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Brad S. Chuy
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 04:45 pm: | 
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Hello all -
I started this conversation inside of another thread. Since it sounds like more information is required, I decided to start a new conversation.
My wife was driving our brand new 2002 Discovery SE on the evening of October 23rd. The road was completely dry and the weather had been dry for a couple of days. She was doing about 50 - 55 Mph when she decided to change lanes. Upon starting her move to the right lane, the steering wheel began jerking from left to right causing the whole car sway. She tried her best to control the steering as not to hit any cars on either side of her. The swaying worsened and she tried applying the brakes. The brake pedal had very little affect. She was fortunate enough that she did not hit any other vehicles. Only the two concrete wall dividers on either side of the road.
We've talked about the whole incident several times together and I even asked if it was possible she could have hit both the gas and break? She says no, she was sure her foot was firmly on the brake. She did say that she didn't try to slam on the brakes because she wasn't sure if that would cause the car to become even more unstable.
In the end, our Discovery did its job. It protected my wife very well despite the amount of damage the exterior sustained. She only has a few bruises and a lot of muscle soreness.
We are both very curious as to how this could be possible and we would like to more closely determine operator error from mechanical defect. It really worries me if this is truly a mechanical defect and could happen again to me or someone else.
Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions and ideas.
Best regards,
Brad |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 06:04 pm: |
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Glad to hear the big steel & aluminum box kept her safe. I've heard of people hitting both pedals at once and being amazed at the results (one California girl comes to mind). Other culprits could be: loose steering links? Bad steering stabilizer shock? Tire/wheel issue? Brand new D2?...I'd be asking the dealer these questions too (which you probably have). |
neil
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 06:37 pm: |
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Could a faulty ACE system cause this? Does your SEs come with ACE?
Neil
01DII |
Brad S. Chuy
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 10:59 pm: |
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Yupp, I've asked the dealer lots of questions. But then again, if I were in their shoes, I would deny ever hearing of any other incidents like this one.
I'm not sure if mine had ACE. I'm positive it didn't have SLS, if that's any consequence. It was a DII Westminster Edition. If anyone else reads this and knows, please comment.
I've thought about several different scenarios as well, however I don't know how to prove anything since it has gone through a heck of an impact.
Again, thanks for all the help.
Brad |
KJ
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 11:19 pm: |
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I did that foot on both pedals scenario and scared the snot out of myself. It did not cause any side-to-side problems though, and the engine revved loudly (which she might recall if that was the case), as one might expect. It doesn't sound as if this was the cause of your wife's accident. I'm relieved to hear she's O.k., but it had to be traumatizing. Good luck getting everything sorted out.
Karen |
Milan
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 11:20 pm: |
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My guess would be that she possibly experienced what happens when the stabilizer shock is worn and it maybe developed into what's called a "death wobble" - a severe shimmy/wobble. This phenomenon is typically a result of too little caster or loose ball joints or tie rod ends.
However, the shimmy you get when the stabilizer is shot can cause this wobble as well. The steering shimmy is kind of unique to front solid axles. Engineers will usually tell you that properly designed front solid axle geometry should not need a steering stabilizer and I concur, yet every solid axle vehicle I have driven seems to do better with the stabilizer installed and in good working condition.
I cannot explain the brakes but I'm sure vibrations or rather the tires oscillating left to right so fast that they are loosing traction could cause the ABS to engage and thus you get the feeling brakes are not slowing you down.
Of course this is all a theory from my keyboard here. Good luck with the repairs. |
Milan
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 11:22 pm: |
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Oh yeah,
Maybe that one-foot-on-both-pedals case would be another reason to try the "other" technique - one foot on each pedal. ;) |
Brad S. Chuy (Bradchuy)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 11:23 pm: |
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Dear Milan -
Thank you for the insight. However, now for the ten million dollar question. Can I prove it? If this truly was the cause of a mechanical failure, then I want LRNA to buy me a brand new rover.
Please advise.
Thanks,
Brad |
Axel Haakonsen (Axel)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 11:27 pm: |
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You said there were concrete dividers on both sides, so this was in a construction zone? They weren't paving there by any chance, were they? One lane paved, while the other was not, and she was trying to climb the edge of the freshly paved lane? That could cause the scenario you describe.
The other thing that came to my mind was a faulty steering stabilizer - unlikely on a smooth, dry road, thogh, unless she hit a big pothole - or a blown tire. I doubt that ACE or SLS would cause the steering wheel to start jerking.
Whatever the cause was, the main thing is that there were no serious personal injury. You can always replace the car. |
Brad S. Chuy (Bradchuy)
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 11:34 pm: |
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The concrete divider on the left was dividing the two sides of the highway (Four lane highway, two lanes on each side). The concrete divider on the right was to keep you out of the clover leaf created by the incoming on-ramp.
