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Erik Geagan (Geagan)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 11:01 am: | 
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does this sound right. The ticking noise in my truck seems to be the lifters (so the mechanic tells me). I got an estimate of $2500.00 and that would take care of the lifters, gaskets, belts (basically 100K mile tune up). Refuse to have this done at the dealership, because it would be double the cost.
Again, does this sound right? I'm in Boston, if a mechanic thinks he/she could do better, e-mail me. |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 11:57 am: |
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For $2500, he'd better be doing a valve job too. That seems like an awful lot for a job that can be done with minimal disassembly.
I don't have a price for the lifters, but the gaskets that would be required shouldn't cost you more than $100 at the most.
Now for the bad news, you might have a camshaft problem. It isn't really advisable to replace lifters on a worn cam as you may accelerate camshaft wear due to the different wear patterns of a new lifter versus one that has "Worn in" on that cam lobe. Consequently, many folks will replace the camshaft at the same time. This will get more expensive in a hurry as the disassembly becomes more involved, but then again, at 100K (I'm assuming that's you rmileage), you will want to replace some other parts while you have it disassembled. Suggestions include cam chain and gears, water pump, rocker shafts, etc. My truck has nearly 160K on it and no lifter noise. Has the vehicle been maintained regularly, with emphasis on oil changes?
I don't have my estimating guide at the day job, but I don't think it would cost me that much to do it, but I'm in Indiana, so it wouldn't help you much.
I strongly suggest you take it to the dealer for their opinion on what is causing your noise. Second opinions and all that!
Paul |
Bill K (Bill_K)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 12:10 pm: |
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Have you tried switching to heavier oil, maybe a synthetic 15w-50? That might buy you more time. |
Jim
| | Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 12:23 pm: |
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I agree with Paul (I always agree with Paul).
But you should first weigh cost against benefit: Vehicles will wear. Period. Although ticking lifters may eventually lead to other failures, you have to consider what you're doing with the vehicle. If you race Baja 500's or routinely drive across Borneo you'll definitely want to make repairs. But if you use your LR to commute and occasionally off-road, you may have a lot of life left in your vehicle, worn lifters or no. And make repairs when repairs become necessary.
The dealer will always assume that you want your vehicle in perfect, mint, god-like condition (and they're happy to charge you to make it so).
The reality is that ANY vehicle is in need of SOME type of repair, whether or or not actual performance or reliability is being compromised.
I have a Disco with 100K on it and I lose about 1/2 qt of oil between changes, (oil pan, rear seal) I could spend hundreds to fix it or simply accept the problem as one condition of owning an older vehicle. I'll make repairs when I have more reason to tear it down.
I'm not a "just turn the radio up" kind of guy, but if it's just lifter noise, I'd live with it, provided the vehicle is still performing and getting through emmissions testing.
Just my two cents-don't mean to offend or tivialize.
-Jim |
todd slater (Toddslater)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 01:44 pm: |
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The noise you hear may be merely the rockers...especially if the has been no loss in the performance. |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 02:10 pm: |
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Rocker noise may also be a symptom of poor lifter performance. If the lifter is not "Pumping up", it allows the valve lash (total valve train-lifters, push rods, rocker shafts, rocker arms, and valve stem) to increase with varying degrees of noise being developed either at the lifter/cam, or at the rocker arm, along with significantly increased wear on these surfaces.
If the lifter stops pumping oil, the supply of oil to the top end can be diminished (most common cause of lifter failure and noise), which will eventually lead to a catastrophic failure due to insufficient lubrication of rapidly moving parts.
Granted, it could be wear on the rocker arms, or push rods, but my experience has been that the hydraulic function of the lifter is compromised before the other parts' wear becomes a mechanical problem.
At this point, we don't know how many miles are on the vehicle, nor its maintenance history and this vital information may point us in an entirely new direction.
It's great we have such input from something as generic as "I have a noise and my mechanic says it's lifters-$2500"! |
Jason Vance (Jason)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 03:09 pm: |
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Paul,
quick question/comment: I was not familiar with hydralic lifters as having the function of pumping oil to the top end. I was under the impression that oil pressure from the oil pump was responsible for both maintaining oil pressure within the lifter (so they do not bleed off) and forcing the oil through the pushrods to the top-end. That's why many V8's can use either hydralic lifters, mechanical flat-tappet lifters, as well as hydraulic or mechanical roller-lifters. The flow of oil to the top end does not change since the mechanical lifters would not have the same supposed pumping action as the hydralic lifters. Hydralic lifters function only to eliminate having to set valve-lash and recheck valve-lash periodically, common with flat-tappet/mechanical lifters.
If this is in dispute with your experience, let me know (not trying to fight here...).
