And yet...

RBBailey

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Jul 26, 2004
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...what terror attacks have they stopped?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data

When will someone who actually works in the government just stop and say, "Uh... excuse me, is this legal?" When will the press actually get angry about all of it? Until we have people who will do their jobs, we won't have our freedom.












Key words: terror attack hate group neo islam government overthrow revolution teaparty obama muslim 9/11 revolt kill bomb shia home-grown 1984 ricin anthrax
 

antichrist

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Sep 7, 2004
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In your key words you left out the name of the administration that started this.
And no, it doesn't justify the continued activity, but as we all know, once the foot is in the door it's nearly impossible to close the door again.
 

Eliot

Well-known member
Feb 4, 2008
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We voted for the guy, and the we voted for the men in Congress who authorized the Patriot Act. Sure, it's an erosion of civil liberties but at some point that's on us. We voted to trade our freedom for security.
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
The government prayed on our emotions after 9/11 and opened this Pandora's Box. This administration is accelerating 10 fold what Bush put in place. There have always been people that have wanted to hurt Americans. After 9/11 we all freaked out. Compare it to the American Japanese Camps put into place after Perl Harbor and the start of the second world war. Knee jerk reactions never work. I've said it once and I'll say it again. Calm, Cool, Collective minds prevail. Remember the circus act we put together in Boston to catch a 17 year old kid? Total over reaction.

Since this message will be documented into record shortly I will self destruct in:

5

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Eliot

Well-known member
Feb 4, 2008
736
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Bozeman, MT
1920SF said:
As someone in the gov't, I can assure you that people stop everyday-far too often in many cases b/c of the proliferation of lawyers-and ask 'is this legal'.

Yup, death by a thousand lawyers.
 

antichrist

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1920SF said:
Here's something that may provide a different perspective on this non-scandal:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articl...your_phone_calls?page=0,0&wp_login_redirect=0

As someone in the gov't, I can assure you that people stop everyday-far too often in many cases b/c of the proliferation of lawyers-and ask 'is this legal'. The presumption that that isn't the case is patently false.
r-
Ray
Interesting article. Too bad his hypothetical example of justification wouldn't benefit from the collection of phone records. The reason people use throw away phones is because they can't be linked to an individual if reasonable care is taken.
 

1920SF

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Jan 6, 2007
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NoVA
antichrist said:
Interesting article. Too bad his hypothetical example of justification wouldn't benefit from the collection of phone records. The reason people use throw away phones is because they can't be linked to an individual if reasonable care is taken.

All depends on how you use the data. If you think a burner sidesteps the capability to hone in-cool.
 

RBBailey

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It does not depend on how you use the data. It depends on what is constitutionally (and morally) right.

Aren't you in the Marines? Aren't you sworn to protect the constitution? When I asked whether people were standing up to ask if this was legal, I meant YOU, not the lawyers. Our last hope is people like you who will stay their hands when they are ordered to do stuff that is against the law. People like me who type on the internet and try to get students to understand what is going on without being able to preach at them, don't stand a chance. It is up to the men on the ground to stop playing along.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6fnfVJzZT4
 

toadermcgee

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Sep 26, 2007
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Newburgh, IN
Eliot said:
We voted for the guy, and the we voted for the men in Congress who authorized the Patriot Act. Sure, it's an erosion of civil liberties but at some point that's on us. We voted to trade our freedom for security.

I didn't vote for Obama. I helped get one of them out of office the next chance to get rid of the other isn't until next year.
 

knewsom

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Jul 10, 2008
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La Mancha, CA
brian4d said:
The government prayed on our emotions after 9/11 and opened this Pandora's Box. This administration is accelerating 10 fold what Bush put in place. There have always been people that have wanted to hurt Americans. After 9/11 we all freaked out. Compare it to the American Japanese Camps put into place after Perl Harbor and the start of the second world war. Knee jerk reactions never work. I've said it once and I'll say it again. Calm, Cool, Collective minds prevail. Remember the circus act we put together in Boston to catch a 17 year old kid? Total over reaction.

:applause: :patriot:

Same shit, different President. When White Bush did this shit, all the Liberals were up in arms and all the Conservatives bent over fucking backwards to defend him. Now that Black Bush is doing it, it's the Conservatives frothing at the mouth while all the so-called Liberals are notably quiet on the subject. Furthermore, the Republican Congress not only is on record supporting this, but also for keeping it secret.

They don't give a shit about you.

They don't give a shit about "rights."

I don't care if they have an R or a D next to their name, if their votes do not show their support for your constitutionally protected rights, then they do not support them, and I for one won't support them in office.

This is the tip of the iceberg, boys... they're not just recording call data and internet data. They're recording the calls. They're recording the communication. They just "don't listen to them without a court order".
 
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1920SF

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Jan 6, 2007
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RBBailey said:
It does not depend on how you use the data. It depends on what is constitutionally (and morally) right.

