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michael burt (Mikeyb)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 01:15 am: | 
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so i asked this question on another thread and got a few replies, but i thought i would ask on its own and see what everyone thinks.
i drew the short straw and i have one of the '01 D2's without the cdl.
is it pointless to add lockers to the diffs, will there be some improvement, or will it still be a night and day difference regardless.
an additional question would be tru tracs front and rear, or tru front detroit rear, or arb?
thanks for the help...
mike |
Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 08:51 am: |
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You've got ETC so you don't need lockers.
Just kidding.
Which month of 2001 was yours made. Mine was in 3/02 and has the bolt.
I don't know if anyone ever looked, but internally the locker might still be there, just blanked off with a cover plate or something? Someone's gonna have to cut through and make an attachment. Anyone know if this is the case?
Dean
(sorry I'm not answering your original question. I'm only interested because one day when I blow up my t.r.a.n.n.y i'm certainly gonna get one of the new types w/out the bolt, and then i'm fucked.) |
Greg Davis (Gregdavis)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 09:26 am: |
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Michael, I did a few tests at MAR with and without the CDL engaged. It's very hard to say for sure, but with the CDL disengaged, I got alot of ETC kicking in. With the CDL engaged, it was pretty non-existant.
Are the lockers effective w/o CDL? Sure, you're still getting power to the wheel that needs it. I never got stuck either way. Perhaps someone that has tried this out a little more may have some more input. |
Marc Ingham (Marcingham)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 10:39 am: |
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Greg,
just out of curiousity, with a rear locker and no cdl, what happens when a front wheel loses traction? |
adtoolco
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 11:33 am: |
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Marc...ETC. It really is a fine system. Feels like cheating somtimes and I'm happy its there. Who said cheaters never prosper.
-Chris |
R. B. Bailey (Rover50987)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 12:07 pm: |
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I understand that many of the new American Discos do not have CDL, but reading about this here I just realized something - does this mean they do not even have a semi-locking or viscus diff in the center?
I just assumed that they were like the older Range Rovers, which with the viscus diff, seemed to make their drivers happy anyway. Is this not the case?
http://landrover.mrbaileyshistory.net |
Dave_Lucas (Dave_Lucas)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 12:23 pm: |
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My understanding is that Mid year 2001 to current discos are fully open in the center. |
Brian Friend (Brianfriend)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 12:25 pm: |
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Michael,
If you install lockers without the cdl you will have power to either the front axles or rear axles if you are in a slipping situation but not to both at the same time. If you take your disco and disable the etc all the torque will flow to the path of eisiest resistance. The center differential acts exactly the way your axle diffs work. So...I think the only way for lockers to be truly efective in your situation is to find a way to lock that center diff, otherwise you probably ought to stay the way you are. Of course I am not a mechanic, I just play one on the weekends. |
R. B. Bailey (Rover50987)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 12:38 pm: |
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If you have no ETC, installing a locker in the rear or the front will automatically negate your 4 wheel drive. (If the center is non-locking, non-viscus, or non-semi-locking.) The torque will flow to the path of least resistance. i.e. if you lock the rear but not the front, the torque will simply go to the front because all the resistance is in the rear. Therefore, you might need to wiegh the consequenses of what Greg Davis said in his first post about ETS not kicking in (as much) when there is a locker installed.
I would think that the place to start would be to see if you can lock the center diff - the other diffs are useless off road without it - but then again, we have ETS now. But what if that goes out????
http://landrover.mrbaileyshistory.net |
michael burt (Mikeyb)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 12:57 pm: |
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yeah brian,
that sounds logical...i guess with an active etc, it is unimportant as to what the center diff is. i am assuming the etc will just duplicate what the lockers are trying to do. i am sure that without etc, lockers would be quite useless, i am just not sure how etc might overcome the open diff situation and actually be at least a little better than no lockers at all. i had a guy at rover tell me that you should go lockerless with etc, but i was not sure it that was the rover party line or not.
hey greg...
hows it going...? i guess i see why you had etc kicking in a lot without your center diff locked. i also imagine it was hard to really say, but do you think you were better off with lockers...? not to put you on the spot! ;)
hello dean,
mine is a 07/01...and i understand that the transfer case has been neutered. it has no cdl parts and if yours does pooch, then you should look for an earlier box. i am thinking that may be my best action. just find a earlier box and install it...
thanks for the infor so far, gentlemen...if anyone wants to pipe in...
mike |
Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 01:15 pm: |
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Mike - could you tell me your source of info (that the t-case has been neutered inside too)? I don't doubt you, just wanna know.
