| Author |
Message |
    
Saralden Guerrero
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2002 - 11:21 pm: | 
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Hi, I was just looking on the net for ovefinch land rover an I sow that they put a chevy 5.7 liter engine on a land rover I wold like to do that to my 95 disco, it has a 3.9l engine with 168K and I want to changed it for a 5.7 chevy engine, how could help my fin out what do i have to do to make this replacement, please help my and do you think is a good idea, thanks
Saralden |
OLIVER CLOTHSOFF (Everythingleaks)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2002 - 11:54 pm: |
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Where did you find this on the web? |
Roger Fastring
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 12:57 am: |
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you asked for opinions, well I think the idea of taking any decent foreign engine out for a small block domestic is ludicrous. It may not leak, but its just not right. There, thats my opinion. If, however, you were swapping in a lil TDI, than you'd be cooking. |
Greg Hirst (Gregh)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 01:47 am: |
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www.overfinch.com
One of the reasons why LR's are desireable OFFROAD vehicles is their low center of gravity due to aluminum engine and heavy axles and frame. Putting a 350 Chevy in will take some fabrication and alot of upgrading of drivetrain components.
Why not sell the disco to somebody who wants it for what it does well and buy a Tahoe with engine probs and plop a Corvette engine in it. It'l cost less, be worth more, and you can drag race/tow heavy things etc. and be happy? |
Paul Schuetz (Schuetz)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 03:23 am: |
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Overfinch is a british co. Why bounce the guy for asking a question, it only makes you seem like a small person. |
Greg Hirst (Gregh)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 04:11 am: |
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Sorry if my response comes off as arrogant-apologies to Saralden.
Overfinch is actually listed as a manufacturer in UK and their vehicles are VERY expensive primarily onroad vehicles with suspensions tuned for road handling.
I've heard of a few RRC's with chevy smallblocks and how they needed upgraded radiators, trans, U-joints, axles etc. but I'm sure it depends on the particular engine used. There was one written up years ago in a 4wheel mag in the mid nineties that was in San Diego(?)area. |
Paul Schuetz (Schuetz)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 04:44 am: |
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I don't mean to sound like an ass myself either, it would be fun to have all that power in a diso though. |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 06:04 am: |
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It is an expensive and unrealistic activity that in the vast majority of cases results in a vehicle unsuited to any reasonable use.
I spent the better part of 20 years wrenching on SBCs. There were too many situations where merely swapping one displacement/MY SBC resulted in compatibility problems. When one does such mild swaps as HP SBCs into many Chevrolet vehicles, stupid things like finding a starter that would fit a specific vehicle/bellhousing/flywheel combination resulted in a long and painful search for the correct starter motor. To be painfully frank, when Chevy went to mixed metric/SAE fasteners and the parts were no longer even visually compatible with those from 1956, the beauty and allure of the SBC was lost and I now drive a Rover and have regained that respect and affection for the beauty and allure of the simplicity in these vehicles.
Where is Perrone when we need him?
Respectfully,
Paul |
perroneford
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 09:42 am: |
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I've seen a few successful swaps into Range Rovers. In one case I have a spreadsheet of itemized costs and labor.
If you want to do this, plan on spending $3-$5k plus the engine costs. If you want it to last and work properly, you'll need to upgrade your cooling and fuel systems.
The SBC is not that much heavier than Rover engine if you get a modern version. If you buy the engine as a package from GM performance parts, or a version built by a respectable engine builder, you can get away from some of the compatibility issues that Paul mentions.
The simple fact is that the Rover drivetrain is unsuited to power that a SBC can develop and making a reliable system will require much re-engineering and system upgrades. I still plan on doing it when my motor dies, but hopefully that is some way off and I'll have another daily driver by then.
