Which slider?

Log Out | Topics | Search Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post   Closed: New threads not accepted on this page

Author Message   Marty Koning Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 09:09 pm:    I could use some input on rock sliders. I have been leaning towards either Rovertym's or Trek Outfitters. All comments would be welcome. Pro or con. Thanks   Michael Noe (Noee) Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 09:18 pm:    You might check the archives, search for "sliders" or something like that. I can imagine you'll find way more than you need.   Marty koning Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 09:38 pm:    I did the search and really didn't find any comments. What I did find were a bunch of pictures to look at of different setups but didn't find any pictures of Trek Outfitters product. That in inself does speak some words.   Roger Fastring Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 09:52 pm:    Does anyone mount to the frame instead of body? I'd suffer some ground clearance for not worrying about bending in my door sill.   Marty koning Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 10:01 pm:    The purpose of the sliders is to stregthen the sills to with stand punishment and protect the sills. I just want to make sure I can buy the best product available while paying a fair price.   Clif Ashley (Cta586) Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 10:07 pm:    Roger, I dont believe that anyone is currently producing a slider that attaches to the frame for a Disco. I would be happy to be wrong though!   Ron Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 10:29 pm:    Bearmach and rockware mount to the frame outriggers. Bearmach is not too bad if you beef up the mounts. I have a "plan" (and a pair of bearmach sliders ) Ron   Clif Ashley (Cta586) Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 10:39 pm:    I didn't know that, thanks.   Marc Ingham (Marcingham) Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 09:03 am:    Roversnorth sells some that mount to the frame and through the sill.   nadim Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 10:00 am:    It should either mount uniwuely to the sill or uniquely to the chassis. Not to both. I think a 3" pipe along the somewhat short span of the 2 outriggers should be enough? Anyone object?   Marc Ingham (Marcingham) Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 03:46 pm:    Nadim, just curious - what is wrong with mounting to the frame and through the sill? I would think that the additional support in either case would be welcome. it does throw a wrench in a body lift, but most seem to agree that is not the best idea anyway.   Milan Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 03:58 pm:    The body is suspended on bushings because the frame flexes. Solid mounting points would tear the body. If you mount the slider to the sill and to the frame you loose that flexible mounting point and could tear your body in the sills.   Brian Dickens (Bri) Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 04:40 pm:    I have used my Rockware now on a few trails. They work really good, but I believe that it might be nice to have them wider...meaning to have a portion of them go farther under the body. I am sure that they could do this but it will cost. I have used the high lift on them and it seems to work well too.   John Lee Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 05:08 pm:    These are some pics of my favorite Disco sliders: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/millerhv/DSC01450.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/millerhv/DSC01451.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/millerhv/DSC01452.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/millerhv/DSC01453.jpg Easily the nicest Disco sliders around. It's not even close.   Erik Olson (Jon) Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 07:07 pm:    John, Who's are those? Nice, square and stout finish. Are those RTE less the side-sills? e   John Lee Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 07:42 pm:    No, they're defnitely not RTE sliders.   Moe (Moe) Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 07:49 pm:    They are solid looking sliders. Are they AB?   Clif Ashley (Cta586) Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 08:06 pm:    I don't believe AB's have any protrusion like those do. Although, I do not have experience with the D2s.   RJ Clayton (Tozovr) Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 08:08 pm:    Yeah who's? $G? Very slick. RJ   gp (Garrett) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 08:01 am:    how are they mounted? through the sill with a backing plate? or to the frame? do tell.   Robbie (Robbie) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 09:38 am:    those aren't the desert rover's sliders that i have heard about, are they? pretty sweet whoever's.   Steve (Scrover) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 10:13 am:    John, I've heard they make those for LWB. Any pics?   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 11:37 am:    Those mystery sliders are definitely not from AB, SG, or DR. They're too nice. These are the AB sliders: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/rubicon/DSC006366.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/rubicon/DSC006416.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/rubicon/DSC008236.jpg These are the SG sliders: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/rubicon/DSC006506.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/dusy/DSC009696.jpg These are the DR sliders: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/rubicon/DSC006626.jpg And of course these are the RTE sliders: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/dusy/DSC010646.jpg Of all of the above, I think I like the AB sliders the best. Yes Steve. As a matter of fact, those mystery sliders do come in the LWB variety: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/millerhv/DSC01531.