M
montoya
Guest
Just found this in a google search. The articl on the right skinny column titled "Briefly" says pretty much the same thing as Automobile Mag. It also predicts a 2010 based on the LR3/T5 platform. If they had to develope a whole new Defender from the ground up, I'd agree on no new US Defenders. But costs to reskin the LR3 and maintain existing collision standards should be relatively lower than a ground up design. Anoter thing, Mercedes will be producing the all new G-Wagon which is supposed to be priced less than the new M-Class. Ford would need something to compete with that.
http://www.thelandroverchronicle.com/new_page_727.htm
http://www.thelandroverchronicle.com/new_page_727.htm
Since Rover pretty much lost the MoD contracts, I would be surprised if they keep making "real" Defenders much longer.
Everyone is going to unibody or independent suspension and all that crap. Land Rover will follow, particularly since they are run by Ford.
My two cents.....
Everyone is going to unibody or independent suspension and all that crap. Land Rover will follow, particularly since they are run by Ford.
My two cents.....
A
AndyThoma
Guest
I read in C&D about the new G-wagon. Suppose to be IFS/IRS and unibody now. It will retail the lockers ll the way around but MB wants to target the rr3 with the redesign. I guess if you want a real MB offroader you buy a unimog.
From what I have heard....
1. After 2006 the current Defender will no long meet UK safety standards. So a redesign is eminent.
2. Land Rover didn't really "loose" the militarty contracts. They did not really want them anymore. There was no money in it at all, they basically sold them at cost to the militaries. This is due to such high specifications for each vehicle. I believe there are over 50 different shades of olive drab paint that they used.
3. IMOHO...Yes Land Rover is changing a lot, but after going to a car show today, I did not find any other truck or SUV that I would want more than an LR3 or a Range Rover. Land Rover has had to adapt to keep up with the other companies, and in my opinion they have done an excellent job of sticking to off-road performance.
1. After 2006 the current Defender will no long meet UK safety standards. So a redesign is eminent.
2. Land Rover didn't really "loose" the militarty contracts. They did not really want them anymore. There was no money in it at all, they basically sold them at cost to the militaries. This is due to such high specifications for each vehicle. I believe there are over 50 different shades of olive drab paint that they used.
3. IMOHO...Yes Land Rover is changing a lot, but after going to a car show today, I did not find any other truck or SUV that I would want more than an LR3 or a Range Rover. Land Rover has had to adapt to keep up with the other companies, and in my opinion they have done an excellent job of sticking to off-road performance.
peter said:So in the long run no SUV will be capable to manage hard-core trails. I mean the good shit, not trails that a subraru or LR3 can go through.
I don't think J**p would ever make the mistake of offering a Wrangler that couldn't be equipped to handle the most demanding trails. And, it will always be offered at a price point that makes it practical for such use. As capable as our rovers are straight from the factory when new, 99% of owners would probably never dream of putting such an expensive (when new) vehicle into a position where it might become scratched or otherwise damaged. I wonder how many of people who buy new H1's ever even leave the pavement.
I guess my point is its just dollars and cents good sense for the companies to offer soft SUV's at this point in time. Maybe with demand by the soccer moms falling off with these higher gas prices the companies will start building their trucks up to appeal to the off-roader niche market.
At the very least, I hope that the aftermarket continues to come up with ways to upgrade the soccer mom haulers when us off road enthusiasts buy them used!
4
4n24wd
Guest
I may be started something with this statement but : FORD = Failure, any questions ? What id the predominant make that always gets recalled for 1 thing or another, NOT LR, NO TOYOTAS IN THERE, FORDS !!!!!!!! About 1 every month or two. So if LR's are becoming Ford's then I"ll opt to keep a distance for fear of shit rubbing off or falling off on me !!!! End of story.
cmoore207 said:I don't think J**p would ever make the mistake of offering a Wrangler that couldn't be equipped to handle the most demanding trails. And, it will always be offered at a price point that makes it practical for such use. As capable as our rovers are straight from the factory when new, 99% of owners would probably never dream of putting such an expensive (when new) vehicle into a position where it might become scratched or otherwise damaged. I wonder how many of people who buy new H1's ever even leave the pavement.
