Irony

ChrismonDA

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May 2, 2004
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NC Johnston Co
RBBailey said:
Obama today: I found out about the IRS targeting certain groups from a news report.

In the news today: http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/13/us/justice-ap-phones/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Most of the rest of the world just turns on the TV to get their news.

Go figure then he says he is for freedom of speech. One question why is the IRS going to be the ones who are for Obamacare? That one behooves me? Why not the US department of health? Look, things are going to get really bad when the government tries to run healthcare. I say it now mark my words, it is going to be bad. But my GF thinks that it is the best thing since sliced bread, she has yet to meet my friend a Brit who left the UK because of the aforementioned post. And he is allowed to own a firearm but several.I want her to try and debate him on universal health care. It has yet to happen but I am sure it would be very interesting.
 
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Ballah06

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2007
5,638
16
Savannah, GA
ChrismonDA said:
Go figure then he says he is for freedom of speech. One question why is the IRS going to be the ones who are for Obamacare? That one behooves me? Why not the US department of health? Look, things are going to get really bad when the government tries to run healthcare. I say it now mark my words, it is going to be bad. But my GF thinks that it is the best thing since sliced bread, she has yet to meet my friend a Brit who left the UK because of the aforementioned post. And he is allowed to own a firearm but several.I want her to try and debate him on universal health care. It has yet to happen but I am sure it would be very interesting.

Universal healthcare is not something that can work, as i have witnessed firsthand, growing up in Russia. While on paper, everyone had 'coverage,' the truth was that you had to jump through hoops and know people in order to actually get anything remotely resembling treatment for whatever ailed you. IIRC, even getting basic treatment (e.g., seeing a nurse) was a hassle, since there was one assigned to a specific area, for which she was responsible. I think they made housecalls. But unless you knew her personally or could give her a 'good' reason to come visit you, let's just say you may have had to wait for help for quite some time. Same applied when going to the hospitals; people would get admitted but only get worse since the staff did not exactly have the incentive to treat them.

So, all in all, universal anything (as in gov't programs) IMO is not going to work. When the benefits of any government-administered program are supposed to benefit the masses, with only a fraction of the population paying for the program, the quality of provided product will decline with time, as well as the amount of those who receive any resemblance of a quality product. There will always be those who get a better product under any program (probably because they are willing to work for it), while those who cannot afford it, will at best be slightly better off than they were before that program being instituted.
 

RBBailey

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Jul 26, 2004
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Oregon
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The reason they have the IRS controlling the healthcare program is that it would have been unconstitutional for them to take money from you for Obamacare. (Didn't anyone pay attention to these things?) By giving it to the IRS, they make it a tax. Of course, this is also unconstitutional. So when the Supreme Court made the decision to allow it to happen they called it both things at once so that at any given time it could be one or the other, thereby calling it Constitutional -- hey, I don't make this stuff up, just read the court's decision for yourself.

People need to start paying attention to what is going on this week with the IRS and the wire taps and all that. It's nice that people flip out about Bush tapping known terrorist phone numbers. But no one seems to care that our own government is now spying on our own press corp.
 

knewsom

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2008
5,262
0
La Mancha, CA
Ballah06 said:
Universal healthcare is not something that can work, as i have witnessed firsthand, growing up in Russia. While on paper, everyone had 'coverage,' the truth was that you had to jump through hoops and know people in order to actually get anything remotely resembling treatment for whatever ailed you. IIRC, even getting basic treatment (e.g., seeing a nurse) was a hassle, since there was one assigned to a specific area, for which she was responsible. I think they made housecalls. But unless you knew her personally or could give her a 'good' reason to come visit you, let's just say you may have had to wait for help for quite some time. Same applied when going to the hospitals; people would get admitted but only get worse since the staff did not exactly have the incentive to treat them.

So, all in all, universal anything (as in gov't programs) IMO is not going to work. When the benefits of any government-administered program are supposed to benefit the masses, with only a fraction of the population paying for the program, the quality of provided product will decline with time, as well as the amount of those who receive any resemblance of a quality product. There will always be those who get a better product under any program (probably because they are willing to work for it), while those who cannot afford it, will at best be slightly better off than they were before that program being instituted.

This is completely ignoring the fact that it works extremely well in many other countries, and also the fact that "Obamacare" is not universal heathcare. ...it's an insurance mandate coupled with a subsidy for lower-income people.
 

RBBailey

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Obama himself said that the system in place now is designed to create a universal system in 10 to 15 years. He specifically told the audience that they simply have to be patient.

I would agree that a universal system works well in other countries. However, America was not designed to work this way. It's like saying a Ferrari is stupid because it cannot off-road. America's vastness, and vast diversity, does not lend itself to a one-size-fits-all system of any kind. Especially healthcare.

Besides, going down this road now... well, it's completely ignoring the fact that it is un-Constitutional.


....back on topic:

I would like to see if anyone can defend, legally, the idea that the Justice Dept. should have the right to spy on the AP.

I would like to see if anyone can defend, legally, the idea that the IRS should target specific individuals and organizations based on ideology and politics.

I would also like to see if anyone can defend the fact that Obama is the boss, Holder is the boss, but that they do not bear any responsibility in these situations.
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
benghazi
AP Wiretaps
IRS

It's like a damn circus. If Rome isn't Burning yet, it will be soon. When will the press wake up and realize this isn't a witch hunt, rather, a proper branding of a man. There I said it. He's just a man.
 

knewsom

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2008
5,262
0
La Mancha, CA
RBBailey said:
Obama himself said that the system in place now is designed to create a universal system in 10 to 15 years. He specifically told the audience that they simply have to be patient.