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/millerhv/DSC01564.jpg   Will Roeder (Will_Roeder) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 11:48 am:    are they made by rockware?   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 11:59 am:    No, they are not made by Rock Ware. Those sliders aren't made by any current "Rover vendor".   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 12:10 pm:    Well John , I gotta ask... What do you think makes them so "Nice" ?? cause I seen em all and the DR sliders are the best I have seen... Kyle   Will Roeder (Will_Roeder) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 12:14 pm:    does anyone know if its true that DR is out of business? someone told me they are no longer around.... if they are still in business...do they have a website or anything? i cant seem to find them   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 12:27 pm:    because, kyle, they're made by elves.. f'n magic - er, uh - elfin magic.. yeah, that's it!   Rans (Rans) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 01:21 pm:    Are they a design of your own John? or from someone at EE?   Steve (Scrover) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 01:21 pm:    I wonder what somebody would be prepared to pay for such a fine slider?   Ross Thoma (Rossthoma) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 01:22 pm:    John Nice sliders but I noticed the tires and in Canada they are sold via Canadian Tire Corp called Trailmaster and I have a set on the Ford Ranger but other that BIG O (read the lable on the tire) I don't know where to get them. Checked the site and in Chicago or Traverse City there are no franchises to shop at. Any Ideas??? Ross Thoma   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 02:10 pm:    http://www.bigo.com/?id=201   Marty koning Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 03:09 pm:    I keep looking at all the pictures of the sliders posted by John. They look very similar to the ones offered by Trekoutfitters except that they do not have the hilift jack points. Am I way off base here?   elf chatter Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:16 pm:    No definitely not Trek. These sliders were built by elves on their days off (LOL) and there are only a few sets around. Maybe if we get the elves off their little arses we can see a few more sets out there. Tell John to go feed the elves� (haaa haaa) The Elf Hearder   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:21 pm:    I remember you are Short Ron , but not that damn short... Kyle   Steve (Scrover) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:30 pm:    Kyle, Maybe you've never seen him on his knees (under my truck, that is) Proud Owner   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:30 pm:    Kyle, I think the thing that makes these the nicest (in my opinion of course) is that they fit the Disco the nicest. Frankly, I don't see too much difference between the various sliders in terms of strength/function. They're all about the same as far as I am concerned. Sure, there are slight differences such as the RTE's sandwiching of the sills, and the Trek and RTE sliders protruding outward to keep the tall rocks away from the doors, etc. Some are better finished than others. But they're all basically the same or at least extremely close in terms of function. The DR sliders you like so much are extremely heavy because they are made of 1/4" tubing. (I had the DR sliders on my Disco and I could barely lift one slider.) This heavy tubing might make the DR slider stronger in the front area under the front wings where the slider is not supported against the sills and where most Disco sliders bend inward or upward. But basically all of the Disco sliders are still stronger than the sills on the Disco. Almost always, whenever you see or hear about a Disco slider bending upward, it's because the sill gave out and not because the slider did. Other than the potentially greater strength in the front area, I don't think the DR sliders are effectively any stronger than the other Disco sliders. Rather, I think the reason you don't see the DR sliders bending at all is because they don't protrude from the outer lines of the doors and give the rocks a lever to bend the sills. All of the foregoing is not to say that the mystery sliders are not strong. I think they are as strong as any other Disco slider out there, including the DR sliders. These mystery sliders also mount to the sills both on the inside and outside of the sills, so there is the sandwiching effect on the sills and the slider effect on the bottom of the sills. The mystery sliders also protrude from the lower doors a bit more than the SG or DR sliders, but not as much as the Trek or RTE sliders. I think the amount of protrusion is a nice compromise between keeping rocks away from the body and preventing the levering of the sliders into the doors. Overall, they are a very thoughtful design and also very beautiful. That's why I think they are the "nicest" Disco sliders around.   