Thought about this the other day:

[RBBailey]

I'm proud of these business owners, and I hope the government won't find anyone else to sell or deliver they're insane purchases as of late.

http://cnsnews.com/blog/gregory-gwy...s-restricting-sales-government-agencies-areas

When it comes to the recent ammo purchases -- a contact of mine who is close to me and who is the real thing and who is involved in this stuff has done some calculations and has found that the amount of ammo purchased for practice is far and away beyond what even the Seals or Rangers or Special Forces use.

A recent estimate compared the ammo purchase to the ammo actually used in the last ten years in Iraq -- at the same rate, it would increase the war another 20 years.

 

[1920SF]

I approve the notion of restricting sales to municipalities-federal level when it also impacts the citizenry.

However I think the ammo front has less transparency; what is difficult to gauge is how much ammo has been consumed throughout the past decade in the preps for deployment across the spectrum of the Armed Forces (well beyond SOF, the GPF can eat ammo since size of the force has a quality unto itself). So calculations based off one unit size rate of expenditure over a protracted period may not be accurate given the scale of things.

Moreover a lot of the services are replacing older stocks that had been consumed over the past decade-anecdotatlly I was using Vietnam era ammo deep into prep time for Iraq deployments depending on which DODIC you are talking about-smart logisticians that have seen the end of the gravy train coming have placed bulk orders over the past few years to make up for the lean times that are to come. (much like many of the vehicles have been reconditioned in order to prepare for that too).

Simply put I don't put a lot of stock in the concern about massive ammo purchases to prepare for martial law or whatever (insert conspiracy theory). Quite frankly it doesn't take much ammo to keep people down in actual execution.

On the other hand one way to limit firearms freedom is to remove the source of ammunition and for awhile the large contract vehicle could do that-either intentionally, or or otherwise (I presume otherwise right now but the effect is the same).
r-
Ray

 

[RBBailey]

Ah, but what you are missing about the ammo procurements is the fact that this is the TSA, USDA, FDA, the Post Office, Social Security and the like that are getting the ammo, not the military. We are being told that the federal security guards at the local Medicare office need billions of rounds of .40 hollow-point.

The purchase orders are listed as public info on various government budget info web sites.

 

[rovercanus]

http://www.hornady.com/support/availability
http://www.federalpremium.com/company/faq.aspx
Conspiracy busted, at least on the government buying up all of the ammunition to keep it out of citizens hands.
One thing I don't think is right is that our military can't use hollow point rounds against foreign threats but U.S law inforcment entities can use it against U.S. citizens.
Then again I guess the point is moot when they can to you out with a drone.

 

[1920SF]

Ah, but what you are missing about the ammo procurements is the fact that this is the TSA, USDA, FDA, the Post Office, Social Security and the like that are getting the ammo, not the military. We are being told that the federal security guards at the local Medicare office need billions of rounds of .40 hollow-point.

The purchase orders are listed as public info on various government budget info web sites.

Actually I wasn't missing that, a few months back a friend emailed me one of those public disclosures because a bunch of tin foil hat folk were spinning on it-a little bit of napkin math starts to make it a lot less sinister when you take into account DHS (a worthless organization, but the product of our fear) having an umbrella capacity and role for law enforcement training nationwide. When you look at large round numbers of badged LE personnel and then multiply that by a normal qualifying string of fire (say 40 rounds of .40 for qualifying) + a practice round, twice a year the amount of ammo purchased starts to get consumed very quickly.

The numbers were likely highly inaccurate, but the point is it is very easy to start to find legitimate reasons for the seemingly high numbers of being ordered. Then again I don't ascribe malice to the motivations of a lot of government entities the way that some standing on the outside seem to. I do ascribe it to procurement folks knowing that very lean years were coming and the time to stock up was now.

The use of hollow points is an interesting discussion about the Law of Armed Conflict/Geneva Convention vs what is allowable for internal security. Personally I think it's asinine that we couldn't use hollow points in many applications-though the Black Hills 77gr ballistic hollow point 5.56mm rounds are fantastic and work quite well.

 

[rovercanus]

The use of hollow points is an interesting discussion about the Law of Armed Conflict/Geneva Convention vs what is allowable for internal security. Personally I think it's asinine that we couldn't use hollow points in many applications-though the Black Hills 77gr ballistic hollow point 5.56mm rounds are fantastic and work quite well.

The only advantage I can see for using ball rounds is perhaps penetration of body armor.
This is why I will often load my SDW with alternating hollow points and FMJ.
But at rifle velocites at close quarters body armor won't do much for you anyway.
Now I feel like going to the range.
Good thing I have lots of 9mm and .40!

 

[bri]

Actually I wasn't missing that, a few months back a friend emailed me one of those public disclosures because a bunch of tin foil hat folk were spinning on it-a little bit of napkin math starts to make it a lot less sinister when you take into account DHS (a worthless organization, but the product of our fear) having an umbrella capacity and role for law enforcement training nationwide. When you look at large round numbers of badged LE personnel and then multiply that by a normal qualifying string of fire (say 40 rounds of .40 for qualifying) + a practice round, twice a year the amount of ammo purchased starts to get consumed very quickly.

