| Author |
Message |
    
Reid Walkenhorst
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 08:05 pm: | 
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Well I finally did it. STUCK. Slid off of a "ATV" trail. An area I frequent, but unfortunately this time things went real bad real quick. After winching itself again, and again, and again, the tow truck made it to the location, but during extraction, ended up more or less destroying the exterior panels of my beautiful DII. I mean ALL panels. Estimate from a dealer recommended shop $13,000+.. Thank God for insurance. Marque auto body of Bountiful, Utah works directly with Land Rover of Centerville (Good Dealer). Should I request any special mechanical checks? The dealer is taking the rover for all mechanical work. Should I assume they know what needs to be checked? I've always been impressed with the rover, but until this incident I have never realized what an absolutely incredible vehicle they truly are. Although some of the Discovery features are considered by some as "fluff", these are solid off road machines that can be compared to none!! Simply amazing. |
Robert Sublett (Rubisco98)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 08:17 pm: |
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My thoughts and prayers are with you... 13k! OUCH!! |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 08:23 pm: |
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Reid,
how did it happen? (I mean damage during extraction)
peter |
RVR OVR (Tom)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 08:40 pm: |
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So you got stuck and you had to get extracted to the point your body was banged to hell.
1. Why should insurance pay?
and
2. Why does that make you believe you have a solid off-road machine.
Sorry, I like Rovers as much as anyone, and I am a fan of their toughness, but I find your post humorous at face value. Please expalain further.
Tom |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 09:07 pm: |
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Well, if he has full coverage insurance a lot of insurance companies will cover it no matter what you do to it on road or off, roll it off a cliff, drive it into a lake, do whatever you want. Thats why you pay all that money every month. Unfortunately the monetary amount (and in this case negligence) of the claim could give them reason to raise the rates or worst-case-scenario cancel you. |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 09:08 pm: |
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Tom,
insurance has to pay just because it's there for it. doesn't matter if someone got stuck off road or wrapped his vehicle around the telephone pole on the side of the highway.
the answer to this question is a question "why do I have to pay?"
what startles me here is how can be ALL body panels destroyed during a recovery?
peter |
RVR OVR (Tom)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 09:29 pm: |
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Check your fine print, boys. Geico, for one, states right in the policy that they will not cover your vehicle off paved roads.
Tom |
Daniel Covaciu (Danielcovaciu)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 09:29 pm: |
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I am an insurance agent. The insurance will pay. At least our company would. Negligence dosent matter. Most accidents are caused by negligence anyhow, off-road or on. His company probably will raise rates or non-renew him, which is understandable. IMHO |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 09:49 pm: |
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Tom,
Thats why I said most insurance companies
Daniel,
At some point the decision of whether or not to cancel or non-renew a policy often comes down to the disgresion of somebody and at that point any evidence of neglegence won't be working in your favor, that is all I meant. |
Runningmule1
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 08:29 am: |
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This is a complicated matter. Conditions: Snow covered trail. Road was off camber at the point where I slid off. When the rover went down, it basically slid down into a dry creek bed and came to rest against some brush on the driver side. I knew I was gonna have some mountain pin stripes if you know what I mean. When the tow truck made it to the location, he to slid off the road and actually ran in to the passenger side of the rover. Tow truck vs. DII, lets just say the tow truck won. Anyway, he winched himself back to the road and positioned himself above me. A valient effort for those tow truck guys, who also own a body shop. This however is where things get complicated.
After several unsuccessful attempts to get the rover out. It came to the "final hour" so to speak. You see, the trail was off camber as I previously mentioned. Thus the tow truck was unable to winch my vehicle straight up the bank. He had to position his truck further up the road where the trail leveled out. Unfortunately the line from my outfit to his was, shall we say heavily forrested?
The school of Hard Knocks has a class on Physics and Stationary Bodies. Link two stationary bodies with a tow truck cable, and the cable will bring the bodies together, no matter what obstructions (tree's, large boulders, dead fall etc.) may be present. This is where the destruction of the vehicle started. Keep in mind, previous to this there was NO damage except for the brush scratches previously mentioned.