adtoolco Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:37 pm:    Well I just put a nice ding in my sill/door. If these elves happen to make a set for a D2 I would be willing to bribe them. -Chris   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:42 pm:    Well , I hate to rain on everyones parade but sandwiching the sill makes them weaker and more prone to moving around (They are never truley tight). That coupled with sticking out at all makes them (By design) weaker then the DR slider. I do like that they are rolled but rolled on the wrong side of the tubing. Standing that tubing up makes them harder to roll but makes them stronger in two different ways at once... I feel that more and more Discoveries are getting into the shit and they are doing it with more and more weight. The whole slider thing is far from over and far from being solved. You have to go back to what the damn thing is for. Its simply to replace what was there with something else that wont bend. What was there in the first place didnt stick out nor was it a step or platform , blah blah blah.. The DR slider is nice and low profile like what was there in the first place and directly addresses the issue it was mounted for , very simple. The wider the slider is the more its gonna put on that hollow sill... Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:43 pm:    so who makes em you assholes?   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:46 pm:    You heard him Blue , its "Little people" you are Irish , you should know em.... Kyle   Marty koning Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:49 pm:    Kyle; Are we ever going to find out the manufacurer of the mystery slider? I feel like we are all being teased. Why are they no longer available? Also how important is it to have the slider sandwiched on the hollow sill?   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:55 pm:    Well , it became popular to think that by putting a channel around the sill and having the bolts pass through the sill with nuts on the other side. I am not exactly sure how that became mainstream. A guy here was the first to do it and it wasnt a vendor. It was just some guy building a set at home on the week end. This method does protect the sill from being hit but it actually makes the sliders stability on the truck worse. Its never really tight. You see this same phenominon on the bumpers. Land Rover put tubes up in the frame to keep it from crushing but you can wrench it on down and crush them and never really get the damn thing "Tight". Then the bumpers rotate all over the damn place... Frame mounted sliders are the only thing that will solve this issue. Mine are frame mounted but the mounting kinda sucks. They had a decent idea but fell short. Kinda like they ran outta money or some shit. Kyle   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:11 pm:    I have to disagree on the benefits of sandwiching. While I don't think the sandwiching is the end-all answer (because the sills are still weaker than the sliders), I think the sandwiching is worthwhile. If you look at the DR sliders, they are just an L-shaped assembly of thick sheet metal, and they mount to the sills with long bolts that bolt through the sills. There is no sandwiching action with the DR sliders. Just washers and the nuts. It's considerably easier to overtighten the mounting bolts or pull the slider loose when there is no sandwiching action there. It's still quite possible to overtighten the mounting bolts with the sandwiching action there, but I think it's a worthwhile improvement over having no sandwich there at all. Again, there is no claim that these mystery sliders are the ultimate or whatnot or the discovery of fire or the Missing Link or the splitting of the atom. They are just the nicest of the currently available rock sliders (which isn't really saying that much). Marty, these sliders are just like the Trek sliders. Go with Trek. p.s. While we are on the subject of sandwiching, has anybody had the "Fairfax" sandwich from Canter's Deli on Fairfax Avenue? This is two pieces of crispy rye bread and between the bread are multiple layers of corned beef and pastrami. The Fairfax is basically in the shape of a cube with bread on top and bottom and pastrami and corned beef in the middle. If you are ever in Los Angeles, try the Fairfax.   94Rover Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:20 pm:    I just want to know what brand of tires are on the White Range Rover County in front of the mystery Elf sliders? Can I get a brand name and tire size for the tyres on the White Range Rover please..... I need tryes soooo bad, and with all the choices made available and my knowledge of tires, damn it's f'ing hard to make a tire choice these days, without buying a set of 5 only to wear them out in hopes of buying a better set. O please someone tell me the brand/type/size of the tires in the mystery slider pic that are fitted on the White Range Rover......   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:21 pm:    Well , the sandwiching will certainly make you feel better about it as you have already displayed. What happens when you feel good about something that is weak by design John ? You are also wrong in your comparison to the DR slider. When you tighten a sandwiched slider (More accurately a channel) you are tightening the slider more on itself then you are on the sill. Not that it matters a whole lot but the system is not as stable... A combo of the DR slider and the Ab slider would probably fit the bill. Going from what I see so far these sliders are really no different then the RTE sliders (Other then being rolled) and more apt to move then the AB. Therefore knocking them out of the "Nicest slider on the market" slot.. Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:22 pm:    all this talk is making me hungry for a salami spacer sandwich... P.S. shuddup Kyle   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:24 pm:    What damn pic 94 ? Are you talking about the BFG MT's ? Its just a tire man . Go buy some and be happy.... Kyle   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:25 pm:    Dont get me started on "Salami spacer",,,,lol , would you like your slami sliced by a knife or a machine ? Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:26 pm:    mystery tires look like good old BFG MT's...   Steve (Scrover) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:27 pm:    94Rover, The tires on the white (94 rover) county are BFG M/T in a 245/75-16 Steve   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:27 pm:    I prefer my salami intact, thank you...   