What the HELL is WRONG????

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Author Message   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 08:16 pm:    This past weekend I went from completely stock to 5 new Pirelli Scorpions & OME 751/781's, no shocks yet. 30 minutes ago I went offroad for the first time with the new setup, I went to my little neighborhood trail, and struggled worse than I ever had before on stock stuff. One hill at about 45 degrees, I couldn't even make it up, when I had done it before without even spinning tires. Is it... A) Something wasn't locking in my center diff like it should (unlikely, because I heard no funny sounds)? B) The new springs are too stiff and didn't allow wheel stuffage, and flex like before, thus loosing contact and traction easier? C) I haven't yet replaced shocks, so they are too short and I don't have the drop that I should and would with longer shocks, once again causing e to loose traction? D) A combination of B & C? E) I am just crazy and the trail has changed a bit, too little for the naked eye, but enough to keep me from going like I used to? F) My tires suck worse than my stock michilens (no way...right?)? I am very disappointed in the performance today, so maybe you experienced wheelers can help lift my spirits. Thanks   Craig M. Highland (Shortbus) Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 08:19 pm:    Option 'F' for sure.. Craig   94Rover Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 08:25 pm:    Yep, choice F for sure-   Mike B. Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:09 pm:    Yep. F. for sure. Try disconnecting your rear anti-sway bar and lowering your tire pressure. It will make a lot of difference. Also try it with the center diff unlocked and then locked. You obviously have found a good place to practice. Enjoy it. Thanks, Mike B.   Brian Jackson (Nerover) Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:10 pm:    Yeah, the only time I've ever seen a Rover on Scorpions,,,was a RR at Roverfest hooked up to my rear hitch getting towed up a hill. It wouldn't go anywhere. The stock XPC's are suprisingly good offroad. Brian   Mike B. Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:11 pm:    The stock XPCs were custom made for Land Rover by Michelin. They are a pretty good all-around tire. They are good in sand and dirt. I've heard that they are OK in the snow too. They just suck in the mud. Thanks, Mike B.   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:16 pm:    Well... SHIT The tread looks a lot more agressive than those michelins, sure fooled me. The tire looks damn good though, I guess I will just have a sissy BITCH ride for another 40,000 miles. At least I wont tear shit up from offroading, maybe save a little money and head ache in the process. Shit   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:18 pm:    Did I mention.... Well, SHIT.   Neal G. Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 11:04 pm:    I've had scorpions on my truck for about 25k miles. They are not a bad tire. The only problem is that they wear faster than Michelins. (but they cost about 1/3 the price) They are also the only other tire that I've been able to find that are H rated. I've been pretty happy with them with the exception in mud. Like you, I went to my favorite local trail an got stuck. They are great in dirt, rocks, better in snow and very safe and smooth at high speeds. The only thing that sucks about them is that they don't clean off mud very well. Perhaps the conditions were differnet when you compared.   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 11:31 pm:    It was dry rocky/gravel/sandy terrain. Infact here is a picture of the hill I couldn't make. Of course this day I made it with my stock ride.   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 11:31 pm:    This is gonna come across wrong, and I don't mean for it to, but at risk of it anyway.... http://www.expeditionexchange.com/discus/messages/2/505.html?1012074925 I could find only a couple of people who even came close to thinking about the Pirelli in that thread, and it wasn't their first choice even then. Lots of people kept coming up with other good tires to choose from... I think, according to that thread, the BFG won by a landslide, cost consideration included. I really feel for you, actually.... I've gone one way with something before SO many times only to quickly learn that another choice would have been better. And, there are always other dictating factors, too.... money isn't the least of mine either. But, quality is someplace where, IMHO, you really shouldn't skimp on.... I suppose you can chalk this one up to experience, and plan for your next set. Save a little towards them, and hopefully it won't be so bad when the time comes to buy. Anyway, I really am afraid that this will be like rubbing salt in a wound, and I don't really mean it that way. I sincerely wish you the best o' luck.... -L   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 11:39 pm:    I know, I know. I was hoping someone wouldn't remember that thread. Hey, like I said, they look awsome, so I suppose they could get me laid. What is better, getting laid, or breaking a diff on the trail. I couldn't tell you because I don't remember getting laid very well, and I have never broken a diff, not much experience with either Well... SHIT.   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 11:47 pm:    LOL.... Sorry I dug at it then.... Hey, here it is Valentines', and I'm here on the computer instead of out with the wife. 