| Author |
Message |
    
Kai Dussling (Kai)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 09:19 am: | 
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Ok guys, I have had my warn 9000i for a couple of months and just had my first true opportunity to use my winch.
I attempted to pull an axle deep stuck Dodge pickup out of the mud. My wheels were blocked and I was on solid ground. Hooked up and started winching. When I got the cable tight and started puilling, Nothing! The truck didn't budge. Was it too stuck? It was at night and my lights started dimming as pressure was applied. Motor was running. There was some fear involved since I wasnt 100% satisfied with the connection to the Dodge.
1. My question is should I have kept pulling? I didn't want to have something break and damage my vehicle. Also, I was not associated with the idoits I was attempting to free.
2. Was there another tactic I could have used? Is straight pulling(tow rope) better for this?
3. Is that UNSTUCK video any good? or does it just cover the basics? I need to learn how to use this valuble tool!
Thanks,
KD |
Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 10:00 am: |
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How far did you have the cable out? The more layers of cable left on the winch drum decreases the pulling force. Another option is to use a snatch block (pulley) to give you some added pulling power.
I would not attempt to winch some one out unless your truck is anchored. If you dont, you'll most likely pull yourself towards the stuck vehicle. I usually use strap my truck to a tree, remove the slack in the strap and then start winching.
With an electric winch, if it stalls, make sure to turn it off quickly or you'll see a nice puff of smoke with the nice burnt out electric motor smell. |
Bill Bettridge (Billb)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 10:30 am: |
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Along with what Mike noted - it's always a good idea with any electric winch to keep the rev's up while winching - 1500-2000 rpm seems to work well. This lets the alternator power the winch instead of drawing from the battery.
Also - depends on the type of "stuck" the Dodge was in - where the front wheels or diff wedged against an obstacle? If so - then all the straight pulling in the world won't help (and may hurt). Sometimes it can be necessary to free up the vehicle first by digging, lifting, etc before winching - or alternately pulling from another direction first (backwards, sideways) if possible first.
LR used to print a book on correct winching techniques also that you could get at the dealer - not sure if they still do or not though,
Bill |
Moe (Moe)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 11:29 am: |
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Kai, if you have any doubt you should stop, release tension from the cable and find out why there is no movement. Possibly the dodge needed more . . . maybe a highlift (and shovels) to lift it up and out of the mud.
Avoid the strap whenever possible. Last time I was on the business end of the silly strap, serious carnage occured. |
Michael Villanueva (Michael)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 11:40 am: |
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I think the Unstuck video is very, very good for orienteering you to the basics of recovery. Basic equipments components are defined, reviewed, used with basic scenarios enacted. You get a chance to see the physics of some recovery situations. And there are some good safety tips, suggestions, and flat out warnings.
From your description of the scenario as well as your actions, I do not think the video would have helped you though. |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 12:05 pm: |
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i always pull out the tow rope first. get the guy in the dodge to apply some reasonable gas pedal when he starts to feel me put pressure on.
sometimes "giving it hell" in this situation will free it.
if thats not working , i try it again with the winch + dodge giving it gas. i dont want any jerking action now, it has to be a smooth amount of power on his part.
the stalling thing is no surprise. that why you see alot of guys here using the 12,000 lb winch.
i would think using the snatch block to great a 2 : 1 mechanical advantage would be a good start with such a small winch. and as the other caller said you get more calbe out and you get another mech adv on the drum.
you sometimes have to look at how the truck is stuck versus where you are pulling from, for instance, if the right tire is stuck behind a ledge then and the truck is leaning to that side. i would attach the cable to high end (left) so that it would pull down on the high end and help the opp wheel to go over the obsticle.
rd |
nadim
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 12:46 pm: |
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"i would think using the snatch block to great a 2 : 1 mechanical advantage would be a good start with such a small winch"
A 9000i is a small winch? I think its not the LBs strength, I think its all back to whcih Winch designs has the ooomph...Kyle...Worm and Gear?
Also, I thing the fact that the cable was not fully pulled out seems the be the situation. |
Kai Dussling (Kai)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 01:27 pm: |
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Update to responses:
Both differentials on the Dodge were on the ground and the wheels were sunk into there own holes (high centered for the most part).
My Discovery was anchored. I was parked in the street with front wheels against the curb. Winch cable was probably at 40'-50'.