Marty koning Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:29 pm:    John; I assume that the trek sliders also sandwich the sill as you talked about. The pics on their web site are not the best to really be able to see the exact design. I did see a pic of the RTE's and you can get an idea as to the mounting and design. Has anyone gone as far as actually welding a slider assemble on or a flat plate on the back of the sill before installing a slider. I understand the down side of welding a complete slider on in the event of one bending you will have a major mess to repair but a flat plate welded on first should help stregthen the sill box and not interefer with the slider having to be removed. Just ideas.   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:32 pm:    Why Marty ? You are welding to virtually nothing. The sill is a glorified Coke can.... Kyle   Steve (Scrover) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:37 pm:    Isn't the sill aluminum?   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:39 pm:    Nope Kyle   Steve (Scrover) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:43 pm:    That Elf, he deceived me...   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:48 pm:    You gotta watch those short people... Kyle   Marty koning Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:49 pm:    OK I have been trying to keep a score card here on the different input so far. The sliders in discussion are; RTE, AB, Trek, and DR. Did I miss any? The price range is from 425 to 625. Not a significant spread. RTE and Trek are designed to sandwich the sill. I know AB doesn't and am not familar with DR's. I can see both sides of the coin on the sandwiching. So can you say I am still confused????   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:57 pm:    Go with Trek.   Mark Albrecht Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:59 pm:    Has anyone considered sliders similar to those produced by Currie Enterprises (http://128.121.255.231/purchase/product.asp?uid=56647622&item=314) for Jeeps which bolt to the frame at the body bushing and to the sill? Although a pain to install, they have additional strength and use the body mount to prevent vibration, etc.   more elf chatter Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 07:00 pm:    HHHHAAAAAAAAAAAA Kyle if we put a KVT sticker on the sliders will they be alright then. (LOL) The box sill on a rover is incredibly strong that�s the beauty of boxing it in (�course you know that). And the �mystery� sliders are very snug, you have to jack them from the bottom and use the full weight of the vehicle to push them over the sill. No its not a perfect answer but it works very well. Or it could just be that f�kn elf magic� (LOL) Ron A   Steve (Scrover) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 07:47 pm:    Elf, Don't sell yourself short (sorry), like anything, it IS a perfect answer until it breaks. Steve   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 07:59 pm:    Ron ??? Incredibly strong ? LOL , ok you boys must be experiencing some Icy conditions over there cause now you have slipped and hit your head. That portion of the rover is somewhat like the frame in a unibody car. ACCEPT , that its thinner and weaker.. Its a coke can. Shape a coke can into a box and its still as strong as a coke can...And again , turn that damn box up the right way. You cali boys trying to get those things to fly or what ? I dont have any stickers but I got some Elf Spray ... Kyle   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 08:11 pm:    ron - it's ELF'n magic, not FK'n magic.. please get it right. and I'll be forwarding the trademark papers shortly. now, about all this DR stuff, for those that don't realize it and are actually trying to use this thread for usefull information, the DR slider is not being manufactured/sold right now. So other than design-point comparisons, it's not really on-the-table as a viable "purchase" option (just in case anyone was keeping score, as I think someone mentioned earlier in this thread). John is right in that the "original" DR slider is an L-shape that hangs from through-the-sill bolts, but I have mine backed with a full plate that matches/aligns with the bottom plate of the slider along the entire length of the slider (where possible, sans body-mount points). this helps to distribute the upward shock across the entire slider, and spread the load across all the mounting bolts somewhat. the elf'n sliders (man - that was too easy.. marketing, I tell ya... marketing) are pre-welded to completely box in the sill, as described, and I can vouch for the tight fit. They grip the sill like a swamper bead grips a wheel. This will also spread the upward impact across all the mounting bolts, as well as along the entire sill structure due to the tight fit and constant sill contact. I think the extremely heavy build of these sliders, like the old DR sliders, will help to deal with the unsupported lead area up front under impact. Whether the addl outcropping is too much or just enough - well, time will tell. we have certainly seen scenarios where other outwardly-extended sliders made a hard problem worse, and wanted to twist on the sill, which we all can agree is a bad thing. from what I have seen of them, the bend is nice. the finish looks excellent. and the strength is elfin heavy. all-in-all, I think I would cast my vote for the elfin sliders. /mike   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 08:31 pm:    So jack the slider up on the coke can and tighten him down , then whack it a few times and it starts moving cause it really aint tight.Then the bolts start to wallow in the holes. After awhile its just a flopping in the breeze. Hmmmm , maybe thats why they