'Course, she's 8 3/4 months pregnant at the moment, and ready to go into labor at any moment, so..... guess I have an excuse, eh? LOL..... Anyway.... maybe you'll at least find some cutie who thinks they look tough, and'll go out w/ ya... Here's to hopin'.... -L   KJ Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 12:45 am:    William said: "What is better, getting laid, or breaking a diff on the trail. I couldn't tell you because I don't remember getting laid very well, and I have never broken a diff, not much experience with either " Hey William, sorry about your tire troubles, but I have to say, keeping your sense of humor will help with the girls. You had me laughing at least, LOL! And hey, stay a little more sober, and the improved memories will get you through the slim times. Got a rooftop tent yet? Karen   gp (Garrett) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 08:19 am:    KJ: "And hey, stay a little more sober, and the improved memories will get you through the slim times." being sober is way over rated!!! you are better off getting a nice digital camera. and using the excure of not being sober when you snuck in a few pics is always good. i think you know what to do now.   Moe Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 08:50 am:    Are you sure the center diff was locked and the light was on?. That hill doesn't look that bad but photos are usually decieving. I would try again.   fast&furious Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 09:44 am:    I would take the scorpions back and say they have poor handeling characteristics you dont care for and if they ever want to do business with you they need to take them back. they suck   gp (Garrett) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 09:50 am:    where did you buy them?? places like sears are pretty good about swapping them out for a new set of your choice. may not give you the full amount back, but better than a tire you will not like for 35K miles.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 10:50 am:    yeah, explore your options Will. Maybe tire shop will take them back and credit you a good amount (75% of what you paid is better than nothing) and you can put that towards a new set. Maybe you can sell the tires on ebay or various other 4x4 bboards. Maybe you can just experiment with airing-down and running different air pressures. 20 less lbs/square inch makes a huge difference in traction. Buy an air tank over at EE and airing-up & -down will be easy and you'll be ahead of the game at the end of the day...   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 11:40 am:    That may not be the hill I am thinking of, but it is right next to the one I am. The real challenge on that hill is right behind the tree and sort of under the driver door. Its a huge rock that comes straight up out of the ground, so as you are gripping up the hill, you also have basically a huge city curb to crawl up as well. In my defense, I did listen to the advise given and realized that the Pirelli wasn't going to be the best offroad tire ever. I was satisfied with the performance of the XPC's, best tire I've every owned. Looking at the tread of the Pirelli's vs. the XPC's I just knew that the Pirelli's would be as good or better offroad, and just a little better is all I was looking for, I don't want the trail eating monsters that some of you guys have. I don't have the money fo them, and I don't really go offroad enough to need or want that. I was wrong.   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 12:54 pm:    umm, dunlop rover R/Ts... Good all around tire. A little over $100 a tire depending on size. Can't hurt to ask them if they will swap them for new ones for a small fee. Worst they can do is say "No". But, you'll never know if you don't ask.   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 03:51 pm:    I got the guy at Discount Tire (damn good company) to agree to swap for 5 new BFG's and only pay the difference in the original price of the tire, but it comes to about $300, so I can't even begin to think about it. Maybe I'll go pick up some lottery tickets.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 04:10 pm:    Damn Will, that is a smokin deal - you realize that they can't sell those tires as new, so you really made out there. Count yourself ahead even though it cost another $300. Drink some Fosters and you'll feel better....   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 04:25 pm:    No, see I can't do it. I don't have $300 to spend right now after just buying those POS's. That is why price was such an issue in the first place. He said that I could call him in about 3 weeks (when I'll have more $$$) and he will see what he can do about prorating them and getting me some money back, but right now I just have to live with it.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 04:35 pm:    oh, bummer. what about something cheaper than the BFG's?   Leif Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 05:29 pm:    Does anyone feel that the lack of down travel associated with tall springs and short shocks could effect the traction in this situation?   KJ Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 05:36 pm:    William, Why don't you see if you can trade for four tires now, and pick up a spare when you have the money in a few weeks? Just make getting that spare a priority and don't run trails until you have it. Karen   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 05:38 pm:    OK, since we've covered the Pirelli's , anyone want to buy a set ? I'm accepting bids...! Andy   Mel A. Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 05:38 pm:    Sorry to hear about the bad purchase William. That had/has to suck. About the stock Michelins: I was very impressed with the performance of my Michelin XPC's when I first got them. I was going through gumbo mud with little trouble. About 5000 miles later, they proved to be useless in even 1 inch deep mud. I already decided that my next set of meats will be GY MTR's (if I have the $$$) or Interco TrXus (being the cheap bastard I am ) Here are some pics taken just 2 days after I got my car. It has a fresh set of XPC's on it.   Dave_Lucas (Dave_Lucas) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 08:06 pm:    If they are willing to give you full credit I would jump on it! I like the idea that Karen had trade the 5 you have to get 4 BFG's and save up for the spare but like Karen said get the spare ASAP. It is better to spend a few extra hundred dollars than to have spent around 500.00 and hate the tires. Listen and learn, you have the privilege of getting excellent advice here on Dweb for free If you are hell bent against the BFG see what else they have in you price range   Jose A Cabrera (Jcabrera) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 08:15 pm:    William, For all that is worth.... I also have The Pirelli Scorpion A/T (47K miles on them).... about 5 flats, about 8 balances, and 2 alignments.....I have enjoyed them. They have done great everywhere but mud. I have gone places where Discos and Defenders with BF, MTR's, etc. tires have gone and I still managed to follow them somehow or another. Would I buy them again? probably not..... Good Luck! PS: Very low PSI might help!   Jose A Cabrera (Jcabrera) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 08:19 pm:    PS: A couple DiscoWeb.org stickers give you better traction too....try them, they worked for me!   Randall Smith Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 08:29 pm:    The lack of traction probably has little to do with the tires. Most likely your wheels spin going up the hill because you have put springs on which are almost twice as stiff as stock, and have lifted the chassis without geting longer shocks and relocated shock mounts. The net result is virtually no articulation. LR = articulation. Stiff springs = spinning wheels. Here's the proof which is easy to do youself: Put the old springs back on and try the trail again with your new tires. Or go back and get your old tires and try them with the "HD" springs which will cause your old tires to spin and you will loose all momentum. These are very easy substitution tests which will clearly show that the springs are the real traction killers. Randall   muskyman Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 01:59 pm:    I tend to agree with Randell, to think that just going to a less then perfect tire would cause a disco not to make that little hill is crazy. allthough the perelli scorpion is no desert killer as the name implies. it does have alot of biting edges, way more then a bald tire would. a stock disco with bald tires could go right up that hill in dry conditions. I'd trade the tires in even if you have to borrow the money. because you asked and they said yes...when a guy goes out on a limb for you, you better be willing to go there too or you look like a baby. then you better look at your set-up sometimes "upgrades are not always upgrades"   Neal Glessner (Nealg) Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 05:04 pm:    No offense taken Leslie. William, unless that picture is decieving, you should be able to make up that hill even on slicks. I agree with others and suspect that there is another factor afecting your disco's climbing ability. Keep in mind, some of the people that are saying Perelli's suck may not have had a set. I have had them for a long time and speak from personal experience. Also, heep in mind that the other tires compared in the above thread are not H rated. I use my disco as a daily driver and often drive 80+ mph. If H rated isn't important, I agree there are better choices. If h rated is important, I believe they are the best deal out there.   Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 07:56 pm:    Looks like I suspect the lift kit also. LROI did a 18 page 'Tyres on Trial' for the May 1998 issue and the Scorpion AT actually beat the BFG AT. It was the older style BFG AT but still. The LROI test is the most comprehensive test I have ever seen. Not your American mag sales pitch. A stiff suspension is very poor on uneven surfaces. Many years ago a friend had bought a jeep pickup from his boss who hated the stiff ride and had the springs replaced with 'soft' springs. We were down at Metberry hill just west of Colorado Springs and he just walked right up a hill made up of moguls and broken down granite. People at the top said we were boring. I'd bet it's your suspension. Mark&Bev   Mike B. Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 08:20 pm:    After looking at the picture, it looks like airing down and a little more momentum might do the trick. In most situations, it is more about skill and driving ability anyway. Anybody can make it up a hill in a rig that is decked out to the max. But where is the fun/challenge in that? Go out there and practice. If at first you don't suceed; try try again! You have a fantastic learning opportunity, don't waste it. Thanks, Mike B.