I'm not an insurance expert by any means, but in the mind of my insurance company the Tow truck operators, and in this case, the owners of the body shop, were neglegent in recovering my vehicle. I'm not familiar with the "Code" recovery vehicles are required to live by, but from what I now understand, they are required by law, to use extreme descretion. If the vehichle cannot be removed using available means an alternative solution must be made. In short, they should have said, sorry you're screwed. Or requested another Tow truck or whatever. They are expected to make these decisions in the best interest of the vehicle and customer. In this situation it is deemed by my insurance carrier that they failed to do this, and possibly saw the opportunity for getting a repair job. Apparently this is a common form of insurance fruad. Small town repair shop needs work, so they intentionally disregard ethics to create work for themselves which will be paid by insurance carriers. Don't ask me...Any way the whole situation has grown into something that I didn't expect. Bottom line is, my insurance is paying to have the vehicle repaired, however they are also ivestigating the situation to determine if perhaps the Towing company should be accountable for portions of the damage. More later, my fingers are cramping. |
Alex Cabrera
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 08:40 am: |
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I understand completely. I also had an incident where they smashed the passenger side while extracating me. I got stuck in a service road similar to those that power lines use but way out in the boonies. Tow man got stuck while winching me out and had to call another tow truck. I have the whole thing on video somewhere. (My SO said maybe we'll need it for claims, had no problem with insurance)
Insurance paid the towing portion and the fix on the panel. Full coverage pays off in the long run.
Funny thing though... the tow dude said with a sneer "I though these trucks were suppose to go everywhere"
I said "It got me here didn't it!"
Didn't have the courage to say.. "I just can't get out" |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 09:06 am: |
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Guys, my wife is an insurance adjuster. You would not believe the claims she pays.
If an engine blows, she pays...
If the driver was drunk, she pays...
Their policies don't even have any outs for illegal activity...
If a car is totaled and the owner can prove amount and extent of additional parts, etc., she pays.
Crazy, but I'm not surprised in the least that this would be covered under not only collision, but maybe even the comprehehnsive portion of the policy-especially as the majority of the damage was done while the injured vehicle was not under its own power.
Paul |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 09:29 am: |
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Hopefully you don't need the assistance of that tow company again as feel pretty sure they aren't going to be too happy about being charged with negligence.
Interesting to me that you feel that they are the only ones who should be making decisions during this event. It is your vehicle and you did get it into this situation. SO you kinda just watched them drag your LR over and through anything that got its path without saying anything.
No wonder it costs me so fucking much to insure my LRs.
Jaime |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 10:00 am: |
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paul whats your wifes insurance company? i want in on that kind of coverage 
rob
crossing my fingers for a little while longer with just liability  |
Dave_Lucas (Dave_Lucas)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 10:45 am: |
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Were you actually there when they were recovering your disco? |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 10:49 am: |
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Sounds like a pulley (aka snatch block) could have helped prevent some of the damage if the tow truck driver had one. But since I wasn't there I'm only guessing. |
RJ Clayton (Tozovr)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 10:58 am: |
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Quote:I'm not an insurance expert by any means, but in the mind of my insurance company the Tow truck operators, and in this case, the owners of the body shop, were neglegent in recovering my vehicle.
Sorry, you were negligent to have slid off road...had you truly been in a "capable vehicle," then you would never have been in that situation; you would have avoided it or you would have winched yourself out...
Disco's are great trucks, but man take some responsibility for your actions. |
mongo
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 11:11 am: |
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Ok RJ, you never been in a accident before? Or, have been in a situation where it goes from good to bad in the matter of seconds...I don't think he's not taking responsibility for what happened, but he did get fucked by the tow truck guys recovering hid truck. Just my .02 cents...
Frank |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 11:24 am: |
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the tow truck guy was a rookie of sorts I'b bet
I started working as a tow truck driver for a mobil station the week I got my drivers lic. at 16.