stick out like airplane wings..... Kyle   94Rover Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 08:51 pm:    Thanks for the tire info.. I was wishing it was some other mystery Elf'n brand, like Cooper Avalon, or Cooper Discovery etc. Thanks for the remarks. Now it's back to the idiot-tube to listen to more "Expert Commentary" about the next moves and plans of the "area" sniper. Later-   Alan Yim (Alan) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 08:52 pm:    Ducktape some railway ties on! That'll work! A   Marty koning Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 09:04 pm:    Are Elf'n sliders on the table for a viable option for one to obtain or are they a ono off that is unavailable. I need to come to a decision soon so I can get these things on before going to the Pipeline next month. marty   Marty koning Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 09:10 pm:    Also on another note the wing style sliders due help prevent door dings if one is worried about such parking lot 500 type of crashes. marty   Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 09:12 pm:    You f'n elves always talk in riddles...I'm just gonna make a set of my own. -Chris   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 09:48 pm:    Just wondering but, why is it that no one has made a slider that attaches to the frame and then the frame ears for the body mounts that are right by the sill? Wouldn't that be the best place for them to mount? Like making a frame/sill slider all in one type deal..   Erik Olson (Jon) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 10:58 pm:    John and Ho, I'll take a set if you guys can really make the ELF Sliders for $450 a set - email me offline? e   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 11:54 pm:    ok- well, first of all, that's not exactly what i said, heheheh - the coke can can handle the impact stress "better" if the upward impact stress is spread across the surface area as much as possible. thus the comment about the box being a not-so-bad idea (as was my idea to replace the spotty backing of the DR sliders with full plates that mate with the lower slider surface) - ANYWAY as for the mounting/slop/floppin' in the breeze thing - just break out the common-sense manual and read the first page: mount the sliders flush to the sills, drill and mount the hardware, tighten, locktight, and drive. unless the sliders are somehow twisted after mounting, or the hardware mounting holes are overdrilled, i can't really see how an upward strike will cause the sliders to start moving. They are either mounted flush or they are not. i do think points about twisting et al are valid. so i'm with ya there. i mean, i really can't understand the design factor with sliders incorporating these extreme outcroppings - i mean, as i've said before: i want my sliders to protect my sills, NOT my door handles. the extended surface area offers an angle that can work against the coke_can factor... i've seen it, you've seen it... it's a bad thing. that's why I like the low-pro of my old DR sliders. i'll be working on getting these properly attached to the frame for a couple of reasons. rolling on the sill is one reason, although a lessor concern. well, anyway - i think most would agree a frame mounted solution would solve most of our dilemmae. right now, i personally don't care for the attachment method of the ab version - and haven't really seen others. i think the elf'n sliders will server their purpose well enough. hell, everything's a work in progress, really. /mp   Ron A Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 12:47 am:    Wow this is pretty cool, I haven�t seen a good theoretical discussion in quite a while. Now, as a prof used to say �go out into the real world and see if it works�. What we really learned was that our theories were full of shit and that you don�t know anything until its tested, proven and tested again. Now I would agree that if your want to win the rock crawling championship you shouldn�t have sliders mounted to the aluminum.. er I mean steel LR sill. Actually I wouldn�t suggest using a full bodied LR to try and win a championship (although that would be cool). But even in my delusions of grandeur I doubt I�ll get to that level. (LOL) What we�re talking about is LR�s running some of the best and most difficult trails in N.A. and trying to make equipment that will stand up to that punishment. Coke cans and sills. Actually a coke can would be stronger in most instances using the same material, area and loads. God likes round and an equally distributed load on a round section (hoop) is very strong. One of the next best shapes is square. A sill is kinda square. Sandwiching a box section won�t increase the strength of the box section, but anything attach to the sandwich (channel) will distribute the load along the sill. This is a little over simplified but you should get the idea that �if it works it works� and all theory goes out the window. Stay tuned for part II Ron A   Ron A Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 01:28 am:    Sorry laptop ran out of juice� so where was I.. oh yea. Frame mounted sliders � better � yes, overkill � definitely. A properly designed sill mounted slider will not rotate even under heavy offroading conditions. How do I know, well because I�ve been using them for the last year and a half and they have not moved an inch. Called empirical testing. And Kyle you know that going across Dusy in 6 days you�ll hit a lot of rocks, try doing it in 3 days you�ll hit them a lot harder (haaaa haaaaa). Kyle you know I love to give you a jab whenever I can but the one exception I would take is that someone came up with this design in their garage. If this reference was to me you�re dead ass wrong. Two profession engineers decided on this idea and eventually consulted a third engineer. Of the three, two own their own