I think by some of the responses, a high-lift to the Dodges' bumper would have been the first place to start.
KD |
LR Max
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 04:11 pm: |
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First off, I would strongly reccomend the Bill Burke "Unstuck" Video to anyone who is beginning to go out and do some serious wheeling (not extreme, but to the point of getting stuck). I think it is worth the twenty bucks or however much it costs.
In this situation, I do think that a snatch block would have helped a lot. I think that you probably should have gotten a couple blocks of wood, hi-lifted the truck up, placed the blocks under the tires (take care when doing this) and then winch it out. The Dodge should probably be in neutral, since spinning the tires will dig it in deeper.
I do believe that the video does cover a scenario like you just described.
Max T. |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 04:34 pm: |
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nadim, yes, the 9000i is a small winch, it does not pull as advertised. you get a 12000 ramsey with 50ft ouyt i bet it would have pulled the truck out.
kai, was the redneck in the dodge helping with some gas pedal?
rd |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 05:20 pm: |
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Yeah, the video offers some good basic information as does the sheet Warn provides with the winch. Bill does have a sequence of un-stucking his totally buried RR that sounds similair to your situation. LR also had some good info on their site at one time that might be archived somewhere.
One key is what Rob and others have said - each situation is somewhat different. Figure out why it is stuck and go from there. Raising it out of the mud certainly reduces that sucking force as does spinning the tires some. If you're trying to winch it over an obstruction, something has to give. The obstruction or it eventually rolls with enough force.
Just make sure that cable has something on it to dissipate the force if it should snap.
Jaime |
Kai Dussling (Kai)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 05:35 pm: |
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Rob,
Funny as it was, yes there was sufficient help from the gas pedal in the Dodge. I think that guy (as I found out later) was too drunk to get out and help with the extracation process so in the meantime he was designated as gas pedal pusher.
Actually as the whole story goes, my wife almost called the cops on these guys. All of this happened about about 50 yards from our bedroom window about 2a.m. Saturday night. My wife said " either you go out there and help these guys out (so we can sleep) or I am calling the cops". Yes, my wife actually giving me permission to play with my new winch in the mud.
They finally got it out about 4:30a.m. This was after, what sounded like numerous snatch pulls from an assortment of vehicles(one of which had a glass pack muffler; yes, I am located in Texas) and at least one broken tow rope. The oldest one in the group probably wasn't over 20.
KD |
Ross Thoma (Rossthoma)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 06:09 pm: |
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HUH,HUH your wife if cool! HUH, HUH |
Moe (Moe)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 07:43 pm: |
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On second thought, I think calls to the cops and the local tow truck driver would have been the correct winching technique in this case. |
Clif Ashley (Cta586)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 08:02 pm: |
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Kai-
Was it just an empty lot next to your house or something of the like?
How or did you ever get it out? |
muskyman
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 09:05 pm: |
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the drunk pedal pusher 50ft from my bedroom windows gets a 911 call every time.
that said
each stuck is different, but they also fall into groups of very similar situations.
this sounds like a greasy mud to the axles and not enough tire. in the midwest this is by far the most common stuck of all.
the easy cure is 50ft of snatch strap and a nice tug that stretches and loads the strap then softly pops the truck free.
if the tires are to the middle dropping the tire pressure way down will decrease the roll over angle and help it back up on top.
the procedure that has worked well for years for me and the group I wheel with is the stuck truck starts the wheels turning then beeps his horn to signal the tug truck to give it a snap.by starting the tires and drivtrain moving you will damage less drivline components on both vehicles.
if the area seams too tight to perform a snap then the winch is your option.
my first advise on a winch is to cut the length of cable on your winch down to about 60 feet. that way you get down to where the winch has power(1st&2nd wrap) with much less cable out. also it makes wrapping it on much less important because there is more room on the spool.Then take that length of cable and put a hook on one side and a loop on the other end,it will roll up easy and be ready to stretch yours or a friends cable in seconds. we carry about 200ft of extra cable between us and with that and a few blocks you can recover almost any truck from almost any situation. I have recovered people from all sorts of crazy places over the years and having extra cable lets you put your truck in the best place to get other trucks outa the worst of them. |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 08:02 am: |
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muskyman,
that is a great idea on cutting the cable length down and using the other piece as an extender. thanks for sharing the idea.
