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brain
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:43 pm: | 
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I am new to this so bear with me. I just bought a D2 with a Warn 9000 XD winch. I have never had a winch before and should have gotten a lession. How do you get it from engaged to disengaged (free-spool)? The handle turns a little then stops. What do I need to do? |
Kyle
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:45 pm: |
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Release some tension on the cable before you try to free spool it..
Kyle |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:46 pm: |
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I suggest you visit the warn website, they have a good article on how to operate it and how do use it safely. Then go over to www.bb4wa.com and scour around for any articles he has on winching. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:50 pm: |
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so from the deep caldrons Kyle appears
so is this a real person or are you trying to start a winch issue here?
if the thread was at 196 or something would there be a "pitch the little smoker"
MM |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 03:57 pm: |
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Hey Kyle! Did you get an e-mail from me? I didn't know if I had offended you, asked a question that shouldn't have been asked, or if your e-mail wasn't working.
Peace,
Paul
Oh yeah,
Pitch the little smoker and buy a real winch! Is that better Musky? |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 04:14 pm: |
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lol...thats it someone kick over a bar stool and spill some beer! this place needs some contROVERcy |
Kyle
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:11 pm: |
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Yes well , the poor guy hasnt even gotten to the point where he finds out that its a smoker... He will though........ Might be better just to leave that nice cable on the drum....
Kyle |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:18 pm: |
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you know those little warns look much cooler when there are perfectly wrapped with a brand new cable
yea discover alaska 125ft at a time...it will only take the rest of your life |
Brian
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:37 pm: |
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Thanks for the info, I take it the tought is the the Warn is a piece of shit. What is good? |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:46 pm: |
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anything other then a hydraulic winch is just crap
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.brian go HERE you will understand |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:48 pm: |
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sorry link missed the target...there are 520 pages under winch in keyword search |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:50 pm: |
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it will do okay, dont worry about it
just dont expect it to be an all day puller & when you do ask it to pull dont ask it to do too much,,,
my finger smells so i'll just stay out of the rest
rd |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:52 pm: |
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Kyle
any idea what your winch body without the motor or cable weighs in at?
thom |
Kyle
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 06:25 pm: |
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Hmmm , I would say a 12 is right around 100 and if you can find one of the old high speed narrow 8Ks , probably around 50 or so (Aluminum drum and you can gear it to be a 12) Downfall is that its a very narrow drum and doesnt hold the same amount of cable..
Kyle |
Kyle
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 06:26 pm: |
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Paul I dont think I got the mail. Hit me again.
Kyle |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 06:50 pm: |
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Well muskyman, my winch is better than yours cause mine can run even when the engine isn't . There, that should get it going. |
Brian
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 07:11 pm: |
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I am going to keep what I have but if it shits the bed on me what is a good electric replacement? How much modification to the grill and SG bumper would have to be done if I go hydrolic? |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 07:19 pm: |
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brian, when it shits the bed, send it my way.
peter |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 09:55 pm: |
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kyle
one of my buddies wants a big hydraulic has a f350 on 38" . I'm thinking going with a big ramsey with a dan foss shortie pump would be pretty rockin. he already has all the hydraulics running a salt spreader and drag plow so all I need to do is the winch and hoses. I think the big worm gear would be better matched to such a huge truck then the MM. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:00 pm: |
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brian,
does that Warn have 24volt wiring instructions?
24volt will let the motor run cooler and last longer, not all can be run at 24 or 36 volts but it worth a look.
otherwize just dont overload it and when its lugging down stop and double the line |
Pugsly (Pugsly)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:14 pm: |
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Okay, into the fray with my .02..
Yeah - hydraulic winches are so great that some organizations won't let you ride/compete with them because of liability concerns.
And having a winch that is dependent on the engine running is just what you need to get you out of a creek when you've stalled!
[How's that?] |
Pugsly (Pugsly)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:15 pm: |
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Brian -
don't listen to the rabble rousers, your Warn will do just fine for you. Just don't spool out under power, release the clutch and pull it out. The Warns tend to overheat when you spool out under power. |
Milan (Milan)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 11:27 pm: |
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Warns spool out under power just fine. Just not under load. Or even under load if you don't do the stop'n-go routine. That's when the brake will heat up.