I had been riding along and dragging cable for 2 years at this point and still the bosses rule was anything other then a simple straight pull you put two lines on it. the old tow trucks where double boomed just for that reason. one goes straight to the vehicle the other goes through a block and at as near to a 90* angle to the direction of pull from the primary line. if this means you need a second truck to anchor off, so be it.
this is also a very important thing to learn off road when extracting a vehicle with other trucks. first you need to load the side cable to get the stuck truck off the obstruction then use the primary pull line to move it back onto a stable spot. by adjusting the two cables carefully as you go you can get trucks out of some unbelievable spots with poise and grace and rarely any more damage at all.
rushing to get someone out at the "11th hour" is just stupid thats when a allready bad situation turns into a really super expensive one. |
RJ Clayton (Tozovr)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 11:26 am: |
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Frank, not saying he was completely at fault but I just think it's an interesting situation. Important to see both sides.
I have been in an accident. It was my fault.
Just saying that had he been prepared for the situation it might not have gone that bad. had he had a winch, he may have been able to reposition the disco so that the Tow truck might better reach him.
To say the recovery team was "negligent" because they got him out of a situation is odd to me. Like folks sueing rescuers for helping them. No, we don't want to get our rig bashed up during recovery, but sometimes it is the price we pay. You wanna play like a sport, you have to be willing to PAY like a sport.
That's all I'm saying.
Of course I realize that the poor guy probably didn't think he was going to get the shit smashed out of his disco when they yanked it...Was it the "final hour" because they said it was now or never or because he did? What were the other options? I think a lot of it comes down to some one sayng it had to get extracted THAT way.
RJ |
R. B. Bailey (Rover50987)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 11:27 am: |
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Sounds like a good reason to carry a camera with you when you go off-road. He could prove that the damage was done by the tow company, not by being stuck.
http://landrover.mrbaileyshistory.net |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 12:06 pm: |
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maybe it's just me, but if i was there watching and the tow truck guy started bashing my truck i would have stopped the extrication and called in for reinforcements, even if i knew it was covered by insurance i would have started thinking "my rates are going to go thru the roof over this" and also felt very guilty uselessly beating my disco if by some odd reason i knew it was 100% covered and my rates wouldn't go up.
but thats just me.
rd |
mongo
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 12:07 pm: |
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Hey RJ,
I've been on the "people sueing rescuer" side of the battle. I worked as rescue climber for 14 years and I know what your saying. All situations are pretty dynamic, the tow truck guys really didn't know what they where doing. I also agree with is there really a "final hour". no ones bleeding to death, so could it have waited until morning, don't know wasn't there. Remaining patience and exploring all possibilities before going for the "final option" of trashing his truck just to get it out was a really bad call on the tow truck operators part...I'm also a firm believer in "u wanna play, you gotta be ready for the consequences"...
Shit happens, gravity's a bitch...
Frank |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 12:56 pm: |
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Rob,
I second you on that.
Even the beginning of the story - the tow truck slid into the rover - made me suspect the operator didn't know jack shit about off road recovery. Even something as crude as running a safety strap across the roof of the rover while pulling it straight would have helped a lot.
I think things happened just as they should have - insurance company pays for everything, sues the tow truck operators, and ramps up Reid's premium.
Tom, Paul, and others - when the road is covered by snow, you don't necessarily know if it's paved, dirt, or ATV trail. Several times I ended up where I shouldn't have - and I am relatively rules-minded where off-road activities are concerned. All them were where you couldn't just tell where the road was!
Can't forget the looks on the faces of a gang of snowboarders when I showed up at the top of the ski lift...
peter |
Dave_Lucas (Dave_Lucas)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 01:02 pm: |
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RJ,
I personally think that the fact the tow truck driver slid in and had to pull himself out says allot about the tow truck drivers skill or lack there of, as well as the conditions that lead to the disco being in the situation in the first place. The tow truck driver should have realized that it was not going to happen in a safe an effective manner and informed the customer that it would have to be done another way or another day. It is careless of the tow truck driver to recover the vehicle in a manner that causes so much damage unless this is the only way to get it out or specifically instructed to do so by the owner.