I guess my point is its just dollars and cents good sense for the companies to offer soft SUV's at this point in time. Maybe with demand by the soccer moms falling off with these higher gas prices the companies will start building their trucks up to appeal to the off-roader niche market.
At the very least, I hope that the aftermarket continues to come up with ways to upgrade the soccer mom haulers when us off road enthusiasts buy them used!
You just reminded me of a revelation I had last fall. I used to think that other Rover Drivers that I would encounter in traffic would look at my truck and be impressed that it is all set up for REAL offroading in the traditional LR way......until I encountered a couple at a gas pump in their clean stock D2. He asked me "Why in the world would do THAT to a perfectly beautiful Discovery? Look at all the scratches and stickers on it, and how in the world do you get into it, it's so high?" Then his wife chirps in: "No offence, but I wouldn't be caught dead in a truck looking like that!" I was speechless. Changed my whole perception. No surprise to most of you I'm sure.
4n24wd said:
Wow are you new? I have had more recalls on my D2 than all my Fords, which is all I drove for many years 500k on 2 different Town Cars, also factor in that there are more Fords in any major city than Rovers in the US and Canada.
I don't think anybody buys a Rover for reliability or because they are maintenance free. I have 2 and wonder everyday what it is going to be today, I love them but hassle free they are not.
Your referance to Toyota may be reliable
Its funny to go through this forum and many others on the internet. Most people seem to have this sense of foreboding for Land Rover. What many people need to realize is that for 90% of the people that go into a Land Rover dealership they are only looking for that *bling* factor my car has this or that. Imagine what they were saying when the Series III was being scrapped in favor of the 90. While there were many people saying okay, there were more than likely people like we have now saying this is the end of Land Rover. In order for Land Rover to continue in the marketplace they need to do what is necessary to stay afloat. As much as it saddens the old school Land Rover fans you always hear change is inevitable. I would have to say to all of the old school LR fans (I feel I'm included in this group) look at what land rover is doing. When was the last time Land Rover won any award for their vehicles. The last one I remember was the 1995 disco getting the four wheeler of the year award. Now look the Disco 3 gets motor trend suv of the year. I think good things are coming out of Land Rover its just that they are miles away from ordinary Land Rover fare.
My Opinion
My Opinion
It is inevitable that Land Rover would become soft. That is the nature of business today, maximizing profits. There is no money in manufacturing a truck "able to do the hard core trails" thatt 3% of LR buyers would buy.
I guess the Jeep Rubicon is sort of hard core for stock, but then again if LR tried to make something like that, it would cost 10-20K more than the Jeep, which would alienate the very people the vehicle would be built for.
I just read an article about Eastern Mountain Sports (EMS) and how they started off as a hard core outfitting company, geared towards ice climbers and the like, before realizing there was more money in selling pink fleece pullovers to middle school kids. True, their profits went up, but before they realized it, they had sacrificed their good name at the expense of the almighty dollar. They alienated the group of consumers who were their first loyal cotumers...so, they scrapped everything and started over. Got rid of the cheaply made jackets, and went back to the basics like high quality technical clothing and gear. They only hired real outdoorsy, atheltic people to work their stores. PRofits are way down because there is not as much of a market for this, but the owner is happy that he has returned to what EMS was founded on. Its probably easier for a small company like EMS to do this, but it was refreshing to read about a company who put product and their good name ahead of the bottom line and maximum profit.
I guess the Jeep Rubicon is sort of hard core for stock, but then again if LR tried to make something like that, it would cost 10-20K more than the Jeep, which would alienate the very people the vehicle would be built for.