Jaime |
Kai Dussling (Kai)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 08:21 am: |
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Clif,
It was a field behind my house with some new construction on it. They just put in all the drain pipe and with the recent rains it was real muddy.
Yes, I actually thought about calling the cops. These idiots did wake me from my sleep. But.... in my case, if your wife is telling you to go play, you definately take advantage!
Thanks everyone for your good ideas!
KD |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 10:05 am: |
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i think cutting the cable is a "refriggingdiculous" idea...
as far as i am concerened your logic is as reasonable as me saying
"i suggest you wipe your ass with your finger then wash it off, that way you don't have to fuck with all that pesky paper."
i give up.
rd |
John Kruger (Johnnyk)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 10:43 am: |
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I suggest you get the video, and then go get your truck stuck and practice some of the techniques.
I have seen very experienced wheelers practice very unsafe recovery techniques. This may sounds like a stupid cliché, but "Safety First"!
Were you pulling the truck backwards or forwards? |
muskyman
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 01:12 pm: |
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i think cutting the cable is a "refriggingdiculous" idea...
"as far as i am concerened your logic is as reasonable as me saying
"i suggest you wipe your ass with your finger then wash it off, that way you don't have to fuck with all that pesky paper."
i give up.
rd"
well rob I have watched guys explode winch frames by stacking all the cable on one side till it cracks the winch body. I have watched guys dick around with there cable for 15min just to get all 100' back on the spool. and I have seen countless guys with 40' of cable out stall the winch and smoke there precious selonoids because they where on the 4th or 5th wrap. I also have seen guys that after years of winching never get more then 60' of cable out.
all of these things go away if you only have about 60' of cable on there to begin with. the only thing you lose is the continuous 120' pull.
and trust me that really is nothing to worry about losing. in 25 years of recoveries I cant even think of it ever being a factor.
but with 60" I can unspool make a pull and respool in 5min or so. without any of the aformentioned hassels.
plus the extra lengths of cable can also link your rearend to something that you may not be able to back up to to winch off of.
so I may sound "refriggingdiculous" but there is lots of winching expierience in my "refriggingdiculousness" |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 01:54 pm: |
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You also answered one of my questions that came to mind in that is 60' enough to begin with and it sounds like that is not a problem.
What about a double-line pull situation though??
Jaime |
muskyman
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 02:10 pm: |
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with only 60 feet you are limited to about a 25' double line pull. but because you are down on a lower wrap you will need to double line pull less often then a guy with 100' spooled on.
and when you do need a double line it is most often just to break a truck loose. then spool it in some un-double the line and finnish the pull.
the most common winch injury I have seen is when a guy has to hold tension on the cable to guide it on the spool because he has so much cable. then a loose strand hits his hand and cuts the hell outa it. with 60 feet I just step on the cable let it pull under my foot as I spool it on however it wants to go. it only needs to be neet and tidy if you have a 100' or more.
works for me |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 02:18 pm: |
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kinda like the concept. Plus you could also get a piece of the "rope" as an extension and not have to worry about the heat issue with some winches.
in my situation, my line has a kink about 20' out that isn't too serious, yet, it bothers me that it is there and probably not getting any better. by going this route, gain 2 birds with one stone.
Any other comments??
Jaime |
Kyle
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 02:18 pm: |
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Musky , if they let it build on one side till it came apart they are idiots and it really needed to happen to them..
Your logic does work and makes some sense but then you are stuck with that extension. thats just one more thing sitting out loose and muddy. Most winch incidents are from people that were either too lazy or too stupid to avoid them. I have been both at one time or another and seen some pretty silly shit happen. Still no decapitations though...
Kyle |
muskyman
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 02:33 pm: |
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stuck with the extension is all point of view.
you can roll them up in a blink and a couple lengths of duct tape hold them real well in a circle so they pack pretty easy. I even carry a 50 foot length of 5/8" along if I know its gonna be a messy day.
as far as building on one side goes sometimes you cant help it such as winching out of a really off camber stuck. but I agree that most people are just stupid when it comes to getting stuck and unstuck hell I was frigging brain dead when I started wheeling. I musta walked a 100miles alltogather going to get someone to recover me in my early days. then I learned,bought good recovery gear and learned to drive better and it has all worked out.now I pull way way way more then get pulled. |
Kyle
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 02:43 pm: |
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I have 150'of 3/8 on the drum and it will bunch up from time to time. BUT , I know that it will so I take steps to avoid it when I am in that situation.
