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nadim
| | Posted on Sunday, December 01, 2002 - 04:01 pm: | 
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Guys,
Hope some of you can shed some light on this, as I would like to hear your valued opinions...
I am willing to run beadlocks on my Discovery by the end of winter. I have already talked to several companies with Do It Yourself Beadlocks that simply weld onto the outer part of the steel wheel.
Now, just if you thinking, the countries where my Disco will be roaming about have no laws against beadlocks, so they are not illegal.
I was thinking of 2 scenarios:
1. getting 15x8 steelies with no backspacing, and adding the beadlocks to them,
2. adding the beadlocks to my current 16x5.5 D110 HD steelies, that I know are stout, strong, and have a 22mm (0.87´´), therefore, with the addition of the beadlocks on the outerside, the wheel will be litterally centered, which is great...
The other facts are the tire choices, which can be had in both 15´´ and 16´´ (Simex Extreme, MTRs, Michelins X series...)
Anyways, Just wanted to hear any input on what to do? Shall I keep the D110 16´´ rims clean, and work on 15´´ers? Daily driving with beadlocks (with nyloc nuts, not nutserts) is safe?
Thanks in advance guys...
Nadim |
Milan (Milan)
| | Posted on Sunday, December 01, 2002 - 06:38 pm: |
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Well Nadim,
I'd base it on this:
If you want to run 35" or smaller tire, get either - as you said, the 15" one will give you greater tire selection but I find the 16" tires a bit tougher in the sidewalls usually.
If you want 35"+ tires, get 16" rims. Better sidewall to rim size ratio. I would also spring for a wider than 5.5" rim and run fatter tires, especially for sand, rocks.
The offset is obviously important and on anything with fenders even a 1/4" may make a difference but I find that people usually concern themselves with the offset too much for the wrong reasons. I get arguments for worse scrub radius, bigger load on bearings and steering components, etc. with less backspaced rims. The arguments are valid, but really the vehicle won't care if it's 4" or 4.5". So get what will fit best clearance-wise.
I'm also assuming you meant 0 offset not 0 backspacing.
Anyway, sorry for not being able to give you a more direct answer but I have the same dilema. In general I prefer 16" rims look-wise. I'm not sure if I can see the performance benefits but feel a 16" rim gives lighter wheel+tire combo and less sidewall, so as long as you have enough sidewall for off-road, I prefer 16" rims. But get wider one, man. Come on, be different. 
Let us know what you decide. |
Keith Kreutzer (Revor)
| | Posted on Sunday, December 01, 2002 - 06:42 pm: |
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If you can get bead lock kits for 16" wheels please tell me where!!! These are very rare critters indeed for the DIY clan... My other toy(built by me but marketed by an American Motors corporation) Runs 16's to clear the rather large brakes and other behind the wheel stuff as well as my 109 hybrid for the same reasons. Up till now i haven't been able to find the right Bead kits unless i give some custom shop a ton of $$$$$
One thing to note tire choices for 16's are less, but getting much better... And Loc's are a bitch to balance sometimes... On my last set i ran not nylocs but the steel loc nuts... They never came loose but the guys with nylocs did..
They're safe but if you ever get into a crash and your wheel is even noticed you could have a liability nightmare unless the loc's are DOT legal |
nadim
| | Posted on Sunday, December 01, 2002 - 11:24 pm: |
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Thanks guys for your quick positive responses...
Both 15 and 16 beadlock ideas are feasable, and are doable.
The tire choice for 15 are:
Simex 35
MTR 37
The ones for 16 are:
Simex 35
MTR 37
Michelin 36 (9.00x16)
Now, none of these tire sizes will be any wider than 12.5, since I do want to retain as much articulation as I can, and have the TALL and thin tire (TALLER)...
As for the beadlocks, I know that Rockstomper (www.rockstomper.com, ask for Scott) has a good set of DIY kits. As I mentioned before, I will be running them in countries that do not give a damn about safety (unfortunately), so all I really have to pay attention to is my own and my passengers.