Aren't you in the Marines? Aren't you sworn to protect the constitution? When I asked whether people were standing up to ask if this was legal, I meant YOU, not the lawyers. Our last hope is people like you who will stay their hands when they are ordered to do stuff that is against the law. People like me who type on the internet and try to get students to understand what is going on without being able to preach at them, don't stand a chance. It is up to the men on the ground to stop playing along.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6fnfVJzZT4

RB-
Yep, in the Marines-and well acquainted with the oath and more than passively aware of the nuance of what is being discussed here. So with all that as context and background, I'm not concerned about the loss of the 4th amendment rights because of this. I think this is a faux scandal amidst the media's current issue with having their shit pulled because of the national security investigation that broke a few weeks back. So they mined out other things, perpetuate outrage (even when it doesn't really exist) and rile people up on both ends of the spectrum. Particularly if they are far out on that spectrum.

That does raise an interesting point underlying a lot of this-what I think it illustrates is that the position of POTUS very quickly overcomes idealism with pragmatic realism. People are calling this a 4th Bush administration because of the actions taken in the name of counter-terror...the irony is rich indeed.

What's more ironic is what people would be saying if the idealism expressed in the u-tube clip and in other actions curtailed CT programs and such to the point where we were attacked again. At the end of the day people can say whatever they want standing on the outside-its easy, its comfortable, and there really isn't any significant repercussions for it.

I think about the obligations of the oath a lot, not just because I take it but also because I'm fortunate enough to administer it from time to time to others. Its not taken lightly-and neither is this; but between the legal opinion and the practical application what I don't think has happened is the significant loss of individual's privacy rights. Not anymore than traffic cameras, sensors on roads, and any number of other things done everyday both by the government and by private entities.

Of course we, you-the citizens-can choose to roll that back. I wonder if we're willing to take that risk though? I don't think we are.
r-
Ray
 

AMCM Disco

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Jun 20, 2006
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Seriously - we the average citizen is more tracked by our economic ties than the governement cares to do. We simply don't pop on the "Farmer's" radar as need to know (yet). Right now, we are more valuable as fuel for the economic engine so our purchases and habits are more cookied and used by private entities than there is government involvement.
 

antichrist

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1920SF said:
If you think a burner sidesteps the capability to hone in-cool.
Ok, please explain to all us ignorant people exactly who's phone records the phone company would provide to the NSA when both parties (one from the US, one from Yemen) have used throw away phones which are disposed of before the NSA even has the particular records of the 2 anonymous "customers".

Ignoring the constitutionality issue, the data might be useful to the NSA, but the guy defending it didn't think through his argument very well. That is the sort of muddled thinking that gets us in the messes we end up in.
 
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1920SF

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antichrist said:
Ok, please explain to all us ignorant people exactly who's phone records the phone company would provide to the NSA when both parties (one from the US, one from Yemen) have used throw away phones which are disposed of before the NSA even has the particular records of the 2 anonymous "customers".

Ignoring the constitutionality issue, the data might be useful to the NSA, but the guy defending it didn't think through his argument very well. That is the sort of muddled thinking that gets us in the messes we end up in.

There is a lot of ways to use the meta data-without getting into specifics-even if two parties are using throw aways it is the activity that is interesting; that can be correlated with locational and timeframe data-all of which adds context and helps narrow the problem set. Even if they always used such things the repeated activity would be an indicator to then employ other means, other INTs, to further refine what is going on.

In a lot of applications where I've done work I didn't care about the specifics, it was the patterns that matter as those tell you a lot without spending a lot of time breaking down things. For that you need data-this is just one (big) data stream in many ways.
 

RBBailey

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Ray, the problem with your speculation that this is a non-story is that it is a story that we have all been waiting to break. Anyone who is paying attention knows this stuff is going on. The story is important because now we see how wide spread it is, and now we have people paying attention.

When Congress and Bush passed the Patriot Act, we all looked the other way. Personally, I didn't like it, but I thought that the initial version of the act, the things it actually did (not the way it evolved) were something one could argue were needed in the short term -- it was supposed to be temporary. I was very much against the second passing of the Patriot Act, and you have all seen me time and time again rail against anything that violates our Bill of Rights.

You have no right to be unconcerned about this. It is your duty to be concerned. You actually said you were not concerned about the loss of 4th Amendment rights -- you broke your oath.

It is not the media's issue. The leaks were from the White House. They are trying to blame the media for leaking their leaks. They illegally spied on the AP and others in order to try to prove their case. And when they were caught, they claimed it was in the name of tracking down leaks... the press doesn't leak. The press reports. The press has a right to release the leaks they get. There are very few instances where a court has limited the press in this freedom when the government has been able to show that someone's life is hanging directly in the balance.

You are seeing this all wrong. You have forgotten that the Constitution is designed to attempt to prevent this from happening, but it relies on people who, by their actions, keep it relevant and alive. We are not supposed to have "just a stream of data" taken from us in the name of security. To think otherwise is to forget your history. It is to assume it won't happen here. It is a tell that you are living in a bubble. It is a cheat on our future generations; because if it doesn't happen to us, it will happen to them -- someone will use this data for mal-intent, whether against an individual or on us as a whole.

To not understand this is to completely miss the entire reason for the Constitution and the Amendments in the first place.

And finally... where has this all important data stream actually done it's job in catching a terrorist? Outside of the U.S., it has happened a lot. (Which is why I do not mind warrantless taps on stuff going on outside our borders, yet was always wary of the slippery slope.) But when has it happened inside? Why did it not stop the Boston bombing with all of the Tweets and posts he made BEFORE the bombing? Why did it not stop him when Russia warned us about him?