Your extension also isnt adjustable. You can get in a jamb with it pretty easy when running a winch cable that short...
Kyle |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 04:19 pm: |
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but kyle , you dont count because your winch is still functional will all that still spooled on. muskie is talking about the 'lil smokers.
kai, cut the rope, you wont regret it.
rd
(i dont even own a winch) |
KJ
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 11:43 pm: |
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Rob, I'm shocked. Don't winches rate wood?
Karen  |
Jason T. Barker (Speedminded)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 11:54 pm: |
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So does a 9k lb. winch match the power of a drunk pedal happy Dodge in reverse? |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 10:10 am: |
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thinking about winches no, owning one again, yes
rd |
KJ
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 10:16 am: |
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Thanks, Rob. You know, I'm only here to learn!
Karen |
Moe (Moe)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 11:25 am: |
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I have ~ 85' of 3/8" on the RE. I cut the 15' off for the reason Musky mentions and the added benefit of an extension. I now have two other small extensions (5/16") that go with my puller. I would like a 75'+ piece of yarn that could work as an extension and a back up cable.
Musky has a good point about having fewer coils on the drum, getting the most power out of the winch. My main reason for shortening the cable was to avoid it bunching up on one side. On the trails my rig tends to see, the winch is used for shorter extractions that are often on sideslopes--not always dramatic, but enough slope to cause the cable to wrap towards one side. A straight on extraction is rare.
With too much cable on there you have the problem of stopping progress, unspooling, and then respooling. Some situations might call for securing the vehicle during that operation.
Of course, the opposite can be true when you have too little cable. I wouldn't feel that comfortable being half way up a muddy slope and then having to remove the cable extension because the 60'of cable on your winch wasn't quite enough 
150' of 3/8"? Damn Kyle. Is that yarn? |
E Snyder
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 04:43 pm: |
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I think I read this whole thread without anyone telling the first poster to put something over the cable to keep it from flying! A coat, a strap, anything to help keep it down. Maybe it's a no brainer to most of us, and it's not really related to strength of pull issues, but it never hurts to remind people. |
Kyle
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 05:43 pm: |
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No Moe , it isnt Yarn. And Slade ? A 9K is a little POS smoker..... The 8274 is a little POS smoker as well. I love how you say that its a good winch and then want all the info you can get on mods to make it a puller that wont go up in flames. Get a real fucking winch and it will pull on any fucking wrap. End of story... If I had a winch that I had to worry about how much cable was on the damn drum to get any power out of it , it wouldnt get a chance to fry. I would set the damn thing on fire myself... What a trip!!! LOl
Kyle |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 05:56 pm: |
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lol
rd |
muskyman
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 10:55 pm: |
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i had a 8274 running a 36volt motor and it too was a smoker.
kyle if you put 100ft on instead of your 150' your winch would be much easier to use.go try it for a couple trail rides and if you dont agree i'd be surprised. actually if you ran 85' of 1/2" and a hydraulic pump in place of the electric you just may have the ultimate personal use winch. I know a guy that has your winch body(or one visually identical) with a dan foss pump on it that he has on a piece of logging equipment. with the 1/2" cable it just wraps end to end perfect all by itself . |
Tom Rowe
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 09:37 am: |
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8274 a POS? Interesting. I've had an 8274 for some time, put it on my second Land Rover in '76. I've used it a *lot* since then, everything from removing my hard top, to skidding logs, to pulling my ass sideways up a hill when hung up on a small tree. Not to mention countless other vehicle recoveries. On several occasions I've also run it back under my Rover to pull myself out backwards when that was the only way to go.
Admitedly I did burn the motor up once pulling myself and three other vehicles (at once) up a long steep hill one Vermont winter, but that was just proof that haste makes waste, and my own idiocy. I didn't give it time to cool down.
Just so you know I'm not biased, I have also owned since '79 a Koenig PTO(on my '67 109), Ramsey RE1000(on my Disco for 3 years), all used extensively. The upshot is, IMHO, inteligent use of a winch is more important of a factor than size. But then I was a rigger in a past life, you learn to improvise. |
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