We've driven the area several times since to check for road hazards. No construction or road hazards present. |
Mark Albrecht
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 04:26 am: |
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Brad -- if you really want to prove your case, you need an automotive engineer expert. They don't come cheap, however, I seen them come up with viable theories/facts from scraps of car parts left from major collisions. Or, you could pay your deductible and let your insurnace company duke it out with LRNA. |
Will Pace (D1d90)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 08:22 am: |
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Brad,
If the ABS had freaked out, and I am assuming it is at least a three channel ABS system I really don't know, and applied braking to only one wheel especially the left front in this case you would have exactly what happened. Look for faulty sensors. Maybe take it out and get into the ABS good in a straight line stop (nail the pedal and don't let up) and see what happens. 30-35 mph is plenty fast to do this.
You could take the steering stabilizer off and stick up an engineer's ass and it would not do this. I have a solid axle vehicle with 175,000 miles and it has never had a stabilizer. Was supposed to but was not installed at factory??? I never bothered to put one on.
If the bolt in the upper or lower end of the panhard rod broke you would get a wild ride also. This is easy to prove but probably not the case unfortunately. I have had this happen and you will think you are going to die.
You most likely had a "Christine" thing going and the car, ESPECIALLY if it had ACE, began to think for itself.
I would document it and have the dealer sign your story on paper (not accusing them but just acknowledging that you told them what happened) and sit back and watch for a technical bulletin or a recall on either an ABS system or the ACE system.
I used to work for a company and Bosch would send their engineers to us for driving training and they had some scary stories about gyro's and stuff that are supposed to stabilize a vehicle in accident situations. Good luck. |
Dave_Lucas (Dave_Lucas)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 10:08 am: |
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Brad,
Maybe you should check the computer and see if any faults were generated, it may have a clue as to what was going on or nothing at all, but it could not hurt.
Also, I am not sure if your DII was part of the ABS and throttle cable recall, but have you had the work done on your DII if it was part of the recall? |
Will Pace (D1d90)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 03:13 pm: |
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So there already was a recall? Ahah!! If ABS and throttle battle for supremacy(sp?)things could get hairy pretty quick like. |
Brad S. Chuy (Bradchuy)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 10:49 pm: |
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I've been to service twice already. Once for an oil change, once because my NAV unit antenna died. You would think they would have notified me that a recall was due at the same time.
Also, I've posted pictures from the repair yard on my web site. Take a look.
Best regards,
Brad
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4
Pic 5
Pic 6
Pic 7
Pic 8 |
KJ
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 11:07 pm: |
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I don't know if that recall had anything to do with the 2002 MY. I know 2001's were recalled because I had that work done.
Karen |
carlt
| | Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 10:25 am: |
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Will
If the ABS system, 4 channel or not, senses a fault on anything on in the system, it will disable itself. It will not give you ABS on partial wheels, its all or none.
Brad
My wife had a the powersteering unit go haywire when the truck had approx 2000 miles on it. While she was leaving one of her department stores of choice( What else is new....? ), the truck suddently wouldn't turn to the left. She barely missed slaming into a concrete pillar. Very scary I thought as it might as well have happened at freeway speeds... The problem had something to do with the steering gearbox LR said. It basically felt like the powersteering was working against itself in one direction. Could your wife have experienced something similar, the powersteering going beserk?
Carl |
Milan
| | Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 10:45 am: |
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Brad,
I'm sorry but I don't know how you could prove this. The steering stabilizer when it goes can be OK over a given obstacle one time then not another time. Only when it's completely shot will it allow the steering shake over that obstacle every time. I was also assuming that there was something on the road to cause the shake in the first place. You mentioned your wife was changing lanes so I assumed some road imperfection at that very spot. |
Jim Kemp (Jimkemp)
| | Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 11:11 am: |
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Brad,
I had two Ford trucks with solid front axles and stabilizer shocks and bars. Both would give me the death wobble when moving 50+ MPH on any given road surface. No warnig or suspected cause. I never lost total control of the vehicles, however, I wasn't turning or changing lanes. Slowing down would make the shake go away. Additionally, when this would occur, I would hear the tires churp, meaning they would loose contact with the pavement. In your case, I would think this would activate the ABS system, making it feel as though the brake pedal was slipping. I didn't have ABS on these trucks so I can not attest to this.
My trucks were 89 Ford F450's. It took about three mechanics to resolve the problem. Once the assembly was replaced, I never had another problem. I would definately have this assembly checked by a technician you trust but not a LRNA technician.
