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MDH II (Fhg)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 06:42 am: | 
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Our 1st Discovery was bought new in �95: Caprice green V8i model. Our family had many adventures � visiting a lot of remote and unspoiled wilderness throughout Southern Africa. The best were undoubtedly the Namib (�Spencer bay�) dessert trail (Luderitz, Namibia), Koakoland Namibia (border Nambia and Angola� not a �trail�, simply rugged wilderness) and Richtersveld (northern Cape Province, South Africa � rugged �rock dessert�).
Although we had our share of reliability problems (luckily always in everyday �city driving� � never when on tour in remote regions�) the irritation with these niggles passed quickly. Fuel consumption however was terrible and parts and servicing costs exorbitant. Earlier this year we upgraded to a Discovery II TD5 � diesel - (with SLS, ACE etc�). This car is a phenomenal improvement on the D1 (especially ride, handling). But in our mind the single best improvement over the old V8i DI is the cutting edge turbo-diesel engine. South Africans have a marked �euro centric� nature when it comes to cars (except for the legions of Toyota fans�) and the movement towards modern TD�s is strong here like in Europe (even for passenger cars esp. BMW, Mercedes and VW�s). We live at an elevation of 1200m (almost 3500ft) and with petrol engines loose about 15 � 20% of power, Turbo charged engines loose only about 3 � 8%. Thus the TD5 (5 cylinder) feels even more responsive than our old V8 below 3000rpm (at our altitudes). The V8 is quicker in the 3000 to 4300rpm range though. At sea level however there is no contest - with the V8 simply quicker everywhere. The TD5 uses much less fuel than the V8. Got 600km (360miles) on a tank in the V8 (120 litres � 31 gallons [extra tank]) � with the TD5 we get 1100km (682 miles) on 120 liters (31 gallons). The 5 cylinder engine is surprisingly smooth and emits an Audi Quattro like wail if extended (although at idle it sounds like a tractor�). Service intervals is 12000 miles (with low sulphur diesel). Most Discoveries sold here in South Africa and Europe are diesels.
I would like to know if this fantastic TD5 engine is even available in the Discovery in the US, and if so what do the Americans think of this model? |
John Moore (Jmoore)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 08:17 am: |
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I have heard great things about that engine, unfortantely it is not an option in the US. New 2003 discos in the US now only come with the 4.6 V8, previously they were only available in the US in the 4.0 model. Range Rovers until 2003 were available in either 4.0 or 4.6.
Despite the obvious advantages, consuption, relibility, torque, longevity diesels are very unpopular in the US in every day cars. However, almost all big trucks are diesels. I'm not even sure what automakers in the US even offer diesel anymore, you occasionally see a Mercedes of Volvo with one, but usually there are a few years old. Fuel here is still relatively cheap (Here in Upstate New York $1.50/gallon) so people prefer petrol!
On a side note, some custom LR shops can do a diesel conversion, but it is expensive. A good US site is www.eastcoastrovers.com.
Happy cheaper, more reliable, diesel motoring.
-John |
Eric N (Grnrvr)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 08:17 am: |
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We are only offered the V8 here is the USA. |
Leslie N. Bright (Leslie)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 08:26 am: |
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VW has some diesel cars available in the US, and lots of pickup trucks (Ford, Chevy, Dodge) have diesel engines available. Like John said, Volvo and MB had diesel cars at one time here, but I don't know if they still have them as an option or not.
I think the US will start to see more pressure to introduce more diesel models, tho'.... I think it would be a natural for LRNA to bring the diesel, and they'd have, AFAIK, the only diesel SUV in North America.... that'd be nice...
FWIW...
-L |
Andrew Clarke (Aclarke)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 05:21 pm: |
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Passenger vehicles available in the US with diesel (not including pickup trucks), according to autotrader.com:
- Ford Excursion
- Hummer
- Volkswagen Beetle
- Volkswagen Golf
- Volkswagen Jetta
Way to go Volkswagen, at least. I see many diesel Volkswagens around, so I imagine they're making money on them... |
Erik G. Burrows
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 05:43 pm: |
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Can someone explain to me why TD engines are so superior to gasoline engines, other than MPG and toque? |
Clif Ashley (Cta586)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 06:02 pm: |
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The lack of excessive computers and electronics is very appealing as well as waterproofness.
Among many other things... |
John Moore (Jmoore)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 07:30 pm: |
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Yeah, I forgot about VW. They have had diesel here for a long time. Your original question though is what the US thought of Diesel, I think I would like it for reasons noted above, torque, simplicity, fuel consumption, reliability.