Milan, when adding the beadlocks to the 5.5 LR rims, they will be alomst 7 inches wide, which I think are a teeny weeny narrawer than what I should be having for tires as wide as 12.5, but I am sure that that is not a big ordeal, I will be running deflated most of the time...(albeit river crossing where I may need the hight)
Anyways, thanks again, and I hope we can get some sort of logic for what we should do. Keith, check out Rockstomper. If you do need beadlocks that are not DIY, I can say that Dee Cantrell has a good product and was helpful on the phone in order to learn what the hell I am getting into.. |
Milan (Milan)
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 10:11 am: |
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Nadim,
Given the tire choices, I'd go with 16 and 37" MT/R or the 35" Simmex on the modified LR rim or better yet get an aluminum beadlock if you can live with them.
I know the beadlock will widen the rim. 7" is wide enough for the 12.50 (especially in 35+) but it would have been too narrow for 14.50+ width which I thought you might go to).
You find the 9.00 tires working well there? I'd never run skinny again unless it was on a 2000 lb vehicle like a Willys or Samurai or some buggy. |
nadim
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 11:10 am: |
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Milan,
The whole idea for the DIY beadlocks is to be able to ship the 8 rings to Lebanon from the US, and not to ship 4 wheels, which would cost me a lot. Also, I highly prefer having steel wheels, as I had many bad experiences with Alum. rims, that I prefer the steelies...
As for the tires, I cannot exceed 12.5 for fear of loosing any uptravel in my articualtion. I will be running OME 2´´ + RTE 2´´BL + Flares from AUST. I know that that combo can clear 35 Simex, so I am hoping to stuff up to 37s. The drivetrain will be HHD GBR, so I hope that can cope with it.
The terrain in Lebanon requires that you have some sort of skinny tire to dig into the ground, since there is a lot of grass, surface mud and so forth, and once I need the flotation, then enter the deflation of these tall tires and the beadlocks, which will provide both the clearence and the peace of mind.
My premier tire choice is the MTR, since I think it is the perfect allrounder. The Michelins are tempting, but I am not too sure about their snow/street performance. I would have liked to get my hands on some Baja Claws, but their price (430$ ea.) is INSANE...the MTRs, Michelins, and Simex run under 190$ ea., which is something I can live with...
I am still not certain, I would love to get a nice deal from the beadlocker supplier for 8 wheels, then I can have them on both sets of rims. If the offer is tempting, I will go for it.
Thanks again, looking forward to your feedback... |
Milan (Milan)
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 11:49 am: |
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OK. I get it now about the alu vs. steel. My experience has been OK with both and much better with alu compared to what everyone warned me about. Even cheap alu rims seem to hold up in our terrain better than cheap steelies.
The fat vs. skinny I won't argue as it depends on terrain but my experience (even where I would expect the skinny to work better) was that they just would not outperform the wider tires (wider being 12.50-15.50) on lighter vehicles. On a heavier vehicle (my Bronco weighs 4900 lbs empty and about 5200-5400 lbs loaded) the skinny (33x9.50) just plain suck. Not enough surface area for any decent traction. Except on dry pavement and there the sidewall rolls under the rim under heavy cornering and traction is lost. Anyway...
I also like the MT/R as best all-arounder. I too would like an MT Claw but, just like in your case, the price does not allow this.
Please, email me regarding the beadlocks. I may have something for you. I'm going out now for few hours, so I will reply to your email later tonight. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 12:05 pm: |
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yep the claws are really over priced...but they have awsome traction in every offroad terrain I have had mine in.