The numbers were likely highly inaccurate, but the point is it is very easy to start to find legitimate reasons for the seemingly high numbers of being ordered. Then again I don't ascribe malice to the motivations of a lot of government entities the way that some standing on the outside seem to. I do ascribe it to procurement folks knowing that very lean years were coming and the time to stock up was now.

The use of hollow points is an interesting discussion about the Law of Armed Conflict/Geneva Convention vs what is allowable for internal security. Personally I think it's asinine that we couldn't use hollow points in many applications-though the Black Hills 77gr ballistic hollow point 5.56mm rounds are fantastic and work quite well.

Seriously. Lean years ahead is what is driving gov't ammo sales now? Have you ever seen government purchases like this happen before... I mean before Sep '12 when they kicked up purchases? It happens ever election and this time it is worse. With all the weapons ban laws going into effect, civil unrest and the fact that the gov't wants to drive up cost of ammunition its pretty tough to argue that practice is why the are purchasing this much now.

Lean times... I don't think that people really understand exactly how lean its going to be if Obama care and economy continue the trend.

 

[1920SF]

Weapons bans? You think that's actually going to happen?

Civil unrest? .40 hollow point isn't going to do shit for that-hence my point about ammo not being all that useful for population control, at least not on the scale being described and not in the calibers being talked about here.

People are going to see what they want to see of course, but I don't put stock in the government conspiracy theory stuff-guess I've been a part of the government for too long to see it being feasible.

 

[1920SF]

The only advantage I can see for using ball rounds is perhaps penetration of body armor.
This is why I will often load my SDW with alternating hollow points and FMJ.
But at rifle velocites at close quarters body armor won't do much for you anyway.
Now I feel like going to the range.
Good thing I have lots of 9mm and .40!

The terminal effects of ball vs hollow points are certainly vastly different. In terms of pistol calibers, I honestly never thought much about it b/c I've never used a pistol for something other than taking to a chow hall when I didn't want to carry a real weapon around.

The 77gr MK262 is a great round for the M4 barrel length to let it reach out a little further and knock down a little better (at least from what I've seen in practice). I never found penetration-except barriers (in which case go to a different application)-to be a big deal. Most of the folks on the other end aren't wearing body armor so without hard contact (bone) it could pass right through for sure, but a few more rounds never hurt...so to speak.

Which is an interesting contrast b/c I've seen kids take a chest shot with 7.62x39 at 20' with SAPIs on and get the wind knocked out of them, with a good bruise, but still be able to return fire. Thankfully I never got to try that myself. Equation changes with AP.

The whole notion of the humanity of killing is absurd, but such is the nature of the world we live in. We can't have hollow point rounds for better terminal ballistics in conflict-but thermobaric weapons are just fine.

I'm looking forward to some range time in the near term myself.

 

[hafaday]

I have nothing to offer in this thread. but did find, in Federal's FAQ's section, an interesting Q and A.

"What is the shelf life of ammo and storage?

Store reloading components and ammunition in a cool, dry place, protected from direct exposure to sunlight. If stored properly there is a 10-year shelf life on loaded ammunition"

I only find this interesting because, we were opening cans of (linked).50 cal. that had actual data cards. The oldest data card, had a manufacture date of Dec. 7th 1942. I might have a picture of it somewhere.

 

[RBBailey]

Actually I wasn't missing that, a few months back a friend emailed me one of those public disclosures because a bunch of tin foil hat folk were spinning on it-a little bit of napkin math starts to make it a lot less sinister when you take into account DHS (a worthless organization, but the product of our fear) having an umbrella capacity and role for law enforcement training nationwide. When you look at large round numbers of badged LE personnel and then multiply that by a normal

To be clear, you did miss it in your first post. You were speaking of military acquisitions, as far as I can see.

I estimate that there are about 150,000 gun toting federal law enforcement officers in the U.S., meaning that the recent procurement of 2.5 billion rounds would allow for 16,600+ rounds per officer. This does not take into consideration the normal yearly purchase of rounds of other calibers. My own viewing of the purchase orders have all shown .40, not rifle, nor 9mm.

If they were all of them training at once (which is what they have said the ammo is for) they would each have to fire 320 rounds per week for an entire year.

If.... If all 150,000 went to the advanced handgun training course, they would be qualified in that course in five days. Assuming that they use up their weekly allowance in one day while on specialized training, that would still leave about 14,000 rounds of ammo left over for each of the 150,000 agents.

This does not take into account the fact that the training often uses sim rounds, not even the rounds they have purchased.

Your idea that they are stockpiling for lean years is effectively nullified by your argument that the ammunition manufacture companies themselves have stated that there is no shortage, plan to slow down, or reason to believe there will be a shortage in the future. (Although, prices have gone up and the shelves are empty in most places where I live.)

And to be clear, I personally did not bring up any conspiracy theory.