However, my wife most likely sides with typical Americans. For example, we're thinking about getting a 2-3 year old Mercedes, and she said she liked the idea as long as it was not a diesel. To her the only difference between gas and diesel is that the diesel smells bad, sounds like a tractor and smokes.
-John |
Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 07:41 pm: |
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Ah, old perceptions are hard to break. I know in 5 years or so I am going to do the diesel conversion. I should have enough pennies by then.
-Chris |
Marty koning
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 07:46 pm: |
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I think the hate for diesels began with the Olds 88 that was offered with a converted gas engine and had very poor reliability. But as times have changed and the technology now available on a diesel, it is almost a no brainer to opt for one if you drive a lot. The VW bug with the TDI was actually more fun to drive and a little faster than the base engine and you still averaged over 40 mpg in the city. There is talk again at Mercedes to begin impoting the diesels to help them comply with the CAFE standards to help improve their model line average mpg. I hope others follow. BMW has several diesels in their line but us Americans still have the unrelenting urge for speed so we get all the HO gas engines. Someday we can have our TD5 Rovers. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 08:19 pm: |
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Mercedes has just announced that they are bringing the oil burners back for 2004 and they are going to be putting it in the M class as well as the S and E class.
in 99 the E class was here in a 2wd only diesel and they got 41mpg highway. they also have the "reactor" exhaust system that adjusted the fuel volume based on heat output. this does away with 99% of the smell.
they use a ZF •••••• ...I wonder if the bolt patern is the same????wouldent that be cool!
this motor also does not have a belt drive in it so it would have advantages over the rover motor |
muskyman
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 08:23 pm: |
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here'sa whole page of the 98/99 new style motors
come on someone with deep pockets dive in and pave the road for the rest of us |
Struan
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 01:12 am: |
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Clif Ashley (Cta586) was talking about "The lack of excessive computers and electronics is very appealing as well as waterproofness." - Ha ha ha ha. Sorry but if thats what you are looking for then DON'T buy a Td5!! They have a computer box under the drivers seat which controls everything. The only way to get such good performance out of a diesel is with an ecu controlling the system. Dont get that box wet or you will not be going home!! The engine stops and thats that until you dry the box out. So it doesnt really matter that you have a snorkel and can wade cos the ecu box is under your backside so that is as deep as u can go. There is a "limp home" function on the box but no one that I know of has ever seen it work and beside I would hate to "limp" at max speed 40km/h all the way from Kenya to the nearest dealership that can handle Td5's - South Africa!!! Oh and if you ever buy one, spend the extra cash and get an extended warrentee - you will need it!! |
Nathan Cooper (Cooper)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 01:24 am: |
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Yeah, The TD5 is brain box dependant, but the 300 TDI is still a great option if you have the $$ and need (want) an engine that is simple,durable and will with proper care definitely out last whatever it's in. |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 01:35 am: |
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Ford announced a while ago that diesel engines were going to become a major part of its plan to improve fuel efficiency in its light truck/suv line up. I read a fairly lengthy article a while back with Bill Ford talking about the negative perception diesel engines have in this country right now and how different the diesel engines of today are. Went on to mention a few possibilities including the fact that there would more than likely be a diesel F150. There was also something about how the time this project would really start taking shape would likely coincide w/ a certain year (i want to say 2004) in which DOT will more than likely approve some new blend of diesel for import. Even if all that is true though I doubt they would ever give us diesel Discos, heck we can't even get a CDL from em. |
Nathan Cooper (Cooper)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 01:46 am: |
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Carter,
Yeah, the perceptions of diesel engines are pretty interesting. Most of the older people I talk to seem to think that diesel engines are great, telling me stories about someone who would leave their diesel such and such running all day during the winter while at work. Or some other story about how tough as nails they are. Most younger people bash diesels however, screaming ozone hole and cancer. but anyway
Have you heard anything about the "new" Powerstroke Diesel that will supposedly fit disco's d90 etc? I Think ECR is where I first saw them- but they had limited info on their site.. |
Garth
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 09:00 am: |
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"Ha ha ha ha. Sorry but if thats what you are looking for then DON'T buy a Td5!! They have a computer box under the drivers seat which controls everything. The only way to get such good performance out of a diesel is with an ecu controlling the system. Dont get that box wet or you will not be going home!!"