consulting and fabrication shops and this is where most of the elf�n sliders were made. This wasn�t done in someones backyard. We actually gave it some drunken thought� (HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAA) Ron A (fk�n elf)   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:28 am:    No Ron , it wasnt you. It was a guy here some time ago. I think its in the tech section. You are also comparing your light ass lifted to the moon rangie to heavily laden much lower Discoveries... Now what about hitting those rocks ? And please dont mention "Engineers" my faith level gos way way down when you do that .... Now for Elf Peters. Mike , um , how do I say this ?? The slider and its attachemnt "System" does not push up on that box as much as it levers off of it. The sides of the coke can take the abuse as well as the holes the bolts are run through. The futher something protrudes outboard of the "big bad box" the less likely it is to survive. Ron/Mike , you arent walking on new ground and what I am saying is already heppening to other makes of sliders on the market that are pretty much identical to what we have here. I said it yesterday , gimmie a set of the sliders , a rock and a couple of seconds and I will give ya back a bent up set of sliders... Now this engineer thing is quite disturbing. If they all agreed that sandwiching a sheet metal (Yeah , thats what it is Ron) channel with a thicker , much stronger steel channel section with bolts passing through was the ticket , well then , I gotta wonder what they are good for. There is nothing inside that hollow ass sheet metal box for the slider to tighten on (Yeah , I have thought of filling the box with block grout). You can tighten the bolts till the cows come home and all you will do is mash your nice slider and your coke can. But you dont wanna do that so you get the bolts moderately tight and leave it at that. Over time you get the jiggling going and well , we been down that road in a previous post.... As far as saying "Time will tell" , well , I hate to break it to you guys (And the engineers) , BUT , it already has told.... Kyle   Ron A Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 09:49 am:    Well I agree with you that time will tell and that nobody can screw something up faster than an engineer.. (LOL) Yes if you put a bolt through the sill and overtighten it, it will compress at the point where the load is applied, but if you sandwich 2 plates with several bolts equally spaced along the sill you can now lever anywhere along the sill and it will use the full integrity of the sill to carry the load. And you'd be surprised at how strong the sill really is. Or maybe you wouldn�t� (grin) John is right the Treks are better go buy them. But you gotta admit those elf�n sliders are awful damn purty aren�t they. (haaa haaa) Ron A   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 11:08 am:    erik, you can have my RTE sliders for 450.00   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 11:13 am:    Someone please buy Ho's sliders. And someone please buy those damn spacers and 255/85's too. Please.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 11:57 am:    Ho, I'll trade you your 255's & RTE sliders for a private tour of that California winery....   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 11:57 am:    john, you pimpin for ho? rd   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 12:20 pm:    No, just trying to civilize Ho a bit. When Ho and I formed EE, he had all kinds of uncivilized stuff on his truck. But he's slowly coming around.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 12:28 pm:    john, blue, you now suddenly know where that winery is?   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 12:58 pm:    Man, don't even give me the hand. You're getting civilized whether you admit it or not. Among the other numerous savage and barbarous mods, there were the multiple sets of Dunlop tires, the Sway-A-Way coilovers, the Airforce One turbo air intake, the RTE spring spacers, the RTE rock sliders, the RTE caster-corrected radius arms, the Rover Accessories 1.5" wheel spacers (for that special ghetto look around town), the IPF lights, the Blue Monster pimp springs, and, of course, that Tilt-O-Meter you used to have in the white Disco (the one that measures both side tilt and front/back tilt). And what have you got now? Some nice Michelin XZL's. Some DBA brakes. Paragon Performance brake hoses. The S9000 and XD9000 are now gone and you're stylin with the Husky 10. You got the silver winch rope action too. The IPF 900's are gone and now you got the Hella 4000 action. The RTE spacers are gone and now you got the OME 3" lift. Man, don't even tell me you haven't been civilized. Pretty soon you'll be watching Jeopardy instead of Wheel of Fortune.   KJ Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 01:05 pm:    Hey, the man can cook, and that's all I've ever wanted from him. Karen   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 01:26 pm:      Al Cruz (Alc) Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 01:29 pm:    John, Sounds like Ho had an identity crisis. Alc   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 01:51 pm:    Quote: Pretty soon you'll be watching Jeopardy instead of Wheel of Fortune. John, I'm comforted to know that someone besides me realizes this important class distinction.   Steve (Scrover) Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 01:54 pm:    John, is this what you're referring to?   Steve (Scrover) Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 01:57 pm:    Is that a 'Special Vehicles' sticker on the side?   