I am still waiting for him to answer the question of whether he was there or not when it was being pulled out. I know if the tow truck driver slid down and bashed my truck I would have called it off. |
Paul D. Morgan (V22guy)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 01:05 pm: |
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Interesting Thread....
When I was a young Marine, I went home to Washington State for XMAS Leave '88. We had lots of snow and My father and I went out wheelin in our Bronco II. I am sure a few of you remember those. Anyway, through our own stupidity and excessive speed; we lost control, spun around backwards and then rolled down a hill into some water. The BII came to a stop on the passenger side in shallow water. We climbed out the Driver side window and went hiking for a truck. The Tow Truck came and righted our vehicle, and then pulled it back up the hill. Funny thing is that after three trys, it started and we drove it home. It sucked though because all the windows were gone. This moment was captured in the local newspaper, therefore the level of embarassment was high. My Dad's insurance covered the loss as a total. So I learned the hard way to keep the speed down when on snow and ice. No matter how much of a bad ass you think you or your vehicle is, mother nature has the final say.
Paul
'00 Pig |
Mark Albrecht (Markalbrecht)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 01:16 pm: |
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Reid: that really sucks!
On the insurance issue, you will need to read the fine print to see what is, or is not covered. For example a couple of years ago I was XC skiing about 12-15 miles outside of Salmon le Sac (very rural) WA. I travelled on forest service roads to my trail and parked off the main road. Long story short, when I came back in the afternoon, the hot car had melted the snow and sank to the frame rails. Just as I was snuggling for the night (night fall and long ski/hike out) a kid came by and later sent a tow truck. So I got winched out to the tune of $140(a winch was my very next mod).
I had towing coverage through my insurance (State Farm -- my old insurance co.)for winter maintained roads. My insurance co. first called the state patrol who said I was on a winter maintained road (ie: covered claim), she then called the forest service who also agreed that I was on a winter maintained road, not satisfied yet, the adjuster called the tow truck driver who said I was over the snow berm. Then she denied the claim. A lot of complaining later the claim was approved. So coverage depends on the insurance co. and your policy.
Paul: which company does your wife work for?
Reid: who is your insurance co.? |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 01:31 pm: |
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Mark,
shovel is your friend.
When the occasions when I got stuck and those when I didn't have the shovel started to display some great correlation, I said "no more travel without the shovel."
that, and the mudflaps, keeps me on the road.
peter |
Jeremy Hamilton
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 01:39 pm: |
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Does nobody realize that Reid said that THE INSURANCE COMPANY determined that the tow company was at fault. Reid didn't say he felt they were at fault.
"Bottom line is, my insurance is paying to have the vehicle repaired, however they are also ivestigating the situation to determine if perhaps the Towing company should be accountable for portions of the damage."
The word 'portions' to me implies that Reid is taking some responsibility for the damage. It's his insurance company that wants to possibly go after the tow truck company. They're covering him no matter who was at fault though.
Anyway, I'm just trying to help defend someone who's original post of this thread was not intended to try and find ways to scam insurance and get as much money as he can out of them. He wants to find out if there's anything that should be checked and nobody seems to realize that is the point of this thread, not to rip on someone because they're using their insurance for what it was intended for, ACCIDENTS.
I just couldn't sit idly by reading a thread that is not helping answer the question that was asked. |
Corey Shuman (One_Bad_Rover)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 01:44 pm: |
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Reid-
Hey, Im in Utah as well and Im just curious as to who the Tow company was, we sure have a lot of winners in our neck of the woods!! Oh, and where did you get stuck at?? |
RJ Clayton (Tozovr)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 01:51 pm: |
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Dave, I agree with what you type. I too wonder why they didn't call off the rescue attempt after the tow truck slid into the Disco...sounds like it was a crappy situation all around.
Jeremy, I merely stated that I thought it was odd that the Tow Truck driver was deemed "negligent" by the insurance company when there were contributing factors from all around...
Paul, my buddy had an old Bronco II and told me about folks having their totalled by insurance companies because of those BIG ASS rear windows....