Most importantly, I'm glad to hear your wife is OK. If it was the "death wobble" then she has experienced probably one of the scariest things that can happen on the highway. Out of nowhere, total loss of control. |
Brad S. Chuy (Bradchuy)
| | Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 11:19 am: |
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Dear Carl (carlt) -
Please contact me directly via my e-mail address
[email protected]
You could be an extremely helpful resource if I have to get someone to back up my story.
Thank you very much,
Brad |
Ron
| | Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 10:26 pm: |
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She just "changed lanes"?
Several ways this could be looked at:
1. 50-55 is really 75-80 and and just changed lanes was vroom vroom change lanes like an M3, or a tire blew, or something on that order.
2. There are several things which "could" cause a problem BUT you would have noticed them before. A bad damper would have been painfully obvious and I have never seen one fail suddenly and even without a damper the truck is completly controlable at triple digit speeds. Ditto for a steering box which you would have noticed before hand..
There is no SLABS recall on 2002.
So basically, your insurance company will buy you a new disco, not LRNA
Ron |
Brad S. Chuy (Bradchuy)
| | Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 10:49 pm: |
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Dear Ron -
I'm positive my wife is telling the truth. Scenario #1 isn't possible because she was in rush hour traffic, and in that area you can only do 50 - 55 mph. It's a miracle that the truck didn't kill anyone on the road that night.
Also, as mentioned above, all four tires are intact.
I understand your position. Anything that could cause this problem would have been obvious. I felt the same way, that's why I posted this message on the board. I wanted to find out how it could be possible and if anyone else had ever seen anything like it. As it turns out, there are several knowledgeable members here and they all have admitted that it could be possible for several different reasons. Even another member on this same board had a similar event occur with his DII.
I don't want to point fingers. I'm not looking for LRNA to give me a multi-million dollar settlement. However, I do want the incident investigated. If this has happened to more than one person, what stops it from happening to another? It's easy to turn your head and say someone messed up or was negligent. However, by taking that position nothing is learned and more people could be in danger.
I would once again like to thank everyone on the board for their ideas, suggestions, and support. I also encourage anyone with similar experiences to please post. Your input may possibly be extremely valuable in diagnosing a potentially serious problem.
Respectfully yours,
Brad |
Ron
| | Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 10:58 pm: |
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Well there is always a chance . . . |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 08:15 am: |
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Brad:
Have your insuracne company get in touch with Failure Analysis Associates, Inc. I don't have contact info available here, but this sounds like they could help you. In past jobs, my employers have utilized their services to prove negligence/liability on the part of huge companies like Bechtel, Westinghouse, General Electric, and Babcock and Wilcox.
FAA employs lawyers and engineers to represent folks in just such scenarios. If it is as serious as you have described, the professionals need to get involved. Your insurance company will likely know how to involve them, if you psuh ahrd enough.
Glad your wife is OK, but I will use this as further reasoning for why my wife isn't allowed to drive MY truck:-).
Peace,
Paul |
Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp)
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 10:07 am: |
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Regarding the steering stabilizer, I have to question the assertion that if there is a bad steering stabilizer, the car will wobble. This weekend I replaced my steering links with the heavy suty stainless links from Rovertym. At the end of the installation I began to install the steering stabilizer relocation kit. The problem was that the unit that goes on to the steering rod didn't fit the stabilizer.
I have been driving without the stabilizer for a couple days with no wobble to speak of. The only difference that I can tell is that the steering is lighter than before.
I think that problems arise when the stabilizer is bad and other problems arise at the same time, such as bad tie-rod ends, alignment is off, etc. All that the stabilizer is doing is dampening the wobble. |
Mike Carino (Mikec)
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 10:43 am: |
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Brad, not sure what would cause the wobble, could have been anything from suspensionfailure to steering problems. But I can say for sure that when the wife went for the brakes and they weren't there, was probably and effect of the wobble. What happened is when the front wheels wobbled, they pushed the pads all the way back into the calibers. It usually takes a pump or two to bring them back. Happens alot in car and motorcycle racing when you experience wheel wobble. |
Milan
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 12:04 pm: |
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Like I said, death wobble is usally the result of poor geometry or something loose (ball joints, track bar, control arm bushings, tie rod ends, etc.).
However, should your vehicle be susceptible to death wobble, the stabilizer can prevent it. On mine when it went bad, after hitting the "right" road roughness, the front end would go into a wobble and the oscilation would get progressively worse until it would almost put the vehicle out of control. I always caught it before going out of control by braking and slowing down. However, knowing this was neither right nor safe the front end was checked and steering stabilizer was replaced. No more death wobble. Now since the front end parts and alignment specs checked out, what could it have been? |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 12:21 pm: |
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Quote:WILL: You could take the steering stabilizer off and stick up an engineer's ass and it would not do this.