Regardless, clogged/worn lifters may fail to pump-up leaving excessive valve-lash and causing both valve-train and cam wear; the clogged lifters may also prevent oil from getting to the top end, as Paul mentioned (but likely from oil pressure not being able to overcome the clog). Also, very importantly as Paul has mentioned, if you replace the lifters, replace the cam. You can't guarantee the new lifters have the same hardness (Rockwell) as the stock cam, or even if the Rockwell of the stock cam has changed effectively from work-hardening.
If you feel like you are getting reamed on parts, look into a mild cam and lifters from Crane at good 'ol American V8 prices instead of ultra-premium British Luxury prices (not to start another cam thread, but there are parts sources other than genuine "Land Rover"). |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 03:48 pm: |
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If the pressure is being bled off from the lifter before it can travel through the lifter body to the pushrod, you will have problems with top end oiling, if the lifter gets that bad. This can occur from either major clogging, or major wear in either the lifter itself, or the bore in which it rides. If the clearance between the lifter and the bore becomes too great, there will be insufficient flow or pressure to go up the pushrod-path of least resistance is through the lifter bore, rather than through the pushrod. If the path of oil through the lifter (hydraulic piston bleedoff) is restricted, the oil will again go down onto the crankshaft. In extreme cases, it may result in greatly increased oil pressure either blowing oil filters apart, or blowing plugs out of the back of the cam gallery, and while I have heard "Down in Tennessee" stories of this, I have yet to observe it firsthand. I've seen some major carnage, but not this, yet!
No problem. Yes, I believe that we are both correct, albeit perhaps coming to similar conclusions from different directions.
In those cases where I have suffered this problem, it has resulted in broken/bent valves and missing lobes on the camshaft-D'Oh, these problems can also occur if the bore through which the cam itself rides becomes worn (cam bearings). Usually, if it is the cam bearings, you will notice decreased cam action furthest from the oil pump as the oil is being bled away before it can get to the more distant parts of the engine and when you remove the camshaft, you find the lobes are missing.
Yes, all oil for the top end is delivered through galleys running along (above) the cam bore and pushed into the lifter, and either inflating (lack of better word!) the lifter and then the lifter bleeds this off through the pushrod to lubricate the rest of the engine. It is through this action that upper end lubrication takes place regardless of what is riding on the actual camshaft. In the case of a mechanical lifter, the lifter is doing little more than providing a tremendously hard surface to ride against the camshaft and feed lubricant through the pushrods. Of course, the benefit of not having to adjust valve lash with hydraulic lifters is hard to understate!
Inquiring minds still want to know mileage and service history. I'm beginning to suspect that this is much ado about nothing!
Paul |
Jason Vance (Jason)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 03:57 pm: |
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"Inquiring minds still want to know mileage and service history. I'm beginning to suspect that this is much ado about nothing!"
There is always much ado about nothing!!!!!! Otherwise, we'd actually be working 8^) |
todd slater (Toddslater)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 04:01 pm: |
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I agree with you Jason, except that cam replacement is not always necessary. However, if they are(and they're not)solid lifters that sieze/fail then yes definitely replace the cam. Hydraulics can fail and not wipe the cam. As Paul mentioned we don't know the mileage or year. I threw in the rockers as my (and quite a few others hereabouts) 99 D2 @ 15k needed both sides redone (under warranty)....they didn't get into the lifters. |
Erik Geagan (Geagan)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 04:40 pm: |
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To answer the above. I have a 1998 disco LSE with 99,500 miles. The performance is great and it even enhanced after adding synthetic oil (hoping it would cure the ticking). I am very good with oil changes and maintenance. I guess I have to take it into a dealership and see what they can find. Just hope it's nothing major... |
Jason Vance (Jason)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 04:59 pm: |
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Arghhh...the oil debate again!
Some people have alluded to the "slickness" of synthetics and that it 'may' allow the lifters to easily bleed off. Why not (for one oil change) try Valvoline Race (dino, not synth); it has plenty of zinc, too (which flat-tappets and cams love).
There certainly are some options for you to attempt before you succomb to the evaluation/quote from an independent shop (and not that a dealer will be anymore honest, either). |
charles pastrano (Charles)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 12:54 am: |
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Erik the ticking is normal especially during start up. My ticking started at 70k. I have 170k now. No problems. Just let the truck warm up for a few minutes in the morning and it will be OK. Do a search on ticking and you will find it is normal for these trucks. 97 SE.