RJ |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 02:42 pm: |
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jeremy,
I'm right with you
once Reid's vehicle has come to rest and the damage done from "that accident" is finnished anything that happens after that is the responsibility of the towing company if they assume that risk by taking the job. towing companies carry damage Insurance just for this reason, they also look at a situation and say "sorry we cant help you" or we cant help you unless you sign this waiver because there is no way of getting you out without doing more damage.
insurance companies do this every day and know how to place liability where it belongs, I'm sure they will work this out as well.
reid's problems come down the road when he has to deal with a "repaired" vehicle or pay higher rates because he is now classified as a higher risk. but getting in the spot he was in is why we all have insurance so people shouldent blame him . |
Paul D. Morgan (V22guy)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 02:51 pm: |
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RJ,
You are soooo right about those windows. They were huge I tell ya! |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 03:02 pm: |
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disagree musky my man. how can a person watch their vehicle being trashed without saying anything and then say well it is the other person's fault. yeah I agree the tow company has some liability as they took on the job, but come on. just doing nothing about it isn't right in my book.
Jaime |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 03:05 pm: |
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Peter:
I hope I didn't inadvertently make a statement that was critical of you, as I certainly would not wish to do so.
My wife works for Farmers Insurance Co., one of the big ones.
I spoke with her about this one and said that it would be a very difficult one to determine and one that will be tied up in the courts for a long time as these things get dirty quickly with insurance companies suing towing companies and then accusing the body shop of being in cahoots with the towing company and on and on. She also said that these things happen at least weekly where the guilt is at question and since nobody can resolve anyhting without government interference, the courts and th elawyers get involved.
At this point, I'm just glad that Reid got his truck out and everybody was safe. In vehicle recovery, the big thing to keep in mind is that no one becomes a victim and that damage is limited to property and not people. If we have to abandon a vehicle overnight, discovering it vandalized or stolen the next day is far better than suffering the consequences of having a vehicle fall on a person, or further damage being done. The insurance will cover the vandalism or theft perhaps just as well as the body damage.
If nobody's bleeding and you have a way home, there is no "Emergency".
Good luck Reid. I would suggest that you might wish to start looking for an insurance company. The wife said she'd pay a claim like this once, and then strongly suggest cancellation. Be prepared.
Peace,
Paul |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 03:28 pm: |
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yep, classic reason why insurance rates are what they are. people sue happy. besides, one can sue anyone - if you collect is the prize.
fucking people who can't drive on or off-road.
and yes, this one pisses me off.
Jaime |
Greg P. (Gparrish)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 03:34 pm: |
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One other point, that maybe was mentioned, maybe not, but your situation will also increase everyone elses insurance rates too. All of the factors behind your claim will be put in the actuarial pool for the next time they want to make rate hikes across the board. If Discos or Land Rovers are consistently higher, then our rates will go up. |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 04:07 pm: |
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rolled an F150 onto it's side during a freak blizzard in Tucson one year. Got a cool pic somewhere...
slid off the road on bald tires, nose dived into the ditch, bounced off bedrock outcrop, went up on nose, flopped onto side/roof.
tow truck couldn't pull F150 straight back (tail wedged in ditch), so he wanted to use the deck to lift the tail & pull at same time. told the driver to get another recovery rig, but he said "hey....no problemo"
tail of F150 slid off deck after he lifted a few feet off the ground (hmmmm....off camber, wet, icy, metal on metal...big surprise). crunched the tail light, bumper, tailgate, panels. Tweaked the bed outta whack even more when it bounced down. "Well gollllllly"
but this was a one-time "oops" dropped truck, not a long, drawn-out pull with constant bashing. tail of F150 landed out of ditch when he dropped it, so he just straight pulled onto road and we all pushed it back on 4 wheels. started right up, smoked like a bitch, and front tires immediately blew from jagged crushed fenders.