I would agree that a universal system works well in other countries. However, America was not designed to work this way. It's like saying a Ferrari is stupid because it cannot off-road. America's vastness, and vast diversity, does not lend itself to a one-size-fits-all system of any kind. Especially healthcare.

Besides, going down this road now... well, it's completely ignoring the fact that it is un-Constitutional.

Mandates are not exactly new, if states can do them, the federal government can do them - you may say it is unconstitutional, but it has held up in court. In any case, I'm not sure a one-size fits-all approach will be ideal here either, I'd personally like to see a Federally funded approach through the states.


RBBailey said:
....back on topic:

I would like to see if anyone can defend, legally, the idea that the Justice Dept. should have the right to spy on the AP.

I would like to see if anyone can defend, legally, the idea that the IRS should target specific individuals and organizations based on ideology and politics.

I would also like to see if anyone can defend the fact that Obama is the boss, Holder is the boss, but that they do not bear any responsibility in these situations.

Justice can order spying on the President if they want. Nobody is above the law. ...that doesn't mean they can censor the AP, and I don't think they should be able to, but investigation is not only ok, but necessary sometimes. ...but they should follow the necessary protocol for doing so, which they did not do in this instance, and I don't believe their record-pulling was justified.

The IRS should absolutely not target individuals and organizations based on political affiliation. Ever. Period.

...Obama is the Boss and Holder is the Boss, and they absolutely bear responsibility for keeping their house in order, just as Bush bears responsibility for the crimes committed under his administration.
 

AMCM Disco

Well-known member
Jun 20, 2006
475
0
Cali
It's been said before - will somebody please just give this guy a blowjob so we can seal the deal already?!

"The announcement came less than two years after he was re-elected to office in a victory pledging an end to the ___________ and promoting ____________ reform. "

"A ________________ at the _______________ in _____ triggered an investigation that eventually exposed an administration full of political espionage and sabotage."

"As the Justice Department and the House Judiciary Committee continued their investigations, evidence mounted against the president. ______ resisted turning over key pieces of evidence, including tape-recorded conversations he had held in his office."

"On ________, _____, the Committee voted that the president be impeached, claiming he had "prevented, obstructed, and impeded the administration of justice," they listed nine specific reasons for the charge."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/impeachment/timeline/richard_nixon.html

If you take the text talking about the Nixon debacle... blank out the specific names, it reads eerily similar to things in the recent media.
 

ChrismonDA

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My grandfather was a Dr. for over 60 years served in North Africa with Patton. He was great as a kid in the late 70's he did house calls on his lunch break and many I would accompany him. When he would treat someone here in rural NC a lot of people did not have money or insurance so he would take fresh vegetables, homemade moon shine, etc and his cost at the time was ten dollars. But can you imagine a doctor doing that today? Insurance would not cover you for malpractice. Its only going to get worse causing people who do have insurance their premiums are going to go up with crappy service and red tape. Ask your PCP if this is going to work and they will say no.
 

Blueboy

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
3,219
470
Back in the USA; Rockwood, PA
Health insurance is required in Switzerland. For my wife and me it costs about $1,100 per month. we each have separate $1,700 deductible. No drug coverage. So basically we pay for everything plus the monthly premium. My wife has a skin problem and has had cancer in the past. It will take her 2 months to get an appointment with a specialist. Oh yeah, we really are enjoying the mandated health care in a Country that is very efficient. I can only imagine what we will be facing upon our return.
 

pinkytoe69

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2012
1,704
184
minnesota
ChrismonDA said:
For one you need the second. Just can not understand why they can not figure that out.

The only way to ensure ones most basic right is with the threat of mortal violence behind it.

I understand the universe tends toward chaos, but, after 10000 years, its discouraging that this is still where we are at.
 

knewsom

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Jul 10, 2008
5,262
0
La Mancha, CA
ChrismonDA said:
For one you need the second. Just can not understand why they can not figure that out.

Ditto that. Liberalism revolves around personal liberties, dunno why so many "liberals" want to take away the balance of power and remove people's ability to defend themselves. It's a big example of cognitive dissonance.
 

mjbrox

Well-known member
Jun 30, 2008
1,812
48
Golden CO
brian4d said:
benghazi
AP Wiretaps
IRS

It's like a damn circus. If Rome isn't Burning yet, it will be soon. When will the press wake up and realize this isn't a witch hunt, rather, a proper branding of a man. There I said it. He's just a man.


haha, yea i miss those days when the prez sent 4448 (and counting) to war over a lie about WMDs

But to your point, Obama is just a man. I was actually at his inauguration 4 years ago selling handwarmers to people (I made $400) and it amazed me how people where acting like Obama getting elected was going change everything.
 

RBBailey

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Jul 26, 2004
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knewsom said:
Ditto that. Liberalism revolves around personal liberties, dunno why so many "liberals" want to take away the balance of power and remove people's ability to defend themselves. It's a big example of cognitive dissonance.

Kris,

I think I've said this before, you are what I think of as Liberal. These people in charge of this country now, on both sides of the isle (ironically) are Leftists. I myself am actually a Liberal. A Conservative Liberal. At first it sounds like it doesn't work, but then... Libertarians are basically Conservative Liberals.

I suppose none of us can actually be perfectly labeled though. Well, I'm usually just a dork, so that's fits, but you know what I mean.