I know beadlocks are really cool, I run them on my truck.( or a form of beadlock) but with tall skinny tires at as low as 8-10 psi they are really not that big a deal. from what I have dealt with untill you start getting really wide rims over 10" you dont really nead them even in really hardcore situations.
also if you do go to a 12.50 and want to run at 4psi for ultimate traction expect to have to do a buncha mods to your steering because you are sure to start burning pumps and stressing the steering gear turning those meats aired way down. also the fact that most disco have a single serpentine belt is not good. lugging down the PS will put alot of stress on the belt.
now a cheap proven option
I know all kinds of mud runners, as well as some proffesional mud draggers that run sheet metal screws as lockers. they drill the rims in about 30 places between the safty bead and the lip.
then when the tire is mounted they install 1" sheey metak screws all the way around. one guy I know puts 2000hp through 44' boogers this way and never has popped a beap at about 6psi. |
Shane
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 12:36 pm: |
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FYI
they don't make the 37" MTR's for a 16" rim
only for 15's or 17's
35" is the largest MTR for 16" rim |
Ron A
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 02:53 pm: |
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This article may shed some light..
http://www.rightcoastcrawler.com/billaVista/Beadlocks/Beadlocks.htm
Ron A |
Jason Vance (Jason)
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 03:18 pm: |
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Maybe not everybody's cup of tea, but some great wheels here:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93860
These are modified Hummer rims, you choose your offset, and best of all, reduced risk of beadlock failure or fasteners popping off due to highway use, unlike cheaper alternatives (the Hummer rims use studs instead of bolts). They run about $250 a wheel from the last quote I received. If I had the money, these are the wheels I'd buy. |
nadim
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 04:38 pm: |
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OK, here goes...
Jason, Those wheels ROCK, I love them and I think that they are the best idea since you choose whatever backspacing you want, and the paint is not that bad...2 bad things: 16.5 tires are limited, somewhat, and I cannot ship them from the US to Lebanon, add the shipping cost to the 250$ ea., then it would be more feasable to get 4 guys to make sure that my tires do not pop each time I wheel...but if I were here in the US, ´´I will have 4 please´´...
Ron, I read that article and many others already, and they have all been helpful, but thought to come back ´´home´´ to see what Discoers advise...
Shane, Thanks for the 16´´ MTR inexistance, I think the 16´´ LR would best fit the 9.00x16 Michelins and/or the 35x10.5x16 Simex, since any 12.5 wide tires would rub on their inner sides. going with 15´´ would definitely allow for a wider range of tires.
Muskyman, great insight, and I appreciate the other angles you provide...My Disco is running a 3.5 V8i with 4 belts, therefore I have a choice of either fitting another pump on the other side of the original one, or, if Santa thinks I am a very very good boy, I intend to get a Ram assist (looking to get a ram from an agricultural application or a general application one from some 4x4 manufacturer...).
The main reason I am keen on going for Beadlocks is because I do intend to go as low as 4-6 psi, still have clearence (hence the 35+ tires), and I cannot afford loosing a bead (might join some offroad challenges in the region)...
It is really great to get positive feedback from you guys. I will still try to get both 15 and 16 inch beadlocks as a deal from any manufacturer, that would be the ideal...
We will see...
Thanks again... |
Milan (Milan)
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 05:45 pm: |
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Some more insight:
Some people here run the screws as well and while I have seen them, I have not seen them at work. Supposedly there are varrying results. Some like them, some tore up their tires with them.
Some people glue their beads. I have one glued but I have to experiment more as I think it's still slipping. I find tire slipping on the rim to be more of a problem than losing beads. I typically run 7-9 psi with 33 or 35 x12.50/15 tires but again on a much lighter vehicle.
You will find that heavier vehicle will flex the sidewalls more (doh) so you may get the footprint and sidewall flex you need at higher pressures. Furthermore, radial tires will generally flex better in the sidewall and again will require less airing down for the same performance. I also found stiff bias plies loosing bead more often at low pressures, due to their stiff sidewall being "pushed" of the rim by rocks and "pokeys" easier than the flexy radials.
I would not get 16.5s either. Limited tire selection and even the inside bead seems shallower than that of the 15" or 16" rims. |
Keith Kreutzer (Revor)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 08:24 pm: |
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Okay Nadim I've seen them... In person! These guys are in my home town!And these guys build some fun toys! I've actually considered using this type of bead loc but not for speeds above 4 wheeling speeds.