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 02:13 pm:    that has got to be the most photographed ditch this side of the Mississip   Marty koning Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 04:47 pm:    I guess elf'n magic doesn't happen east of the mighty Miss so the votes seem to be leaning towards the Trek's. I wish I had more time and maybe with a few keebler cookies and playing Frank Zappa at 78 speed in reverse I to maybe able to have a vision and build my own but time is running out. I still am comfused as to this elf'n magic slider and it's birthplace. Maybe the name shoukd just be "THE SLIDER" marty   Ron L Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 08:01 pm:    Well Folks, I did have a chance to test the sliders. I got 10 times my money worth. http://www.expeditionexchange.com/millerhv/DSC01474.jpg What you dont see is the shot after this one. Because John had to come around and spot me. I got both front wheels off the ground and landed flat down on the drivers side slider. there was a loud bang followed by a "what the @#$% was that" I thought it was the muffler (Big Dent) but after washing the rig down I found the point of impact. Here is a picture of what I landed on, its the one on the left. http://www.expeditionexchange.com/millerhv/DSC01470.jpg Lets just say the new gun on the elfs welder coupled with an awesome weld saved both doors. Better? Worse? Dunno its my first set. Do they function? They did for me. Peace All Ron L   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 08:26 pm:    Oh my goodness. That IS a "Land Rover Special Vehicles" decal on there. LOL. Is there no end to the ghetto pimp action?   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 08:47 pm:    that's almost as bad as a wannabee euro oval tf   Marty koning Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 08:48 pm:    After laying under the D1 and staring at the box sill I must conquer that if it is sandwiched between steel it must improve it's strength. The weakness is the use of only through bolts to keep it secure. Does anyone know if Trek just mounts with through bolts? marty   Eric Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 08:59 pm:    Fortunatly the sills don't put up much fight, which is the heart of the issue.   Marty koning Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 09:04 pm:    To sandwich or not to sandwich? that is the question As long as the sill wins against the rock I don't care..... marty   Ron Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 09:37 pm:    Buy the bearcraps, ah I mean bearmachs. $185 that way when they bend you will be like, well it was only $185 rather than I spent $600 fucking dollars on these POSes and now I can't open my doors. All and all I think that are pretty good, and they are galvanized so they won't rust. Ron   Ron A Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 10:02 pm:    Marty the sill on a LR was not intended as a load carrying member of the trucks body. It does give the floor pan most of its rigidity (this is just an observation looking at the design of the floor). A channel around the sill by itself will protect the sill from point loading but doesn�t really give the sill any additional strength. Kyles point is that if you clamp on to the sill with a lever and apply a load (moment) the sill will collapse at the point that it is loaded. He�s right, if you bolted a bar perpendicular to the sill and lifted up on it, it wouldn�t take much to bend the sill. (gawd this stuffs boring). So to help solve the problem you distribute the load over as much area as you possibly can (the sandwich) and you make the moment lever as short as possible. Elf�n sliders are just over 3� away from the sill, this is pretty close. I�ve never done an analysis and I doubt I ever will (no I guarantee it, haa) but you can get a good idea of whats happening by lifting on the truck as close to the outer edge of the sill as possible and check the deflection under load. I�ve done this several times on the original elf�n magics (love that name mikey) with only 3 bolts in it and there was very little deflection (about a 1/16th). This is only gives you an idea of what is really happening with the sill but it�s good enough for me. As to how & where they get made we�ll have to ask the elves� (LOL) Ron A   Ron A Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 12:56 pm:    Excuse me I meant to say lift at the outer edge of the slider not the sill. Silly elves... Ron A   Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 01:16 pm:    You know, for a bunch of guys bashing engineers, you sure do a lot of engineering. Paul (the engineer)   Ron L Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 02:08 pm:    Marty....Do the right thing, wait for the elf'n sliders Ron L   Doug Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 05:00 pm:    I want elf'n sliders for my 110! Please tell the elves.   Marty koning Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 06:10 pm:    Dear Elves I understand that xmas is coming quickly and you are working overtime trying to clear the backlog on the orders I have given you for all the toys that I will need for distribution this year, but I want to to drop what you are doing and get some sliders made quickly so a few big kids will not be disappointed finding nothing under the xmas tree this year. Happy Holidays Santa P.S. How soon can you have these completed   Barry Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 11:25 pm:    Marty, If you plan to encounter rocks while rovering, you will be happy with the Trek sliders. Mine took a pounding this past weekend. The sill did not crush, nor did the bolts through the backer plate loosen. Unfortunately, a front outrigger did get crushed into a radius arm. -Barry   Ron A Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 12:08 pm:    Marty, you can contact John Lee at EE for more information and availability. Doug, the 110 is a whole different bird but if you're the 110 in So. Cal. then send me an email and we'll see what we can do. Paul, all the elves are engineers, its one of