Charles |
MarkM
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 09:36 am: |
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96 Disco. Had my lifters replaced at 76K. I've put a couple thousand on them now and everything seems to be OK. 800 bucks for the job. Could have saved even more if I went to Nathan for the lifters. It was too late and my shop had already sourced the parts. |
Erik Geagan (Geagan)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 09:40 am: |
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Who/where is Nathan if you had your lifters done for $800.00? |
charles pastrano (Charles)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 12:21 pm: |
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Nathan is Discount Rovers in the vendor section. Real good. |
Erik Geagan (Geagan)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 02:44 pm: |
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To end my ticking noise problem thread, I had to get an inspection sticker today and asked the guy if he would look at the engine and see where this noise is coming from. At first, he said "no" because he doesn't want to get "involved" with a Land Rover. Before getting the sticker, I went to two garages:
First garage: Told me to get rid of my truck because the engine is about to go (without really looking at it)
Second garage: Told me the will replace the lifter, gaskets for $2k-$3k
While getting my sticker, I harassed him a few more times and he finally put my baby on the lift. It turns out to be the catalytic converter that makes the rattling noise and we was also quick to point out that it wasn't the lifters. I honestly feel like going back to the other places and knock them out. Can you imagine someone who is gullible and took the advice of the first two garages? |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 03:12 pm: |
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Erik:
You have just been given a great illustration of just how difficult it is to diagnose any mechanical malfunction over the internet.
I suppose we all should be pleased at the occasional successes we have here on the board(s).
Paul |
todd slater (Toddslater)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 03:18 pm: |
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Paul hit the nail on the head. |
Dee Cantrell (Discodad)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 11:51 pm: |
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I hated when I first got into LR's back in the early 90�s, If you drove into a shop no one would touch them... Its a Buick small block
My first break down I took my 88RRC it into a reputable Land Rover repair shop. The symptom was stalling and rough idle well $300.00 later sorry we can�t find the problem. The dumb shits dropped the gas tank and changed the pump filter.... I posted on Rovers North BBS and followed the various tips. It was a rusted connector and rotted wire from the coil to the distributor amplifier... That�s when I decided its time to fix my own |
Dee Cantrell (Discodad)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 11:53 pm: |
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PS most of the internal engine parts are made in the US shipped to the UK and put in those nice green and white boxes... Then sent back at 500% to 1000% markup.. |
Jason Vance (Jason)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 01:12 am: |
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No kidding Paul!
My virtual engine stethoscope sure can't help when the info is that off the mark (don't wanna harp on anybody...but sheesh...lifters or a bad cat? Hell yeah some people deserve a boot in their teeth!). |
Dobie Disco (Mary)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 10:00 pm: |
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Glad I found this post...I put my 99 DI in the shop, since the warranty expires 11/1. Had a little house-cleaning list, one of which was the ticking noise at start-up. LR advised my lifters needed to be replaced. Got a call today that they found a lot of build-up and could leave it as is or I could spend $1200 to get it fixed. I was busy at work and not writing anything down, so I don't have all of the technical terms here, but it involves machining, etc. I asked why there would be this problem at only 43k and they said there wasn't any service history on the vehicle after 7500 mi. This was a lease return I bought in April, no repair history, and I called the prior owner to get their input. They advised of the 7500 mi. service at their LR dealer and said the remaining service had been done at the Toyota dealership where they took their other car (this is in a different state). LR says this is likely the problem, since Toyota may not be familiar with what is required at the 30k service. I also have a '96 Exploder with 135k mi. on it and have never had any problems. LR says I'm saving on labor, since part of it is covered under the lifter warranty work. I know you guys will have a good idea of what work is being done by my vague/lame description (sorry!)...does the $1200 sound reasonable? |
Jason Vance (Jason)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 11:14 pm: |
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NO!
I'm not sure what coulda been messed up on the 30K service that would have put you in a $1200 whole.
Go back to the s.tealership (screw you Kyle) and ask them about everything that is performed during a 30K service. Then ask how failure to perform any of those procedures properly could have put you in the situation you are today. Get them to write an exact quote for the work that is to be done, itemized to a T, since they know so much already.
The only thing I can see causing lifters to go at 43K is not changing the oil for 43K miles. An engine is an engine, and there is nothing so exclusive on a Land Rover that a Toyota tech, or yourself for that matter, can't do at 30K that would screw your engine over less than 15K miles later.
Finally, I don't see how they are going to cover part of the work under warranty, but not the rest of it. The rest of what? If $1200 is "saving you money" then you need to go back up to paragraph one...get that itemized quote of what they are going to do. I don't see how a warranty can only cover part of this work (plus I don't know what "this" work is, but parts is parts, labor is labor, machining in labor, and it all should be covered under powertrain since it is all ENGINE, not accessories, and not parts that are replaced on routine intervals -like timing chains, etc.-).
Sounds downright shady to me... |
Erik Geagan (Geagan)
| | Posted on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 08:00 am: |
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has anybody had their Disco serviced at 100k miles? And if so, what is done? Can I do it on my own? |
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