  
Old 05-18-2018, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ERover82 View Post
The only Land Rovers that ever looked great were stock and tastefully modified Series and Defenders.
Boy, do we have a definitive statement...
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  #468  
Old 05-18-2018, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ERover82 View Post
Stock D1s are ugly. Modified D1s look ok. D2s made the best of the design. Stock D3 is awkward and ugly. Modified D3 can look somewhat ok. D4 made the best of the design (again). Stock D5 is ugly. D5 SVX is still ugly, just slightly less. All D5s use 20" wheels at the minimum. They are not off-road vehicles more than a Subaru is.

The only Land Rovers that ever looked great were stock and tastefully modified Series and Defenders.
You're missing the point. "Ugly" is subjective and isn't the issue. The D5 is BORING. It is not unique. The fact that it is constantly compared to a Ford Explorer is very telling. It is milk toast and uninspiring. Perfect for soccer moms blending in at the mall.



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A stock LR3/4 and Range Rover are absolutely useless off-road once you introduce some rain in a mildly muddy, flat fields. Introduce some "obstacles" and you have a shit show. When I facilitated the LR dealer events, the stock trucks with street tires were hard pressed to get very far. On a dry day the "aid" devices worked their magic and all that. But a slightly modified D1/D2/RRC would do far better then a bone stock late model truck in wet terrain. I don't miss doing those events. It was a lot of work to get those stock late model trucks through the course without any damage - let alone just down the trail.
I have to disagree. I've been wheeling with LR3's and even an Evoque. Both did surprisingly well on city tires with traction control. There was one long steep muddy hill inparticular that every modified D1 and D2 was having issues with. The LR3 and Evoque zipped right up it. They might have issues with thick and deep mud but most trucks will.
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  #469  
Old 05-18-2018, 01:13 PM
kennith kennith is offline
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A stock LR3/4 and Range Rover are absolutely useless off-road once you introduce some rain in a mildly muddy, flat fields. Introduce some "obstacles" and you have a shit show. When I facilitated the LR dealer events, the stock trucks with street tires were hard pressed to get very far. On a dry day the "aid" devices worked their magic and all that. But a slightly modified D1/D2/RRC would do far better then a bone stock late model truck in wet terrain. I don't miss doing those events. It was a lot of work to get those stock late model trucks through the course without any damage - let alone just down the trail.
That training is a little more difficult than many might think; relying heavily on observation skills. A damp grassy field is not always something to sneeze at. Sometimes it's a nightmare. A lot of what applies to snow, sand, and "crusty mush" driving applies. Don't break through...

You're probably going to be fine, but if you aren't, it's going to be one hell of a long day if you're out by yourself.

You've got to keep in mind that most off pavement press tests are conducted out West in good weather. Hell, take some of the modded guys out of their rock gardens and drop them in the middle of a former farm in Eastern NC in a slight drizzle...

...See what happens.

Cheers,

Kennith
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  #470  
Old 05-18-2018, 01:33 PM
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True, on a manicured dry course. They won't get you to any destination in the real world though, not even down a fire road without inevitable stone damage. Even 15-16" C-E rated wheels/tires get damaged on fire roads. Those barbie wheels dont stand a chance.
I'm curious as to their level of competence on smaller wheels with more appropriate tires.

Fire roads may be easy, but they can be full of things that will damage wheels. There's almost always something hanging out under that nastiness, seemingly waiting for one tire to pop it out so it can find something to break.

I think the inconsistency is what leads inexperienced people to believe they are driving on difficult terrain when in such areas.

It's not just fire roads and vast expanses, though. Most people have no idea how to "carry momentum". I try to tell them to imagine they're driving a car with a poorly-functioning clutch, a broken engine mount, an out of adjustment parking brake, and a bad starter in heavy traffic.

Now let's see just how carefully they manage velocity and torque application. Smooth is king.

Cheers,

Kennith
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  #471  
Old 05-18-2018, 04:09 PM
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18" Compomotive wheels are compatible with the Discovery 5. See below



I have no doubt it's more capable than the LR4. However, like the LR4, it's hard to call it an off-road vehicle when, from the factory, it literally cannot reliably venture off-road for any meaningful distance. When it requires thousands in extra expense, hours of time, results in less cargo space, and looks like a cross-over, I call it a loss. It's just not worth it. There's easier and cheaper ways to drive a mom car off-road.
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  #472  
Old 05-18-2018, 04:36 PM
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There's easier and cheaper ways to drive a mom car off-road.
Accurate.

What is it again that justifies the LR price premium?
I don't think it's the off-road ability any more.
Maybe it's the "heritage" that makes it worth so much.
perhaps it's just the relative scarcity of the LR vehicle.
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  #473  
Old 05-18-2018, 05:03 PM
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Accurate.

What is it again that justifies the LR price premium?
I don't think it's the off-road ability any more.
Maybe it's the "heritage" that makes it worth so much.
perhaps it's just the relative scarcity of the LR vehicle.
I paid precisely $42,888 for my Discovery II in 2001.

Today, that's $61,124.34, accounting for inflation, so we're at 61 grand so far. That should be considered a fair price, as what I paid for my DII was a fair price given overall quality at the time.

Now we have to add something else, and that's the $10,000 that Land Rover can't do anything about. That accounts for all the modern conveniences people expect and that governments require. Don't have them? You're not selling that car as a current model. Period.

So, we're landing in at a fair price of $71,124.34; almost precisely what an HSE D5 is going to cost you once you fit the options you're absolutely going to fit. Dump a little profit on top; say, another 5 grand of room for negotiation, and you're at:

$76,124.34

That is, essentially, what a DII would cost today, if fitted with required and expected modern electronics. As purchased in 2001, it would be $66,124.34.

It is, therefore, the case that the prices have not changed. Since most everyone was fine with a DII hitting the low 40's when optioned up, nobody can logically complain about the astronomical prices these days. We can gripe, like I do, but that's all we can do. It's not Land Rover's fault, in the end.

That's just the way the cookie crumbles. We may not all like it, but it's a fair price.

Cheers,

Kennith
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Old 05-18-2018, 05:54 PM
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I don't believe jim is denying they've long been a premium, but that the premium was justified more then than now.
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  #475  
Old 05-18-2018, 06:42 PM
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I don't believe jim is denying they've long been a premium, but that the premium was justified more then than now.
They land right in line with what people will cross-shop. Anything less, and apparent quality won't even be slightly close.

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