their shortcomings (hhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa). Ron A   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 01:45 pm:    OK, I will throw in my 2 cents. I dig my sliders for my DI. They have taken a few strong hits and have come out a-OK and are sill mounted. They are really clean, and were made with space in mind so I needed no slider trimming with 33's. I wanted something that stuck out some for protection, but not too much. I think these fit the bill. Also is a link that has some DII sliders on it that my friend uses. They are 100% frame mounted, which is easier with the DII because the frame drops below the body line. Here's some pics. Scroll down to see... http://tompearson.net/bumperslider/disco2_stuff.htm http://tompearson.net/bumperslider/bumper_pics.htm   Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 02:25 pm:    Ah, now we know. All along, I thought EE meant Electrical Engineer, then I learned it meant Environmental Engineer, now I learn it really means Elfin Engineer. I know John won't comment, he's still laughing at me for carrying a Rossi. Hey, I just realized that John and Perrone have something in common, they both tease me about my Rossi .38! Damned elves! It's bad enough my wife can weld better than I can, now elves can too. Peace, Paul   Andrew Clarke (Aclarke) Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 07:02 pm:    Tom, are you trying to create some sort of car-wars superweapon with those pointy frame-mounted bumpers of yours? I should do something like that for the number of times I seem to get rear-ended...   John Lee Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 07:44 pm:    Oh damn. Ginsu is now making bumpers?   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 10:16 pm:    Hey! Leave the choppers alone! They aren't as sharp as the look in the pics, at least not until I head out the west coast for some choppin' of certain individuals. That's when the mad max shit comes out. Ever seen Hellraiser? Just wait until you see what these bumpers can do. As for sliders, I think the keeblers were looking at these pics a while back before they made thier own cookies. Tom   Andrew Clarke (Aclarke) Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 12:35 am:    maybe you could weld some rebar onto it, sticking out behind you. I got rear-ended by a guy in a camaro once when I had my lifted cherokee. My trailer hitch did some horrendous damage...wow. Obviously you couldn't even tell that I'd been hit. I felt kinda bad for the guy. Kinda. I got rear ended 3 times in like 8 months. And I was driving a non-ABS SUV, so all those people tailgating me had no excuse...   Greg Hirst (Gregh) Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 01:45 am:    ...except maybe your brake lights didn't work? (hehe)   Andrew Clarke (Aclarke) Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 02:02 am:    haha. Good point. They DID work, and I WAS using them.   michael burt (Mikeyb) Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 02:20 am:    hey andrew, maybe you should buy eye exams for every one that follows you!?!?! ;) or HID tail lights?   John Lee Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 10:55 am:    Sorry Tom, but the Keebler sliders were made back in 1997 or 1998. Only now do the Keeblers want to start production.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 11:13 am:    hell raiser? mad max? LOL cmon on over! show me some chop chop action please.   Kyle Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 11:16 am:    Tom , you know damn good and well that Disco doesnt leave the state...... Kyle   John Lee Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 11:19 am:    No, Ho. I think Tom meant to say that I'm the one who is going to be turned into chop suey by him and his Ginsu bumpers. They slice, they dice, they peel, they even cut humans. And if you order in the next 20 minutes, you get a skid plate for free.   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 11:20 am:    Kyle, what are you talking about? Come on, you know I live in Illinois and wheel in Indiana. Trust me, driving any where near Gary is an expedition of dangerous proportions. That is why the mad max gear is so necessary. Tom   Kyle Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 11:22 am:    Hmmm , so we got a tri state Disco or something like that ? Seems that alot of these trucks have some sort of an electronic leash... Kyle   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 11:24 am:    Lee, Ho, Kyle, downtown Gary gangbangers, anyone is fair game. Just some are more points than others. Tom   Kyle Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 11:26 am:    Been through Gary recently.. Didnt seem all that bad to me. I guess its all relative.. Kyle   Marty koning Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 01:31 pm:    I think we should include the best bumpers to keep this thread going. The pictures have been interesting. I think that should bring a few more interesting home brewed creations to light because the slider issues have been thoughly scrutinized and boiled down to the two schools of thought. We just need to see some more pictures of the elf'n magics. Until then I am avoiding the rocks. marty   Marty koning Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 12:20 pm:    I just wanted to thank all for their input. I thought this was going to be simple but all the points that have been brought up have been excellent. We never even touched the subject of the finishes on the different sliders available. A deffinate concern if you want them to last. Again thanks to all Marty Koning   Brian Dickens (Bri) Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 01:41 pm:    I reviewed most of this thread. The rockware are made of 1/4 tube as well and they do not mount to the sill which it appears that most others do.