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Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 10:38 am: | 
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I sometimes have days where I am really impressed with how smart I am, then there are these other days. I had one of the other days days last week and ended up with (best case scenario) blown head gaskets and maybe warped cylinder heads. I don't think I need to discuss the worst case, but Santa has promised me a new 4.0 short block if I continue to be a good boy.
I have hopes of finding a pair of heads I can merely bolt on until I can get mine surfaced, etc. and onto the new shortblock. Anybody have any opinions on the different head gaskets? Any testimonials on cylinder head swaps?
Paul
Very Embarrassed! |
John Moore (Jmoore)
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 11:59 am: |
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If you recall all my post on the RN BBS, I put composite gaskets on my 88RRC, they seated well and worked fine. I did the job myself. I went through the same trauma. What to do... I might have lost a little compression, but it was never a race car!
Actually the new head gaskets and valve job put alot of life back into my rig.
Let me know if I can be of help!
Good luck!
-John |
Paul Grant (Paulgrant)
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 12:27 pm: |
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FWIW I did the head gaskets on my '85 RR back in October. I used the metal gasket because that is what was sold to me by RN. When the order was placed, no mention of an alternative composite gasket was mentioned. As I was in the process of doing that job, a friend who used to work for a LR dealership, asked why I wasn't using the composite. At that point it was too late to turn back.
I can say without a doubt that with skimming the heads and doing a valve job that the engine is much better than before. Would the composite have been better, long term, I'll never know. Do yourself a favor and check RPI's website. They have lots of valuable advice and suggestions specifically about torqueing head bolts on an engine with a metal head gaskets.
Good luck. |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 12:36 pm: |
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Thanx Fellas! I went ahead and ordered the metal gaskets mainly because I didn't want to blow another $65.00 on head bolts, to replace them when Santa brings me a new shortblock.
I was really surprised to find that surfacing and a valve job was as inexpensive as it has turned out to be. With luck, I can be finished by the weekend and have only spent $500!
With nearly 160K on the clock, I expect a significant improvement in overall performance. If I have time, I'll have the injectors cleaned also.
Paul |
John Moore (Jmoore)
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 12:50 pm: |
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Paul, my valve job was $250. They did not pressure test however... It wasn't as bad as I thought either. |
John Moore (Jmoore)
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 12:53 pm: |
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Hey Paul, how is the series truck turning out?
I also forgot to add the gasket/seal kit, bolts, etc., that plus the valve job, I spent a total of $450. |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 02:25 pm: |
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John:
The valve job is indeed $250, plus $28 each for the resurfacing (blanchard grinder for aluminum?, rather than "Milling?"). Fortunately, I had the intake gasket and valve cover gaskets (shop supplies installed on my own truck, the accountant will LOVE this!) so that helped. AND, I was able to get all of the exhaust bolts out without breaking a one! Was your machine shop able to source valve guides/ intake seals less expensively than RN or AB? This was their only real fear and only "Up" to the price.
The Series truck has taken a back seat to paying jobs for non-family members (Got yet another engine replacement job!) and now the Disco. I will be paid for twojobs this week, just in time for Christmas and the blown engine. Fortunately, it (the series truck) doesn't complain much and I caught the wife looking at Series pictures, picking out color schemes:-).
Life could be far worse, I read in the obituaries this morning where a childhood friend died at 41.
Peace,
Paul |
Ken Dunnington (Ihwillys)
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 06:32 pm: |
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Just curious, is there a crush thickness difference between the two types of head gasket?
I know with IH SVs, the composite head gaskets are a fair bit thicker even after crush, so an increase in quench area occurs(thus a lower compression ratio also). The solid gasket was original, the composite aftermarket.
Ken |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 07:25 pm: |
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Yes Ken, the finished torqued thickness of the fiber gasket is greater than that of the steel gasket, however, I do not expect any increase in compression to cause me any further problems...
Also, and perhaps the least attractive characteristic of the fiber gasket is that the head bolts are to be used once... Whereas, the steel gasket head bolts can be reused once.
Paul |
John Moore (Jmoore)
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 07:25 pm: |
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I got my gasket set, guides and seals from AB. I live about 3 miles from AB and the shop I had gotten parts from them too, so I really didn't look into getting anything cheaper.
If I ever caught my wife looking a photos of Series trucks, I would start checking for news that hell had frozen over!
Ken, there is a crush difference. You will lose compression with composits, unless you shave the heads. I found www.rpiv8.com very helpful.
-John |
Ron
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 10:46 pm: |
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What kind of engine do you have?
You are only allowed to skim a VERY small amount and reuse metal gaskets. Composite is 10x better (you will see why below). The full head set is cheap and the bolts are not that bad either, so generally if you skim you install composite.
How bad were they warped? Alyssa's was 15thou warped so it is basically trash. You can actually see it without the use of a level it is that bad. The sad thing is that they took it off and put it back on when it was warped that badly, and it took 18months to blow the gasket, composite is way more forgiving.
Ron |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 06:27 am: |
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Ron:
I have a 3.9 litre engine in my truck. 0.015" My GOD! How did that happen? Where did you find a spec on max removal amount? I haven't been able to find anything other than the max runout before resurfacing.
I didn't run it that far after it began to overheat, not more than ten minutes. I guess I'l find out how bad it is this evening, if my fingers don't freeze!
Paul |
Pugsly (Pugsly)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 10:29 am: |
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It's in the workshop manuals. IIRC, you shave 5/1000 for each skim, up to a max 20/1000. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 10:43 am: |
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this same debate has been rattling back and fourth in every engine rebuild debate since modern composite gaskets have shown up.
stick shift! |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 10:59 am: |
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Musky, your thoughts? Paper or plastic, er, steel, or fiber/stainless steel? And, what are the differences between the Buick gaskets and the Rover gaskets-that'll keep the thread going!
IMHO, if the cylinder head resurfacing does not result in valve to piston or worse, piston to cylinder head intereference, it will run! I'm gonna tear it apart and put it back together again and then, I'll let everyone know my experiences.
Hell, maybe I'll use TWO steel head gaskets...
Right now, I'm trying to just get the damned thing torn down. It's chilly in an unheated garage, but at least I'm not doing THIS job in the driveway! Maybe, I'll look for a furnace...
(running for cover)
Paul |
muskyman
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 11:30 am: |
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I guess it depended on what I was looking to do.
If I was patching togather a high mile rover motor that had been overheated to failure and milled to get rid of warp . I would choose a composite for the fat compressor like seal they give you in less then ideal conditions. lets face it that cold garage aint the best place to be meticulous about cleaning the decks before replacement.
but if I was building a from scratch go motor I'd want to mill the heads deck the block and get as small a squish zone I could get for the rebuild money I'm spending and normally a one piece high performance thin little steel gasket would get the nod. the in stallation invironment is perfect your good to go.
but before you quote me I havent had to go head/valve diving into a rover yet so this is just my opinion
with the known reputaion of rovers I'd use new heap bolts no matter the gasket. one damn stretched bolt and your back in the garage. |
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