Quote:RON: A bad damper would have been painfully obvious and I have never seen one fail suddenly and even without a damper the truck is completly controlable at triple digit speeds.
Quote:MIKE: I think that problems arise when the stabilizer is bad and other problems arise at the same time, such as bad tie-rod ends, alignment is off, etc. All that the stabilizer is doing is dampening the wobble.
FYI - I developed uncontrollable steering wobble on my (solid-axle) 1996 D1. It would happen on paved roads, usually (but not always) after hitting a pothole or bump in the road. I took it to the dealer, and they replaced the tie rod and torqued all the steering components. I paid the bill, left the dealership, and headed downtown to my office. About 2 miles from the dealership, I lost control on a perfectly-smooth highway entrance ramp. I was accelerating past about 60mph and I was in the middle of a broad right-hand curve when the wobble started. I bounced off the ramp, through some bushes, and stopped onto the gravel shoulder.
Now, I know that my links were nice & tight, and I had a new tie rod (I double-checked) Also, the dealer's inspection of the drag link and ball joints showed them to be fine. Before the dealer did the repairs, I asked them about the steering stabilizer shock. They said it was fine and the wobble was strictly due to a bent tie rod and loose components. After I left the dealership and lost control again, I took it back to the dealer and they told me to leave the Disco and give them a few days for them to get back to me with another estimate to do God knows what (fix it again?!)...
I bought an Old Man Emu steering stabilizer shock from an aftermarket supplier, slapped it on there myself, and the problem was solved. Incidentally, that was the last time my Disco was at the dealer. I have to disagree with Will & Ron, and I agree with Mike. However, experience shows me that just a bad stabilizer can cause the "death wobble". |
Jeff Price
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 12:35 pm: |
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Do you have any pictures underneath?
I am specifically interested in the suspension mounting points and the steering linkages.
Instinctively, this doesn't sound like something a steering damper could cause. If this started suddenly then it sounds like something failed at that moment in time causing this. Given how little damage there appears to be it should be possible to find that failure component.
Bouncing off the jersey wall on both sides sounds like a tie-rod failure, but that seems extremely premature in a 2001 vehicle, and the wheels wouldn't be as parallel as yours appear to be.
Have you tried driving it since the accident? Just around the neighborhood. |
Brad S. Chuy (Bradchuy)
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 01:05 pm: |
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Dear Jeff -
I don't have any pictures from underneath, yet. The repair yard has to actually put the car on a roll back in order to pull it into the garage to put it on the lift.
So, driving is fairly impossible. Ohh, even the engine wouldn't turn on when the roll back guys got there to take it away.
Thanks again,
Brad |
Mike Carino (Mikec)
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 01:38 pm: |
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Brad,
turn on as in power ( electrical) or turn over. Don't forget that during the accident the emergency fuel pump shut off was activated, disabling the fuel pump. i think the switch to turn it back on is on the firewall somewhere. Not sure of it's exact location though.
Mike |
Greg Davis (Gregdavis)
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 03:29 pm: |
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Brad, I don't know if it was from the impact or not, but that front axle is WAY off center. Possibly a panhard bolt failed? Seems to me that if you were to look under the vehicle, it would be fairly obvious to tell if the panhard bolt failed before the accident or if it were damaged during the incident. Just my $.02. |
Mike B.
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 12:28 am: |
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Discos are very top heavy. They are pretty easy to loose control of. Especially if one drives it like a car.
The wobling uncontrollable could have happened as the car slid sideways and the front tires scrubbed accross the pavement. When your wife said the brakes did not do much, that also indicates to me that it was sliding sideways. Your wife is lucky, most Discos (and a lot of other SUVs) end up rolling under these situations.
By all means, feel free to search for an answer, but don't obsess about it. People loose control of their vehicles all the time. Like the other posts mentined, have a look underneath. If you don't find anything obvious, move on with your life.
I'd say that you and your wife are very lucky. Be sure to give you wife a really big hug and be sure to tell her how much you care. Then go out and buy her a new Disco with ACE.
Thanks,
Mike B. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 10:08 am: |
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I agree with mike(because that guy can drive)lol
no really I agree with the move on part.
when a car/truck gets sideways the wheels can be stopped and accelerated confussing the ABS and the driver to what is really happening. weight transfer can then make the vehicle feel like it has a mind of its own.
spending time trying to figure out what happened may just make you and your wife gun shy about driving in general. plus unless there are a buncha vehicles involved or a fatality your insurance company could really care what happened so bugging them to bring in an outside engineer is just a waste of time and money.
MORAL: SHIT HAPPENS |
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