I just read an article about Eastern Mountain Sports (EMS) and how they started off as a hard core outfitting company, geared towards ice climbers and the like, before realizing there was more money in selling pink fleece pullovers to middle school kids. True, their profits went up, but before they realized it, they had sacrificed their good name at the expense of the almighty dollar. They alienated the group of consumers who were their first loyal cotumers...so, they scrapped everything and started over. Got rid of the cheaply made jackets, and went back to the basics like high quality technical clothing and gear. They only hired real outdoorsy, atheltic people to work their stores. PRofits are way down because there is not as much of a market for this, but the owner is happy that he has returned to what EMS was founded on. Its probably easier for a small company like EMS to do this, but it was refreshing to read about a company who put product and their good name ahead of the bottom line and maximum profit.
Jeff - you must be reading about a different EMS - because they are still selling the same ole crap made in China that they were last year. EMS used to carry really good stuff - but that has been eroded over the years and there's no sign it's going to be coming back any time soon. I keep a running tab on our local EMS in Portsmouth NH more of a fashion outlet now than a serious outdoors store
Same thing happened to North Face, Mountain Hardwear, etc etc. They are all becoming boutique brands - Basically you are now just paying for the trendy name - take a look in a New North Face Sleeping bag or for that matter a Mountain Hardwear - sub zero jacket - either made in china or taiwan.
This would be fine if they were charging "made in china" prices but they are stil charging Made in USA prices.
Going back to Land Rover - I often wonder when Neyland will wise up and start exporting the Santana to the USA. I honestly don't think we are going to be able to count on Land Rover to do anything on the Defender front. They missed the boat - kind of sad - but its been said before and it will be said again - Land Rover of today is now just another car company.
regards
Jeff
Same thing happened to North Face, Mountain Hardwear, etc etc. They are all becoming boutique brands - Basically you are now just paying for the trendy name - take a look in a New North Face Sleeping bag or for that matter a Mountain Hardwear - sub zero jacket - either made in china or taiwan.
This would be fine if they were charging "made in china" prices but they are stil charging Made in USA prices.
Going back to Land Rover - I often wonder when Neyland will wise up and start exporting the Santana to the USA. I honestly don't think we are going to be able to count on Land Rover to do anything on the Defender front. They missed the boat - kind of sad - but its been said before and it will be said again - Land Rover of today is now just another car company.
regards
Jeff
you may be right jeff. I have never even seen an EMS store or bought anything from them. just what i read
it was in entrepeneur mag this past month
it was in entrepeneur mag this past month
Last edited:
I remember when Rover started building the Defender, and I was indeed worried. They managed to keep it's off-road heritage however, and continued to build a good stock off-roader. Their military contracts ensured that. Even if you can't open a beer bottle on the dash like in a Series II
But as they move to unibody construction, and independent suspension, the ability to easily modify, and do hard core trails is lost. Independent suspension does not lend itself to rought trails. At least not without alot of electronic gimmicks to keep it up off the ground. And axles like that just aren't as strong.
I couldn't care less if people buy Rovers for the bling factor, it makes more cheap used one's available on the market, but if they cost a fortune to repair, due to all the electronics, then I won't be buying them.
But as they move to unibody construction, and independent suspension, the ability to easily modify, and do hard core trails is lost. Independent suspension does not lend itself to rought trails. At least not without alot of electronic gimmicks to keep it up off the ground. And axles like that just aren't as strong.
I couldn't care less if people buy Rovers for the bling factor, it makes more cheap used one's available on the market, but if they cost a fortune to repair, due to all the electronics, then I won't be buying them.
E
Electro Gremlin
Guest
I'll believe it when I see it, which is likely never. I've been hearing from LR dealers that a new Defender will be back "in a couple of years" ever since they discontinued it in the US in 1997. Even if they do bring back a "Defender" its likely to be a totally different (poseur) vehicle than the Defender and Series models of yore. Best bet is probably going to be to buy a 2007 Jeep Wrangler.
07 wrangler will even be available in a four door version with a longer wheelbase than the Unlimited.
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/...re/07.jeep.wrangler/jeep.wrangler.pro.500.jpg
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/...re/07.jeep.wrangler/jeep.wrangler.pro.500.jpg