-P |
Jake Hartley (Jake)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 10:13 am: |
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That all being said, and also true, Advance Adapters sells the pieces to do this. It uses kit from an Australian company. Seems to be a popular swap down-under. Personally, I will stick with the GM designed, basically American V8 in my Disco. If you want to breath on it there are several ways to go. There is a place called D&D performance in Michigan that can do amazing things to these engines, which are popular in MGB and other small car swaps. Power and torque can be raised to nice levels (sorry Perrone, but your premise that these engines have weak bottom ends is bullshit). A stroker 3.9 will have some good umph to turn those bigger tires and return some top end too. |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 11:05 am: |
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Jake:
I don't think Perrone was commenting on the robust nature of the crankshaft of our trucks, but the maximum horsepower input rating for the ZF transmission as provided stock.
I suspect that the rotating parts of our engines are capable of far more than what they put out stock, but if you do this, what will break next? Axles? CV joints?
To address Perrone's comment, I personally don't see an advantage to doing the swap just to get away from the cost of Rover repair/rebuild parts. In my past experience, it has not been the bearings and gaskets that eat up the dollars, it is the machine work necessary to prepare a higher mileage block and heads to accept the new parts. I once did an engine where the machine shop bill alone was more than $1000 and this was in 1981! Granted, it was near perfect when finshed, but the guy I did the job for is still driving the car (OK, I did swap the engine into another body back in 1995) to this day with more than 100K since the rebuild and the engine was 28 years old when I did it in 1981 and had 215K on it then. The only work it has needed since the rebuild was to have a bolt on the oil filter housing replaced that was too long and allowed oil to leak (my rebuilds do not leak), and after that, merely regular oil changes and tune-ups. |
Jake Hartley (Jake)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 11:34 am: |
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Paul:
Agreed. I actually posted that before Peronne had his posting up. I was referring to previous discussions regarding Rover V8 bottom ends. I don't think a ZF to SBC would be a good match either. In fact, I think that the kits made by Mark's (AUS) and sold by Advance Adptrs uses a GM auto transmission. Good machine work is the key to long life. I made many SBC drag strip engines, reving up to 8 grand and beyond and if you skimped on the machineing, it usually only went down the track once, if at all. |
adtoolco
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 11:43 am: |
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This is what I'm going to do... RPI sells a complete 4.6 short block(crank, rods, pistons, etc.) for 1400 Lbs. ($2300 american). I am going to swap this with my current 4.0 short block, get my heads and intake ported and polished, headers, free flow exaust, torqier cam, and neccessary chipping. My D2 will now have an attractive 240-250 ponies and close to 300 ft/lbs. of torque. Very nice. Its gonna cost... I figure at least $5 large. but its been done, no other major mods needed, and all the ancillaries are swapable.
IMHO best bang for your buck and will be most reliable/offroadable.
-Chris |
muskyman
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 11:45 am: |
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I think everybody underestamates the ZF ••••••
I have seen MB's with turbo's making a real 400hp running stock ZF's |
Ange_dev
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 11:46 am: |
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Well, for the look of it, ill prefer the rebuilding of my 3.9, and see what can I get in Rpi to boost up some horsepower on the engine, i just got this book today from a friend of mind, its Tuning Rover V8 Engines By David Hardcastle. I�m reading it and it has a lot of trick to prepare a nice responsive engine out of the 3.9 for the disco, thanks a lot and IL put pics of the process soon.
Saralden |
perroneford
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 12:19 pm: |
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Musky,
If you speak to ZF, you'll find that they recommend no more than 240 HP through the ZF •••••• installed in the RR Classic. There were indeed improvements on that ••••••, but I don't have any figures for those models. This is not to say the ZF won't handle more power, but when we start talking about $3k+ parts on MY truck, I'll follow the manufacturers recommendations each time.
-P |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 12:57 pm: |
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Musky:
I understand that ZF does make trannies that will withstand just about anything you throw at it, but I don't think a stock Rover •••••• is up to the task.
Recently one evening while wasting otherwise perfectly good time, I watched a show on discovery about Monster trucks. Imagine my surprise when I noticed the decal on the rear axle housing on one of the trucks... That familiar ZF symbol! Apparently, they also make heavy-duty off-road equipment too. The axle looked like it was from an earthmover or some such.