Straun,
Unfortunately, the ECU for the TD5 is in the battery box, between the battery and the jack; the ECU for the V8 is under the seat...thats about another 300mm higher
I've owned both a 300TDi and a TD5...the TD5 is more complex and not as frugal, but its a far more refined motor, revs smoother and its acceleration is more like a car with less turbo lag. It won't match a V8 for acceleration, but it will keep up with traffic without difficulties and will do it at 10l/100k (25 miles per US gallon).
In Australia, only about 25% of Disco I's were diesels, over 50% of Disco II's sold are
Garth |
Germ�n R. Gr�ner (Germán)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 01:04 pm: |
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In my opinion, the only reason not to use V8 is from user pointview, more cost.
If acquisitive power is great enough to put this point in in a second plane, then Diesel has no chance.
Example: American Market
I love my TDI 300, but better performances in general terms are V8´s. But in my country V8 is impossible to use(only with GNC).
Germán |
Ross Thoma (Rossthoma)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 06:24 pm: |
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I love diesel!! better fuel economy and lower running temperatures more tork and grunt for less engine BUT you can't be missing those oil changes and top speed is lacking I would not use them in rock climbing situations due to the importance of good internal oil distribution (you don't want to be nose up or down for long periods of time)other than that if you keep in in good condition polution now is much lower. Oh yeah there is also the soot and smell of the fuel.
My $0.02
Ross Thoma |
Chris
| | Posted on Saturday, November 09, 2002 - 03:11 am: |
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Toyota did a Camry diesel for a while and recently won accolades from the EPA (!) for their new diesel. Ford just cancelled a v6 diesel deal with international who build the powerstrokes, including of course in Brazil the current 300 tdi in 2.5 and 2.8 litres
There is a court case continuing where SoCal is trying to deny use of diesels in that region of California.
They last longer but a friend is having traumas with his NAS spec 90 that he converted to tdi/auto power. cam has broken twice and the flexplate just failed. Another does 100 miles a day at 50mpg in his VW
I'd love a tdi, and in fact a TD4 Freelander would make a great commuter vehicle with its 35mpg or so...... |
gordon sitts (Gsitts)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 09, 2002 - 04:11 am: |
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What about the various diesel conversions being done in Europe, I have heard of Isuzu, Perkins and Nissian I think. Does anyone know whats being done, why and of course how successful they have been
Thanks
Gordon |
Marty koning
| | Posted on Saturday, November 09, 2002 - 07:28 pm: |
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If anyone still believes that diesels are not very fast and that the top end is limited follow the link. Very interesting story about a 222 mph diesel pick up
http://www.bankspower.com/
As for the electronic and computer issues, new diesels are loaded with all the stuff a gas engine is to gain performance and decrease emissions. I don't care wheter gas or diesel if the computers get wet you are stranded |
blake
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 02:48 am: |
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A few observations: I test drove a TDI Passat and it felt quick and didn't smell bad and was rated at 50+ MPG. I have a good friend with an older Cummins Dodge with a PowerPack with over 200k mi. and it tows boats and cabovers at elevation with 15+ MPG and bombproof reliability. I work for a Dutch company and on my visits have seen mostly diesels there and models and combinations that never make the U.S. market. Mostly little Euro shitboxes but also Mercedes and Volkswagen diesel campervans and the occasional Rovers. From what I've been told (hearsay), low sulphur fuel availability in the U.S. is limited or nonexistent; kind of a chicken and egg thing that limits what's possible for import. On the other hand, all the Dutch guys give me shit for being interested in diesels and possible conversions. They tell me, 'You live in the land of the fucking V8!' Guys working over here will pool some money to rent a Viper or Vette for the day and burn their money's worth out of the tires. '8.0 liters!', they scream and walk around with a shit eating grin for the rest of the week. In a country with fuel over $2/liter and any displacement over 2.0 liters subject to a 'luxury' tax I can see where they are coming from. I guess you always want what you can't have. |
JESPER
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 09:30 am: |
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I ONCE HAD A TD5 AND FOUND THAT I KEPT GETTING PATAGONIAN TOOTHFISH CAUGHT IN THE INJECTORS. |
Jroc (Jroc)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 10:29 am: |
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Has anyone with a Turbo Diesel engine tried to "juice up" the engine? Add a larger turbo charger, intercooler, computer chip, etc. I'd bet you can get that baby pumping out some more pony's!!! Ditto on the, always want what you can't have! I LOVE my 3.9 v8! Isn't a race car, can't take it swimming, MPG should be measured in feet per gallon, but I LOVE it! I do secretly drool over the 5.2 conversion from RPI. Til then, I love my lil 3.9! |
Matt
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 10:46 am: |
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Talk to East Coast Rover |
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