Just adding fuel to the discussion. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 11:31 pm: |
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I can always tell what kinda spots a guy gets into by the type of winch he says he can get away with.
if you do a buncha mud running the little smokers show themselves alot sooner.
hell if all you did was right tipped vehicles and pulled yourself 10 feet when your high centered you could get by with a little smoker for a good long time |
Pugsly (Pugsly)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 12:46 am: |
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I guess I'm just not that into using my winch as the primary method of moving down the trail! |
muskyman
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 12:57 am: |
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who said primary method of moving down the trail?
its all about ease of extraction
last weekend I sunk my scout on 35" tires to the headlights in a thick black mud sippy hole. pulled out my winch 50 ft or so and strapped it to a tree and pulled the truck in 1 pull loose and out moving a huge pile of mud most the way with it. the winch never hesitated once. try that with a little smoker and it dosent even break the truck loose. and even double lined most little smokers would have needed a half dozen cool down cycles to finnish that pull.
so what would your strategie have been Pugsly? |
Milan (Milan)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 11:00 am: |
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"I can always tell what kinda spots a guy gets into by the type of winch he says he can get away with.
if you do a buncha mud running the little smokers show themselves alot sooner.
hell if all you did was right tipped vehicles and pulled yourself 10 feet when your high centered you could get by with a little smoker for a good long time
"
True. For example I do mostly trail running and get our rigs out of near rolls, right them after flops and pull them high centered situations. We also pull dead rigs over rock ledges and out of creeks/rivers. Pulling heavy dead rigs over obstacles seems to be as hard on winches as mud sucking one down.
"last weekend I sunk my scout on 35" tires to the headlights in a thick black mud sippy hole. pulled out my winch 50 ft or so and strapped it to a tree and pulled the truck in 1 pull loose and out moving a huge pile of mud most the way with it. the winch never hesitated once. try that with a little smoker and it dosent even break the truck loose. and even double lined most little smokers would have needed a half dozen cool down cycles to finnish that pull.
"
That's what we used to do. But I found it harder on all the other equipment than the winch. The winch had to labor more and yes sometimes one was not enough but we killed way many more alternators, starters, clutches, throwout bearings, main bearings, engines and electricals inside the vehicle than winches. Also, stalling vehicle in mud seems to be as common as during river crossings. When the rig stalls and won't restart, what is your strategy then, Musky? |
muskyman
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 12:42 pm: |
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sorry my rig dosent have a stalling problem milan
the damn thing could idle through a nuclear blast!
I have spent a buncha time setting it up to avoid the dreaded dead in the mud thing.
proper skid sheilds mud baffles and a mechanical high idle switch keep it running no problem even in mud the viscosity of concrete. the truck makes about 300ft lbs of torque off idle so stalling it is pretty tough |
Peter Carey (Pcarey)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 08:00 pm: |
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Quote:who said primary method of moving down the trail?
Uhhh.....you did.
Quote:yea discover alaska 125ft at a time...it will only take the rest of your life
I don't care what winch anyone uses, just had to call you on forgetting what you wrote.
pwc |
Milan (Milan)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 11:03 pm: |
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"sorry my rig dosent have a stalling problem milan
the damn thing could idle through a nuclear blast!
I have spent a buncha time setting it up to avoid the dreaded dead in the mud thing.
proper skid sheilds mud baffles and a mechanical high idle switch keep it running no problem even in mud the viscosity of concrete. the truck makes about 300ft lbs of torque off idle so stalling it is pretty tough
"
Hehehe. Sound like quite a beast. You have to set it up for mud properly, that's for sure. We avoid mud now, but it's simply not possible so we still prep for it. We also seem to stall mostly due to driver error but then someties, when deep enough, you may not be quite sure whether to hit that starter or not. Then again, we have measly 180 hp at the crank. V8 it ain't! |
RJ Clayton (Tozovr)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 09:56 am: |
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Stuk disco
At first, being newer to the board I didn't understand what the "Lil Smoker" tag meant...gotcha now...In that pic, we had to use a Warn 9500hs. George was hung up and high centered. The winch alone wouldn't move him (Alex, guy with the winch) was about 45' away. We had to use the snatch block before the winch even THOUGHT about moving that pig.
RJ |
Milan (Milan)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 10:17 am: |
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The one thing I don't understand is why is everyone surprised that it is possible to "smoke" on of the planetary winches. If you stall it, get off the switch and double up the line or use another winch. Obviously your vehicle is stuck so that the load is higher than the winch can handle. If you smoke it every time out, guess what. You bought a winch that's too small for your application. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 10:40 am: |
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Yea Milan thats the truth,close to stall you should stop and rerig your pull that will go a long way to getting a winch to last. but that still doesent address the fact that these "lil smokers" are way over rated for the job
look at kyle. He has one of the biggest electrics made. he's building his own bumpers so he could have built around anything he wanted but yet he jumped over all the "lil smokers" and got a real winch.