Paul |
Milan (Milan)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 02:56 pm: |
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What does a stock 350 make for HP? 225? 230? I think that unless you jiuce it up, it will do just fine in front of the ZF. I also considerd doing a 305 swap into my disco when I was pissed off at it. The 305 is milder and more economical, yet it should have more power than the 4.0 liter. |
Greg Hirst (Gregh)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 04:35 pm: |
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There are a ton of different ZF trans (heavy equipt, marine, etc.) including several types of 4HP22 for different applications (Volvo, BMW, BMW diesel as used in '84 Lincoln, etc) at www.ZF.com.
BTW-has anyone tried using that BMW diesel from an '84 Lincoln or from a BMW 524td into a Rover? Just curious.
also BTW-(this thread will now go on indefinitely-hehe)I got an email back from "Martin Vogel" at ZF re my question on using synthetic ATF in 4HP22 and he referred me back to the approved lubricant list on their website which does NOT list any synthetics for use in 4HP22 or 24. His stated reason for not using anything not on the list was "due to the calibration of your trans". I guess I'm livin' on luck with Mobil 1 ATF in my trans!
Let the dead horse beating begin!! |
muskyman
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 11:40 pm: |
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i'm sure what he is refering to is the modulator
when you run synthetic you have to adjust the modulator or the slightly thinner synthetic atf will make the trans shift harder then it should.
actually I have seen guys trying to get faster shifts outa ZF's go to the synthetic and not adjust the modulator without any failures
as far as the rated hp thats all just shit from a company that dosent want to be liable when you bolt a big block to there •••••• without paying them to engineer it.
I dont believe that you would have any problem putting alot more power threw a ZF as long as you add the needed cooling. if you were to surpass the cooling limits that the current configuration give you yes it would fail everytime |
OLIVER CLOTHSOFF (Everythingleaks)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 11:55 pm: |
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If HP was not a problem then why would Land Rover go thru the trouble to install 2 different trans units in the 95-02 RR. The 4.0L RR got the 4HP22 and the 4.6L RR got the 4HP24 trans. The 03 Disco also has the 4HP24 behind the 4.6L.
Another tip if anyone is thinking about a swap is that the driveline mounts in the 03 Disco had to be moved back due to the added length of the 4HP24. May want to keep this in mind if you come across that junk yard deal that seems too good to be true |
muskyman
| | Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 12:09 am: |
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well you are correct that the difference between them is imput torque rating
the 22= 340nm
the 24= 450nm
so yes upgrading to the 24 would be agood idea but I'd say as long as you keep the 22 cool it would be fine. |
adtoolco
| | Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 09:40 am: |
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From what my buddy tells me(He is a landrover tech) the only difference in the two trans is the "A-Clutch" is a little longer in the 24 vs. the 22. So swapping the clutch assembly is all you need to do.
-Chris |
muskyman
| | Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 10:18 am: |
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chris I would believe that, there is a super upgraded clutch you can get for ZF's that RENTECH runs in there turbo'd MB's.
they had a 700hp 300e back a dozen years ago that ran 0-60 in under 5sec with a ZF auto box! i doubt that a stock SBC would brake a •••••• that can handle that kinda power |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 10:54 am: |
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SBCs are (or should I say used to be) very cheap to make very powerful, but I think 700 HP from a SBC would be a difficult thing to achieve and still be able to drive ont he street.
350 HP stock certainly wasn't unheard of, but 700! WOW!
In Germany, driving on the Autobahn, I gained a new respect for Alois Rolf as it seemed every time I saw something in the rearview mirror, it was past me quickly! Surprisingly, the seemingly fastest vehicles were big black Benz' hugging the ground and silently whooshing past. Yes, I learned to get out of the left lane-the Golf we rented would go 160 Kmh, but it took most of the way from Munchen to Hamburg to get it up that fast!