Oh, and the stated reason for law enforcement using hollow point is for the safety factor of the bullet not going through walls and such in a civilian area. Don't know about Geneva Convention -- But they were outlawed by military use long before that.

 

[bri]

Weapons bans? You think that's actually going to happen?

Civil unrest? .40 hollow point isn't going to do shit for that-hence my point about ammo not being all that useful for population control, at least not on the scale being described and not in the calibers being talked about here.

People are going to see what they want to see of course, but I don't put stock in the government conspiracy theory stuff-guess I've been a part of the government for too long to see it being feasible.

What conspiricy stuff?

 

[1920SF]

What conspiricy stuff?

The bulk orders of ammo has fueled quite a bit of anti-gov't conspiracy theorists for a few months now. I had a buddy forward me a similiar link (same story, different outlet) a few months ago.

RB-
The numbers I've seen for LE are a bit larger than that, starts to change the math to a degree:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=71

I also don't recall ammo companies saying there is no shortage-as my ownly optic on that is the same as yours; when I go in stores (or look online) for what I want-it's not there and is on indef backorder.
r-
Ray

 

[kennith]

If they were all of them training at once (which is what they have said the ammo is for) they would each have to fire 320 rounds per week for an entire year.

I'm certainly not suggesting that's common practice, but if it was, it wouldn't be out of line.

If I don't off at least a thousand rounds at the range during training periods, it's because I can't afford it. Money gets in the way, but even a thousand on one firearm isn't out of line. Spread across three ready firearms, it's not even adequate training.

I only train on three ready firearms and one preferred firearm at any time. The last is overly expensive to feed, but I keep up as much as possible.

I prefer to fire at least 500 out of each. I go as far as I can afford, of course. Ammunition is expensive, and nowadays it's hard to find easily.

When money is good, though, I'll fire as many as 2,000 in a month. There is no such thing as too much training.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[bri]

The bulk orders of ammo has fueled quite a bit of anti-gov't conspiracy theorists for a few months now. I had a buddy forward me a similiar link (same story, different outlet) a few months ago.

RB-
The numbers I've seen for LE are a bit larger than that, starts to change the math to a degree:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=71

I also don't recall ammo companies saying there is no shortage-as my ownly optic on that is the same as yours; when I go in stores (or look online) for what I want-it's not there and is on indef backorder.
r-
Ray

EDIT:::

RB - Maybe you could summarise what you mean by linking. Some of us are tired of searching for proof. I'd rather have it spoon fed and if I don't agree, then I research.

1920... tell me what the conspiricy is. Seems like most is obvious.

- I can't even guess how quickly someone trained blows through the ammount of ammo that I have in my lifetime.

- 1920, you are right, the government does purge and they are. When and how they do so is interesting.

As far as I know on the ammo shortage, every gun enthusiast and government agency is buying. One needs only to go to any sports store to see this.

Actions speak louder than words.

 

[bri]

Weapons bans? You think that's actually going to happen?
<snip>

Sure, I think they'll try something worthless again. Besides, it keeps your eyes off the real problem and satisfies people that don't know any better. All the more important to do it.

Almost everyone I talk to is unaware about what weapons are really a problem, most think an ban will help. Most think Obama care will help. As a nation we are about ready to accept it.

Soon it will be painfully obvious if either help(ed).

 

[p m]

When you look at large round numbers of badged LE personnel and then multiply that by a normal qualifying string of fire (say 40 rounds of .40 for qualifying) + a practice round, twice a year the amount of ammo purchased starts to get consumed very quickly.

Not to contradict anyone or contribute anything meaningful here, but I doubt 40 rounds will qualify anyone. Even for me to be able to carry a firearm in the theater (maybe three weeks to a month in a year), the qual takes about 50 pistol and 50 M4 rounds. I've seen LEO qualifying alongside, and they did a lot more shooting than I did (same time on range, but not at liberty to take forever to aim).

 

[Durt D1ver]

We usually go through about 250 - 300 rounds per officer per day at the range, just for handgun.

 

[1920SF]

1920... tell me what the conspiricy is. Seems like most is obvious.

- I can't even guess how quickly someone trained blows through the ammount of ammo that I have in my lifetime.

- 1920, you are right, the government does purge and they are. When and how they do so is interesting.

As far as I know on the ammo shortage, every gun enthusiast and government agency is buying. One needs only to go to any sports store to see this.

Actions speak louder than words.

Here's a decent article laying out a few of the theories (as well as some more rational perspective):
http://www.infowars.com/why-1-6-bil...government-wants-to-save-you-money-of-course/

I should have caveats my language a bit more as almost every time I hear someone referencing them bulk purchase it is due to concern about gov't intrusion in some form or fashion-that may not have been the context in this thread at first.

PM- wholeheartedly concur-was merely using 40 rounds for a final qual as a ref point. 40 rounds 1-2x a year should not make anyone feel comfortable with someone handling a weapon.
R-
Ray

 

[bri]

So forget about why they are doing it. You'll always save on a quantity purchase so there is no argument to that. Why now? When have they done it in the past?