The problem you see is that the only thing containing the outer bead is the clamping action of the outer plate to the inner plate... Don't get me wrong these are TOUGH locs but i wouldn't count on them staying put when you start down the highway at 50+ |
Ron A
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 02:50 am: |
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Nadim after reading your post I�m a little curious about your inquiry for beadlocks. Not knowing your particular situation I�m wondering if this is something you really want to put on your truck.
Putting beadlocks on a 5.5 rim might be abit overkill since you could run the tire with just about negative pressure (i.e. vacuum) and you�d have a hard time breaking the bead. (just kidding) You�re not going to see an advantage to having beadlocks until your tire and wheel widths get large enough that they overcome the (attached) area around the bead.
I�m not sure of the history of beadlocks but if memory serves sprint cars (and circle track cars) started using them to keep the tire from spinning on the rim and keep the bead seated when they got �outta shape� or turned over. But I do know that offroaders didn�t start putting them on their trucks until tire and wheel sizes got wider and tire pressure got lower and lower on the trail until they started to make sense as something to keep the tire bead seated while putting an absurd amount of force directly on the sidewall of the tire� whoops got carried away there..
So the question might be do you really need them or do you want them because they look kinda cool?
Balancing beadlocks � pain in the ass, hell centering them and torque(ing) is tough enough. Maybe equal or BB�s would work, dunno
Using screws for beadlocking � I believe boggers use to use screws between the bolts to keep the tire from spinning on the rim. Using screws for a tire with high side load.. yikes can�t imagine that working very well (anybody try yet?).
DIY beadlockers � why pay to ship overseas? Its just flat plate cut with an O.D. and an I.D. and some equally spaced bolt centers. Not to hard to have a fab shop make those up. BUT, try welding a concentric part together� ohhh damn heat from welding makes metal go funky and all of a sudden its not flat anymore.
Those Hummer split rims are really nice and I�m sure we�ll see more of those out on the trail. But I doubt if you�d want them on your daily driver, just the static weight alone might be abit hard for a stock LR axel to take.
Good Luck (grin)
Ron A |
nadim
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 11:30 am: |
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Ron,
Thanks for that good point of view.
The reason why I am going for them is not only looks (hehehe...that is the first time I write that!)...No, really, I have been in single digits with my 5.5´´ rims and the 265/80 TSL radials, and they had held well, but I wanted to go lower, and feared popping a bead. After seeing a buddy´s J**P flip because of popping a bead on a sidehill, I thought, better safe than sorry, right? Now I know many other factors were involved in his roll (light headed, heavy footed...), but nonetheless, it is a nice insurance for snow/sand running.
My initial plan was to keep the 5.5x16 rims stock with some AT tread, and get the 8x15s with the Beadlocks with some Xtreme tread. This post only debated whether or not it would be a good idea to istall the beadlocks on the 5.5s directly, have one set of tires, and be ok with that all...nothing more, plus wanted to see various points of views...this is done, as you guys have made methink of more stuff than I have had already (skip the jokes...).
Now, I have seen no fab shops in Lebanon that I can trust will cut an inner and outer diameter and drill 32 holes per ring, so DIY ones sounded smart...The welding is not a problem, as I am currently practicing and taking some ´lessons``in order to know how to do that myself...
Anyways, I think it will all come down to what size tires I will be running, and how safe they will be on the road. They are a good piece of mind, and that is what I hope to achieve with them. |
Ron A
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 12:40 pm: |
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Nadim it sounds like you know what you want and it is very nice to have beadlocks and watch the other trucks reseat their beads knowing that you don�t need to worry about that problem.
One thing I learned when shopping for beadlocks was not to use an 8� rim on a 12.50 tire but to go with a 10�. I headed their advice and when I got the truck on the trail I realized why, the wider rim allowed the tire to shape better on the rocks when the air pressure was in the single digits. The narrower rim pinches enough that it won�t let the tire shape as well.
Sorry to hear that Lebanese machining skills are so poor (LOL).