Paul |
muskyman
| | Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 12:07 pm: |
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Paul,
I had the good fortune to drive a Rentech 300E that was rated by them at 375HP back in my autocrossing days and it was a rocket!,at the time I had a supercharged BMW325is and it mad my car seem slow even though mine had 300HP and weighed 1000lbs less.
this was a guy I knew very well and I worked on his car many times and he had a stock ZF in it ...no fancy anything other then the motor and suspension and the •••••• held up fine . it would spin the tires changing gears.
I have a 89 300E right now with a ZF in it. I have the modulator dialed in so it shifts hard and at 175,000 miles it still shifts better and smarter then any other auto box on the market. the fact is ZF makes great stuff. |
Matt
| | Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 12:26 pm: |
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How about a new Tdi. Stay Rover and yu get a great, long-lasting engine. |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 12:56 pm: |
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Musky:
My last fender flapper was a '71 Nova with a 327, solid lifter cam, big pistons, and an Edelbrock Cross-Ram with two Holley 650 vacuum secondary carburetors. All was fine until I decided I needed 5.13 gears and no rubber in the drivetrain except the tires-which I never really had enough money to buy good ones!
The car had two seats and not much more interior (The girls loved it more than my Disco!).
No shit, I could pull the wheels in all four gears with my street tires. With slicks, it was scary when it returned to earth, you never knew which way it would go after launching. One night, I missed a shift into third gear... I had dialed in with a 9.310 time and broke out with 9.309.
The next day, when I corked the headers back up and put the street tires on it, upon backing out of the garage, I had this awful noise/vibration/sensation/sinking feeling inthe pit of my stomach. Pulled the plug on the rear end (1957 Chevy Eaton LSD) to find eight teeth missing from the ring gear. To remove the axles from the housing, the housing was chained to a fence and the axle chained to my dad's pick-up truck and I will leave the rest to your imagination. When the axle finally let go, it slid out from under the truck and skidded nearly two blocks down the deserted street! I later found out I had bent the axle housing and most of the intake valves.
That car was so much fun! Except every cop in town recognized it, I was once arrested three times in the same night for racing and each time, I was winning and stopped and was told to wait where I was-yeah, right!
Never had any idea how much horsepower it put out, but it must have been a few. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 03:04 pm: |
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Paul,
growing up in milwaukee I came across many old rusty chevy's that would run scarry fast times.
its pretty amazing what you could get outa those little blocks with the right combination of parts
302 Z28 motors are a good example there where guys getting over 500hp outa them with the cross rams and some open header sidepipes.
with these disco's I think a little bit of old fashioned hot rodding could do them some good, I have often thought of moving my registration to northern wisconsin where there are no emmisions and then pitching the injection and exhaust in favor of headers,cam and a well set up rochester.
the t-bucket crowd used to get 300hp outa the buick 225 and that was in the early 1960's
just think of how simple a vehicle you could have
thom |
Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 09:39 pm: |
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I can't wait to do my engine. I really want to do it for onroad purposes...(I'm a gearhead at heart) but i don't think it would hurt me offroad. Whats the old saying? "There is no replacement for displacement"
-Chris |
Norm
| | Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 10:04 pm: |
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Why not just drop in an RPi 4.6 Rover motor with a Tornado chip? You may spend a little more money up front, but you'll save yourself TONS of time and aggravation from trying to "make fit" a Chevy motor.
The 4.6 has a lot more guts than the 3.9 or 4.0 -- more than adequate off road or on -- and it just bolts in.
---Normorsch2 |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 12:34 pm: |
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Norm, did you just win a lottery?
"just drop an RPi 4.6..." ROTFL
Muskyman, is it the first time i see a name at the bottom of your post?
peter |
thom mathie (Muskyman)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 12:37 pm: |
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peter,
i even registered!!!!!
thom |
angel_dev
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 07:57 pm: |
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Norm I don�t now if you have noticed, but the rpi 4.6 its a little expensive, I prefer rebuilding my 3.9 and maybe change the piston to get it to the 4.2, I�m steal finding a lot of trick in the Tuning Rover V8 Engines Book sow I figured getting at least 270hp its ok out of my engine, thanks a lot for the info.