I spent years burning up old 8274 warns . I went from 12volts to 24volts to 36volt snow plow motors they still had a duty cycle that was a joke when you were looking at having to pull just one truck a 150 feet outa some cattails and bog water.
thats why I went hydraulic, my first hydraulic was a ramsey 20k off the top of a garbage truck it was unstoppable but heavy as hell. most likely helping getting me stuck more then I would have liked. even on 40" tires and 500hp I couldent keep the front of the truck floating ontop.
so when I built my scout having a 70lb hydraulic winch was a dream come true. thats why I went with mile marker. and thats why I'm tucking one into the nose of my disco as well. all that "its allready a heavy truck" shit guys say about disco's is just nuts keeping the front of a disco from getting to heavy is worthwhile IMO. |
Kyle
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 10:42 am: |
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That truck isnt even really stuck. Bury it up to the headlights in mud and see what you get. Milan , you can keep talking and talking but the little planetary winches are too freaking small for these trucks. Ofcourse if you want to baby that bitch along its whole life it will get the job done , but who wants to deal with that shit ? Worying about blocks and run times and length of cable , blah blah blah. I wanna just hook that bitch , hit the button , and be done with it....
We have all heard the stories here about people being stuck for hours and having to get help and all that good shit. Why keep fighting the "Good fight" over the little smokers just to end up in that situation one day ?
Musky and I have argued over all kindsa shit here over the years but I can never argue that the guy doesnt show the classic signs of someone that has been running around off road long enough to know which equipment will let you down in a big way.
I guess you buy the marketing hype RJ ? You think those little bastards pull 9K ? How bout the stupor winch 9K that advertises its stall at 11.9 ? They rate its stall just as high as they rate the stall on their husky which is a 10K and a worm gear ? Figure that out would ya... I have used em both and can tell ya that they just dont pull hard at all definately not 11.9 before stalling.... Unless the RE stalls at someting way above that cause I have moved things on the 4th wrap that those woulldnt do on the first.
Kyle |
muskyman
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 10:50 am: |
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shit dude you looking over my should as I type?... |
Kyle
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 11:00 am: |
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Musky , you know what does this. There are two groups that use the little planetaries still. The ones that buy the marketing hype and the ones that have something to gain from it. (IE: free shit)
The disco can actually use more weight on the nose. It helps the front paws on climbs..
Kyle |
muskyman
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 11:35 am: |
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Kyle,
hey I agree, just look in all the mag's every article no matter what its about there is always a brandy new Warn mounted on it. and never is there a bar or brace or winch bumper or anything in the way of you seeing that winch . the damned things are just bottom bolted to keep them from falling off during the photo shoot.
thats intresting about the weight on the nose for climbs? that would make sence with the heavy tail end from a weight transfer stand point. we used to fill bumpers full of concrete ages ago to keep the nose down and digging instead of floating. then when everybody started floating by you with big power and better tires, building light and floaty was in. Now everybody wants to be flexy floaty geared and locked. man help me I cant keep up?
but for the wheeling you seam to do on very tacticle trails at low controlled speeds and hauling huge loads getting weight in front of that front axel makes alot of sence.
by the way the high speed blast across the desert in the rubicon clip is awsome, so I know you drive fast as well.
thom |
Lil Smoker
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 11:40 am: |
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I think I am probably getting a Mile Marker. I know it won't work if the truck is stalled. But if the truck won't run anyway, what's the point of recovering it? You're gonna need help if the truck won't run, whether you're in the middle of the stream or on the bank.
Looks like hydraulic is the way to go, it's not even more expensive. Plus you save weight and money on the second battery and charge splitter. |
RJ Clayton (Tozovr)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 12:12 pm: |
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Kyle, I know the "9k" is just on a first turn pull, no worries...George wasn't as much stuck as he was hooked on the rocks. Similar to a suction situation in the muck. I wasn't surprised we needed the snatchblock at all. Just threw the picture up so folks couls see that even in "easy" situations, more pull is often needed.
I think the milemarker is a fine unit...I have an old Ramsey...errr, well had actually, it just shit the bed. IKt was free so it's passing isn'tthat hard to bear...lots of thought will be put into it...
rj |
Kyle
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 12:26 pm: |
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Well if it was hooked on a rock its nothing like suction in the mud. If it was hooked on a rock more winch wasnt needed. Some highlifting was to clear it of the obstacle. You dont just winch the poor bastad acrost the rock... Thats gotta hurt.....
The sad part is Musky is that is all the two Discos had with about a 1/2 mile head start....lol
Kyle |
Eric N (Grnrvr)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 12:28 pm: |
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"High speed run" in a Disco?? Did it fall off a cliff some where?? |
Kyle
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 12:36 pm: |
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I think we could only get up to around 70 or so in that blast.... I was half asleep so cant remember real well. I was , however , awake enough to know that KMs truck smoked me.... Musta been the wax job he has on his.... (Cali boys)
Kyle |
Milan (Milan)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 01:06 pm: |
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Well dudes,
If you read all my winch related posts on all the threads you will realize that I always say one thing. Buy the winch that fits the application and buy the biggest in that range. That way there ain't no smoking going on.