Dean |
Greg Davis (Gregdavis)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 01:24 pm: |
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Marc, I have a front TT, so even if the rears were to spin I would still have power up front.
Mike, on the trails that we were on, I had non-locked DII's following me. My vehicle worked less, but the others still made it. I have been through obstacles with my lockers that stopped me before, but for the most part, the others did fine.
I got my lockers for two reasons; one, I got a good deal on them, and two, I like trying to go places that I shouldn't really be.
Keep wheeling your vehicle as it is. If you need any upgrades, you'll eventually know. I've added alot of things to mine that I probably will never "need", but wanted non the less. |
michael burt (Mikeyb)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 01:24 pm: |
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hey dean...
uh...no. sorry man! actually, i am pretty sure i read it here that the parts are gone. a cdl search might turn it up, but i am sure it would turn up a lot of other cdl stuff too...so maybe the person that posted that info last time will let us know again...i was thinking that if i had to remove the case to modify the thing i would just work out an exchange with the yard i bought the cdl case from. buy the yard's for "x" and sell them back mine for "y." if the thing has to come out to modify, then i might as well replace the whole thing with one already equipped with the post...
just my current thoughts...
mike |
michael burt (Mikeyb)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 01:31 pm: |
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hey greg...
thanks...you know how these things are...i am a kid in the candy store when it comes to overdoing it on truck parts...;) you are probably right. if i get stuck or break a diff, then i will know what i need. but i also have a crazy thirst for info...so inquiring minds are inquiring!
mike
p.s...i am totally ready to install those spacers! i am afraid i will be out of town this next weekend so i am looking at a night time install or 2 weeks of wait! AAAAHHHHHHHHH! ;)
thanks for your imput, greg! |
Greg Davis (Gregdavis)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 01:37 pm: |
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The CDL parts are in each t-case, you just can't actuate it in the mid 01's and up. Internals are the same, just no external stud (except for the non-US 03's!). |
michael burt (Mikeyb)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 04:48 pm: |
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so does this mean that i can take a hammer and a screwdriver to the top of the case i can still have the hook up!
;)
so, actually, i am interested...i wonder how one would go about getting access to, and connections to, the linkage? i am sure it would take acquiring the "nut," but i am wondering if the shaft that the nut terminates is all that is missing?
mike |
scott
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 08:34 pm: |
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Greg-
So you've got a TT up front and nothing in the back? Without the CDL engaged, how do you think it compared with all open diffs? ETC still kick in just as much or a little less?
I've read (I think it was Neil on yahoo D2 group) that the lockers were fairly useless w/out CDL? It seems like a couple of the TT's would reduce the amount that ETC kicks in. And provide some protection in the event of complete ETC failure. Maybe not as good as adding CDL to the ETC, but if you've got no option but to spend $2K to swap out transfer cases, maybe it's not too bad either...
Brian- 2 lockers w/out CDL just means that the ETC will break front vs rear axle to equalize wheel spin across the axles. If your front wheels were on ice and rears had traction, the ETC would break the front wheels, which will transfer torque to the rears to get you moving. I think the disco2.com site has a tech section that goes thru all these different options. What's not clear is given a lack of CDL on the newer D2's how effective would 2 lockers really be in practice?
It would be really interesting if one of the rover shops like East Coast Rovers tried to open up the top of the newer style transfer cases to add CDL. It certainly seems like you should be able to drill a hole in the top and add the shaft/nut... Obviously in practice I'm sure it's not as simple as that sounds.
Enough rambling on my part.
Regards,
Scott |
LR Max
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 10:01 pm: |
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I dunno about adding lockers w/out a center diff, but I do know that the ETC works extremely well. In June I was up at Uhwarrie and a guy there had a D2 and was eatin' up the trails (had a little bigger BFG MT's on it, no lift). I saw that truck lift wheels off the ground and it just stayed still. The tire didn't even turn.
At MAR I saw a D2 climb out of the mudhole on the West Ford trail and I think that the ETC was the deciding factor. The only other vehicles that didn't ride a tow strap or winch cable out of there was two rangies that bashed in their rear quarter panel, a locked up D90 and a Series 3 88".
So, I think that the ETC is pretty good from what I've seen. I
Max T.
I'm kinda eye ballin' them D2s now. |
KJ
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 11:39 pm: |
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Good lord! Someone saying something nice about the D2's?????? LOL!