P.S. i bought the jacobs high preformance ignition system with the C-4 coils, the +4 bosh sparks and the high preformance cables and that was a real change for my engine, like it runs a lot smuther and it haves better response.
Saralden |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:02 pm: |
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Saralden,
your engine won't run smuth for long with bosch platinum 4 plugs.
peter |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:06 pm: |
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Saralden
how are you triggering the Jacobs, are you using the secondary trigger? |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:15 pm: |
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you can use your stock ignition output to trigger Jacobs or MSD box, in the same way as using the points output (on the MSD, there is a separate input, likely, with a pull-up resistor to +12V)
peter |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:23 pm: |
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well peter the jacobs will trigger with either a spike wave or a square wave .
but after 4 hours sitting on the dyno we could not get the disco to run the jacobs with out intermiteant misses.
i have run jacobs on anumber of vehicles and think the world of them but my 94 would not run it flawless so I never got the dyno comparison numbers I was looking for |
Keith Kreutzer (Revor)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:40 pm: |
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Start with a motor... Then the ••••••... Well the LT230 with last through everything... Now it's axles... HD 24's nah won't handle the power...30 spline or better is required... Trust me if you don't want to turn your Disco into a year long (or longer) money pit stick to the basics build/rebuild what you have and drive it! Beats watching it sit in the shop waiting for funding to continue.... |
Norm
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:50 pm: |
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Guys,
Time = $$$$. You gotta pay to play, but the 4.6 is an outstanding motor.
True, you can buy a more powerful Chevy 350 for a lot less than an RPi Rover 4.6, but you'll spend A LOT of time, money and aggravation changing nearly every part associated with the motor (not to mention the front suspension and probably the transmission, transfer case, etc., etc., etc.) to "make fit" the Chevy motor in a Rover.
The beauty of the 4.6 is that it literally just bolts in and the chip just plugs in with minor adjustments to the air/fuel system. You're talking a couple of days at most to pull your old engine and swap it for a 4.6. With all the "make fit" in a Chevy adaption, it'll take months.
As far as souping up a 3.9, you may need to cross-bolt the main bearings for strength to handle the increased power. I think RPi also sells a main bearing kit that will help.
---Norm |
Angel_dev
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 08:51 pm: |
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Peter
you think its bad for the engine the platinium 4 plugs, why?
Saralden |
ChevyRover
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 09:52 am: |
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I think a Chevy swap might be a good idea, actually. The Rover (Buick) V8 is crapola and expensive to rebuild and maintain. A Chevy mill will be enough cheaper to pay for most of the conversion parts, and then he'll have a better and more reliable engine and cheaper to fix. The weight is not a problem -- the TDI mill weighs 200 pounds more than the V8. |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 12:38 pm: |
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Saralden,
Bosch platinum plugs have tiny center electrodes. if your engine tends to burn even a little oil (which is likely if it has more than 100k on it), they will foul up, with resulting crappy idle and lost low end torque.
i hate to admit to following the hype and buying a set of 8 for my jeep. they went to trash in less than a week. not to say that Champion's the next best thing after sliced bread, but their Truck plugs are hard to beat.
peter |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 01:37 pm: |
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Peter:
I have always used the least expensive spark plugs assuming they were inexpensive and consumable. I've been using Autolites on my Disco and love them! Cheap, available anywhere and long lasting.
Paul
Original CB |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 07:00 pm: |
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try using cheap plugs opened up to 0.06" with a good ignition box/coil/wires on an oil-burning engine.
they expire weekly.
peter |
Shane
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 07:19 pm: |
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why would you gap the plug at 0.06"?
Is this for your rover?
I'e run top of the line MSD stuff in a street car and they still only reccomend .035-.040".
I've had the bosch +4 for 10k miles(in a rover) and they still work great. I had champions for the 10k before that and there was a noticable difference(for the better) when I changed.
I hear lots of negative chat about the +4's.
I guess I'll have to learn the hard way. |
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