On my TJ the 9000lb smoker does just fine and it gets near stall only if it's like Kyle says "up to the head lights" in mud. It only truly stalls trying to pull bigger trucks out of their stuck. Guess what? That does not bother me one bit because as far as I'm concerned, THEY should have the bigger winch.
The Disco weighs 1000lbs more. So guess what? It will require a bigger winch. Now, my Disco is only 4500 lbs or so, so a 9000lb smoker should do, but given that I find it adequate for a 1000 lbs lighter vehicle, I'd say I would really like to put a Ramsey worm gear 10K or 12K winch on there. Make sense?
Will I ever use a hydraulic or PTO? Gladly. When I can afford one and only with an electric mounted on the opposite end as a backup for when the "non-smoker" becomes useless after the truck stalls.
What's my point? Planetaries are smokers only when used improperly. You have to know what they are, how they work and what they can or cannot do before you get one. I may give one a try on a Disco but would I expect it to work under the heaviest loads? Not unless it's the 12K or 15K "smoker".
Get it now?
P.S. As to the weight on the front, I find my TJ too light in the front for the climbs. But rather than putting a bigger bumper on, I'll put a heavier winch on there. But there is such a thing as too much weight as musky described. |
Milan (Milan)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 01:09 pm: |
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"... But if the truck won't run anyway, what's the point of recovering it? You're gonna need help if the truck won't run, whether you're in the middle of the stream or on the bank.
"
I disagree. When it stalls and you're in the river/stream you wanna get out ASAP. Otherwise things can get really expensive. |
RJ Clayton (Tozovr)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 01:25 pm: |
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Stuck in the rocks...as in rock kinda poking up everywhere. You're right, the hi-lift would have been perfect...if we could have used it on the bumper (front ARB or Rear stock.) The rails weren't an option as there were no safe places for the base...all very off camber.
It did hurt, such are the trials and tribulations of bringing a stock height disco through some tough spots.
Of course the suction from mud is not the same as the resistance from being high centered or hung up, but they are similar in that you are not merely winching the dead weight of the Disco.
RJ |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 10:42 pm: |
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Kyle, you forgot a few on your list of who still uses small planetary winches: The guys who can't afford to go out and buy a larger ones and the guys who want a little bit of security but don't feel they will ever need more than a "little smoker" and don't mind waiting around/digging with a shovel when it stalls. I got a 9K warn just because I could afford it and it pulls more than nothing at all, I have no grand illusions of it doing a whole hell of a lot, though it has pulled me out of mud up to the headlights once (I chalk this more up to luck as I was waiting for the thing to stall the whole time and I'm not about to cross my fingers and hope it will do it again). I would love to have a big 15K electric or a hydraulic but it just isn't practical for me at the time, I know I run a big risk of it craping out on me but thats why I always bring a bunch of water, some food, a sleeping bag, a shovel, and a high-lift. I think the little smokers have their place but guys still shouldn't go around saying that they can't imagine ever needing anything larger because I think I know of a few places that could prove that wrong pretty quickly. |
Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp)
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 09:19 am: |
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Lil Smoker: The Milemarkers, using the LR ps pump, are not that strong. Mine has stalled on some pulls that I thought wouldn't be that tough. So if you want the winch to be effective you still have to shell out some $ to get it to work properly. Any way you look at it, you'll have to at least get a new ps pump and relief valve or the PTO setup. I'm still debating. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 10:43 am: |
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mike,
yes the ZF pump is a little weak to run the milemarker. there are some things you could do such as putting a smaller driven motor on the winch its self. Drew at milemarker would be a good person to work with trying to sort this out.
the ZF pump not only puts out lower then desirable pressure it also has pretty low flow as well. flow gets you speed, pressure gets you pull
I think that the pto option is ok but i think a saginaw 125/300 conversion makes more sence. AGR told me that they have gone through some rover steering gears and they see no reason that the steering gear couldent take the higher pressure of the saginaw. I run my milemarker with a saginaw 125 that I have shimmed under the relief spring to increase opporating pressure as well as have openning up the output orafice to increase flow for really fast speed. you can go here to see how to do it.
volvo has used saginaw pumps with ZF steering gears so this really isnt a huge leap |
Lil Smoker
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 09:07 am: |
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So, if you buy a Mile Marker, and decide to shell out for the separate pump, which is the best one and how much does it cost? |
RJ Clayton (Tozovr)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 08:10 pm: |
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Carter, one of the other plusses to the electric is that if you're in the backcountry and you end up on your side, you can use the winch to right yourself....but agian, how often (percentage wise...) might you end up on your side. I spend a lot of time in the sticks here in NH (from Pittsburg to Intervale) and while the wheeling isn't insane, if something went wrong, what would I want? I've had the electric, but it has recently died a horrible death....now I have more options...
RJ |
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