As a point of reference you can get 15 x 10 rims (5 x 6.5) for about $170 U.S. It took awhile but finally several manufactures decided that 6.5 bolt patterns would actually sell over here. (grin)
Good luck and I hope you find what you need.
Ron A |
thom mathie (Muskyman)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 04:29 pm: |
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I have worn out a buncha sets of 35 x12.50 15's over the years
some at normal pressures, most by wheeling at really low pressure(6and below)
and I have found 8" to be a much better size.
even with my 13.5 claws the 8" gives a much flatter tread then the 10" rims at 5psi
the 10" rims start to lift the center of the tread at anything below about 9psi or so for most.
also tucking a 10" rim is alot tougher then the same tire on a 8" rim the sectional width is 2" wider there for needs those inch's to fit.
nadim e-mail me I got a idea for you |
Ron A
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 04:55 pm: |
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muskyman that was my point..
an 8" rim w/ 12.50 wide tires can work very well on a standard rim because it pinches the tire splays the tire out a bit more. But with beadlocks, 10" rims and 12.5 wide tires you use all the tread and the sidewalls as they were intended.
Like you I have gone through many 35 x 12.50/15's and still have a bunch hanging around the back of the garage.
for a standard rim I like 8" but for beadlocks I would only recommend 10" for the larger tires.
Ron A |
muskyman
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 05:06 pm: |
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ok thread hijack here
ron A
tell the story of your dear departed navi and RR
looked like no fun
thom |
Ron A
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 05:35 pm: |
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ooooouucch that pains me.. (HHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA)
who put you up to that, one of the evil doers that controls this board? (LOL)
the navi and RR are physical proof of what happens when you don't use your head (idiot me).
towed rovers on this trailer many times so I placed this 87 right were it was supposed be on the trailer. tounge weight was a little light so I moved it forward and set off again. rolled both trucks a few times (ooops). a few days later after the swelling in my head went down (kidding - nothing hurt but the ego) I figured out why the tounge weight was so light causing the trailer to sway. the engine had been removed and most of it was in the cargo area.
idiot me...
lesson for those that tow, saftey first.
Ron A (sorry nadim for the hijack) |
nadim
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 05:57 pm: |
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(Disregarding the hijack...hehehe)
Yeah, anyways, as we were saying...
The DIY beadlocks will add 1.5 inches to the outside of the wheels since the tires will be seated against the 1/4 inch ring that is welded to the outer rim of the wheel, therefore, the 5.5´´ rim wheel become around 7´´, and the 8´´ one will become around 9.5´´...
I have no real experience with rim width. All I believe in is that I prefer a more narrow rim when there are no beadlocks. Now, with beadlocks, I have NO idea, and would like to hear more of this.
Ron, it is true that the fab. business in lebanon is not that great, but I am currently emailing someone who seems to be able to get me Hummer rims for ~50$ each...if that works, then we all know what is going on...hehehe
Anyways, still listening, and still evaluating... |
thom mathie (Muskyman)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 06:01 pm: |
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Ron A
dont blame yourself to bad the dynamics of towing catches up with you.
this is how my truck goes to the trail
this jeep on the tow bar weighs 4300 lbs or so and to our best estimate I'v pulled it about 10000 miles over the last buncha years .
the jeep lost a rear bearing axle and rim/tire assembly going 70MPH in traffic on a Wisconsin hwy! I kept it on the road got it into third gear and drifted it to a stop with the jeep jumping around like nothing I'd ever seen. I actually told my buddie next to me "hold on we're going over! so I can almost relate to your over the top 3 1/2 er. I'v rolled a number of times at slow speeds but the hwy stuff scares the shit out of a person real fast.
thom
AND NOW TOO RETURN THIS THREAD
nadim,
those are 35 x13.5 x 15 baja claws with pnematic tirelockers on 8" rims...they rock!!!
thom |
thom mathie (Muskyman)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 06:10 pm: |
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thom mathie (Muskyman)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 06:22 pm: |
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 |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 07:40 pm: |
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nice looking binder there.