Karen  |
michael burt (Mikeyb)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 01:48 am: |
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after hearing all the anti-D2 stuff, karen...it is nice to hear that they can get it on!...thanks everyone for the info and opinions...keep 'em comming. i am still interested in hearing if anyone thinks that opening a non-cdl shaft case can be done.
mike |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 02:08 am: |
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Yes, it can be done...sort of. You buy a new transfer case with the CDL shaft. I have seen them on Ebay for Buy It Now prices around $500 - $600. Beyond that you are likely SOL. Still, for the price: Just Do It. There is no better upgrade you can make to a DS2 than CDL. It brings ETC to a different level.
Curtis |
michael burt (Mikeyb)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 02:15 am: |
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yeah curtis...
i agree that in the grand scheme of things, 600 for a cdl case is not too bad when you consider that spending 600 on sliders will not get you any deeper in the caca...but a cdl case will. but wanting to conserve dollars, i just wanted to explore all options before i end up with a non-cdl shaft case in the attic...
mike |
lord of the rings
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 12:00 pm: |
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why are you all so worried about this locker thing? all you need is ETC! |
michael burt (Mikeyb)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 12:32 pm: |
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because i want everything!!!!!!!!!!!
;) |
Npzook
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 02:11 am: |
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Over here in Australia there are after market kits availabe to activate the centre diff lock in series 2 discos. The vehicle perform brilliant with etc and the centre diff locked, basically becoming unstopable, check out Graheme Cooper auto at http://www.lrexpert.com.au/custom.php?page=disco or John davis Motorworks at http://www.jdm.com.au/ |
michael burt (Mikeyb)
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 02:38 am: |
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thanks n...
the problem that post mid-'01 disco's have is not that the linkage is missing, it is that the attachment point for the linkage is missing. there is a nut on top of the transfer case that pre mid-'01's have that attaches to the cdl hardware inside the case. in these vehicles, it is possible to retro fit the kits onto. post mid'01's have a sealed case without any way to hook up to the good bits.
it was this brilliant, unstoppable disco i was chasing...but without any way to access the cdl...
mike |
Greg Davis (Gregdavis)
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 01:11 pm: |
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Scott, earlier I had mentioned that I had a Detroit in the rear. Someone then asked if that was all I had. I was responding to them with my "TT up front" response. To set the record straight, I have a mechanical CDL linkage, Detroit in the rear, and True-Trac up front. |
scott
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 04:35 pm: |
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Greg,
How would you compare CDL+ETC (no lockers) vs. ETC+Lockers (your TT in front & detroit in back, w/out CDL)? Your practical experience will be very useful for those of us with the newer discos.
I think the various locker options run around $400 each + install vs CDL which is $500-1000 + hefty install, so it seems like a valid option for those of us w/out the older transfer case to consider if the benefits are reasonably good.
Thanks!
Scott |
JEN STOLEN (Rovr4x4)
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 11:31 pm: |
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I would not advise running lockers without the CDL. Have seen that running the LT230 without the center diff locked will break the pins that hold the gears in the center diff. This is the weak point in the transfer case design. The original off-road design with the diff locked made it one of the strongest transfer case avail in a stock vehicle. With the addition of ETC and removal of CDL problems with the center diff pins have been seen in Series II Discos that see frequent off-road action. My advise would be to forget the lockers and install the CDL and make sure the diff lock switch is put in place. The diff lock switch is used by the ABS module to decide how the ETC system needs to configure itself. With the CDL locked I believe the ETC works similar to the RR 4.0/4.6 system that controls each axle. Spoke to a man that had great results with this once he learned how to get the most out of this setup. The best part would be not having to spend the money on lockers and be able to use what is already their for free. |
scott
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 11:46 pm: |
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Jen Stolen- CDL is only "free" for those with earlier D2's. Mike (the original poster) doesn't have it and neither do I, so adding CDL is a $2000 proposition. Lockers probably are somewhat cheaper than that, so there's some interest in the trade off's. Your comments seem to indicate some additional issues I haven't heard of.
Hmmm, if the center diff breaks under warrantee, do you think LR would install a '00 case for me for free? ;-)
Thx! Scott |
Ross Thoma (Rossthoma)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 12:03 am: |
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I may be totally waked here but the end product that we want is for the wheels (all 4) to turn at the same speed for maximun traction.
System #1
Locked center dif = solid link from the front to the back so the wheels turn at the same speed
Lockers = Solid link from wheel to wheel on same axle (when engaged).
CDL and Locker (when engaged) combination = Solid link from axle to axle and wheel to wheel ie. all 4 wheels turn at same rate for max traction.