Ron, did you roll both rovers, or had some disposable chevy pickup to tow the trailer?
peter |
muskyman
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 09:22 pm: |
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thanks peter
thom |
Ron A
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 11:59 pm: |
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Nadim I haven�t seen a set of DIY beadlocks but if you cut off the outer bead lip of a standard rim, then weld on the new inner flat ring to the rim would you be gaining as much 1.5� to the width? Maybe so�
If you are getting hummer rims for about $50 then maybe we better start checking on the shipping charges from Lebanon to the U.S. (LOL) Hope you get em that would be cool.
Ron A |
Ron A
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 12:15 am: |
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^^^ hijack alert ^^^
muskyman very nice truck
I remember those days with a soft top in sub-zero temps... now I have a hard top and I live in a desert, go figure (grin)
pm I told you that story while we were passing the vodka... can't you remember anything (LOL)
http://rojorover.net/navroll/
now I have the GMC to tow with... much safer (HA)
Ron A |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 12:24 pm: |
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you don't remember things yesself, Ron. We were drinking Laphroaig then.
peter |
Ken Dunnington (Ihwillys)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 01:32 pm: |
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I ran the screw method on a set of cheater slicks(9") on steel wheels on a '55 Pontiac with a stout 455/turbo 475/3.90 and 4.56 rear. They held up just fine to the high-traction, low-psi environment, though I can't say the same for the 57-64 O/P 35 spline axle shafts.
Ken |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 01:38 pm: |
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what makes a TH475 different from 400? straight-cut gears?
peter |
muskyman
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 02:15 pm: |
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TH475???? thought thats what the frontwheel drive version of the 400 was called???
ken,
the drag guys have been fighting the spinning tire on the rim syndrom a long time...makes me chuckle when the "extreeme" rock crawler guys talk about "new never tried tactics" bladders,beadlocks,screws...ect ect all been done long ago.
thom |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 02:52 pm: |
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i don't think so. TH400 alone was enough for a school bus, or 12-banger Jag or Ferrari, or big-cube V8s of the past. AFAIK, TH475 was the last automatic before some big-ass transmissions on large trucks. should be is nearly identical to TH400. Someone sells straight-cut gear kits for a 400, and claims it'll make it a 475.
besides, pontiac didn't make FWD cars back in 55.
peter |
GBarclay
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 06:16 pm: |
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Nadim
I think you will be very happy with the Rockstomper beadlocks. I know Scott from the local trails, and know people using his equipment. They are the best DIY beadlocks I have seen, easy enough to install, just be sure that you tighten the ring down a few times.
The only issues I know of were caused by the ring not being torqued to spec. And re-torque every so often once you start using them, they do work loose.
I run 15x10 beadlocks with 38x12.50 Swampers on my J**P. I run as low as ZERO air pressure. This really allows the tires to grip rocks, but usually run 5psi. Before the beadlocks I ran 35x12.50 tires on 8" rims as low as 6 psi without popping a bead. All my offroading is rockcrawling so your experience may differ. |
nadim
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 12:06 am: |
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G...
Thanks for that...It sure does seem that Scott does great stuff and knows the ropes of the business...
I hate to keep on saying this, but I encounter every kind of terrain during an average outing, so I will definitely not run at zero, but I want to have piece of mind about the beadlocks security...
Thanks again... |
Ron
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 01:14 am: |
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TH475 is a beefed up TH400 usually found in motor homes, cube vans etc.
Ron |
Ken Dunnington (Ihwillys)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 10:05 am: |
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Yup, the T475 is a beefed and regeared T400. First gear is straight cut and higher numeric ratio than T400 first. Second is helical and also higher. Third is the same, direct. Those are the main differences.
musky
I don't know about the FWD bit, maybe that's what the Caddies used in the El Dorados or whatever their FWD cars were called. I'm pretty sure this one was built using parts from a T475 and a T400. Would make sense then that perhaps the innards from a FWD 475 were put into the RWD 400, I don't know. This particular trans was built by E&M in Denver, on CO Blvd. Good guys.
Ken |
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