System #1
ETC = using ABS system to acheve the effect of CDL and Locker (when engaged) combination by pulsing the brakes to limit the speed of individual wheels so they all turn at the same rate.
ETC and lockers = lockers take care of most of the wheel to wheel spin so the ETC is left to act as the CDL and mediate the front and rear axles.
Both systems strive for the same end. The ETC does it buisness right at the tires and is reactionary when slipage occures while the CDL does it along the drive lines and starts at the x-fre case.
Which is better?? ETC don't need lockers but the brakes need to be dry for optimum preformance and the breaking action eats horsepower usualy when you need it the most. CDL system works good but needs lockers or tt's to work exelent. Different means to the same ends one is high tech and the other is low tech.
To each his own.
Ross Thoma |
michael burt (Mikeyb)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 12:21 am: |
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hey jen...
thanks for the comments...you can't lose the more you know...
my follow up question is this then...:
according to greg davis, the late 01 and 02 t-cases have the parts still in but absent the cdl nut to turn the system on and off. the 03 units do not have the nut and it is not necessarly known if the have the important parts inside.
so, if i am following correctly, actuating the cdl strenghtens the whole system and in that mode it can handle the extra stress that lockers add. not locked, traction control somehow puts additional pressure on the pins.
if this is the case then i would assume that the etc (by duplicating the effect of lockers at the wheel instead of the diff, will still stress the pins and therefore there is a reliability problem regardless of using lockers or not.
so would you really lose anything on longevity? and maybe, (keep this quite so rover will not hear!) i wonder like scott does, if the case breaks, why not offer to LR to either install a 00 year t-case or at least supply cash so i (or you or us or we) can buy our own t-case with the cdl nut and install that?
thanks
mike |
JEN STOLEN (Rovr4x4)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 12:25 am: |
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In using the statement "free" I was talking about the ETC system control for each axle individualy. If cheap is the goal (and when is it not) any LT230 t-box at least from 94 up will have the parts you need inside and all the parts will fit yours (front output cone, ect).As long as it is from an auto unit the whole box will fit in with the swapping of a few parts like the frt flange. As for the factory warranty replaceing the transfer case under warr after it breaks, keep in mind that damage caused by modifications is not covered under warranty. I know personally that LRNA has a strict policy on mods and will deny warranty coverage if even the slightest mod may have affected the life of a factory component. If your slick enough with the transfer case the disco II's during 01 for the most part had CDL and they probably would not be able to tell if it was modified or would not have a lot of ground to stand on to deny warranty coverage.
Just a thought |
Greg Davis (Gregdavis)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 09:56 am: |
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Scott, from what I can recall, when I had CDL+ETC only, I had VERY little interaction from the TC. With the lockers and ETC (CDL NOT engaged), it seemed that I got more ETC interaction. With no CDL but with lockers, the ETC is constantly fighting to keep the front and rear turning at the same rate. With CDL and ETC, it's only comparing wheel spin from side-to-side.
Again, the only thing the lockers are doing for me is making it much easier to go the same places I went before. There have been a FEW places that the lockers have taken me that the prior setup couldn't, but they were very limited instances.
I'd say start with the transfer case if you can. Find a low-mileage unit from a salvage yard. Someone on the Yahoo group found one for $900 (I think). Then, if you think you need even more traction later on, you could then add the lockers.
You could always add lockers now, but for the money, I'd look for the t-case first. I mean, if you're considering adding lockers, then warranty work isn't an issue for you anyway.
And as far as Jen's comments on warranty work, I have experienced first hand that that's a very subjective area. My dealer has done a LOT of warranty work for me, even after the CDL and lockers (replaced front d-shaft). Just depends on your relationship with the service manager and whether or not he or she is a car person(meaning that they have enough common sense to realize what items will affect the components in question). |
scott
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 01:14 pm: |
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Greg- Thanks, that answers what I was wondering about. When adding up 2 lockers, it does seem like you are getting close to the same price as a used xfer case w/CDL nut. Either way, I'll have to stick with ETC alone for a while. I'm on lease for another 2.5 years. At that point I'll get to decide on keeping it and can start thinking about adding CDL or going with a new one - maybe LRNA will offer CDL by 2005... In the mean time, I'll count on my inexperience and stock truck to go where I want and probably won't be able to get into a situation ETC can't handle.
Jen- Got it. thx for clarifying "free", obviously I misunderstood. That's interesting that a D1 LT230 case should also work on the D2's. Maybe opens up some more options.
Thanks!
Scott |
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