Insurance went after tow company for a portion of the $11k repairs. F150 valued at $13k, but they refused to total it. Never could figure that one out. damn truck came out of the shop with crooked bed, big gaps in hood, door, panels, and it crabbed down the damn road. Glad it was the company's truck and not mine. damn company too cheap to get new tires - all their policies were like that. not long after I told my boss what he could do with his company & I was summarily fired. The End |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 04:56 pm: |
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Paul, my Dad is a broker for Framers (basically means he is in charge of everything they do in Louisiana and Mississippi). I have formally worked in the company the past two summers (and off and on since I was pretty young) got to enter lots of funny claims and non-renewals into the data base. The best two that come to mind are a lady who jumped out of her MOVING car because there was a bee in it causing the car to roll into a road sign and some lady who ran into someone else's car INTENTIONALLY because "she was mad at him", Both claims were only a little more than $1,000 and they were the first ones they had ever made but they got non-renewed anyway (hence my comments about the degree of negligence mattering earlier) You should have seen some of the comments my boss wrote on those......... There are lots of other funny ones (I have a book of them somewhere) but those are the two that stick out the most. |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 05:11 pm: |
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Paul, no worries whatsoever.
I only recalled the famous "Texans in Colorado" thing two years back - everyone jumped on to bash the guys, while it was more or less clear that it was an honest mistake (which they acknowledged, paid for, and made their best to fix).
Degree of negligence does matter, however. We've pulled out a guy in a Disco who was >.< this close to rolling it three or four times (for those who are familiar with Los Coyotes, he slid sideways trying to get through the Left Turn Hill from the top). We ran towards him and told him not to do _anything_ before we come and strap him on; five minutes later, he started doing exactly the same - madly spinning all four while Disco was nearly laying on manzanita bushes. When we first saw him, he had a few dents on the pass. side. When we came to pull him out, he had the entire pass. side sheetmetal FUBAR. Took two trucks to pull him out, one to hold him vertical with a strap over the roof, another - to pull from behind.
(meanwhile, his two sons were running around ecstatic laughing - "look dad, mom's not gonna like it!!!" if those were mine, i'd whack them bad...)
peter |
runningmule1
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 05:21 pm: |
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Well, I was there, the whole time, watching in slow motion, inch by inch, doing what I could to help, mostly from the drivers seat, per their directions. It's difficult to explain these situations after the fact. I know I fucked up sliding off the road. Guess I am a shitty driver. That said, I have had no experience with anything to do with insurance claims, tow trucks, traffic tickets or any of that. Yes I drive hundreds of miles off road, in fact I would dare say that probably 1/3rd of the 25,000 miles on my rover were put on off road. That's what rovers are for. I also know where every scratch is on my rover, and I remove every piece of lint that I see from the interiior. I detail the engine compartment once a month as well the undercarriage. Thats also what rovers are for. Right? Mines better than yours!!!! Maybe I live a sheltered life, but I havn't even had a traffic ticket for Christ's sake.
That being said, I was stuck, hated it, felt like shit, wife cried for two days, the neighbors sneered, the dog howled, holy shit my rover!!!!!! For clarification, I don't hold the tow company responsible, Everyone I've talked to since the accident...why didn't you do this or do that, why didn't you stop them. What else was "I" gonna do? There was no alternative (at the time). Life is a learning process. I slid my rig (AKA Weekend Sanctuary) off a mountain. No shit it's my fault, i take full responsibility, and i told the insurance company the very same thing. It's there opinion the "professionals" should have used better judgement. I called a tow truck, they got me out, yeah I played and I payed. I was happy to get back to the driveway. It's a big claim, my insurance carrier is in total disbeleif that a tow truck operator would do that. Obviously they aren't gonna just fork over the cash, why not see if another insurance company will pay. That's what people in those positions were hired to do. Sorry for raising all of your rates.
Jaimee if your rates are so much now, that's probably your fault. We all do things that impact others, good or bad, let's not get started on that. You sound like the type of person I generally avoid, go to the "Tire size" thread if your having trouble with this one.
I will get my rover fixed, I will drive it off road, hopefully I won't get stuck again, once was enough. Trust me I don't guage my ego by the number of times i've been stuck being in places I shouldn't have been. But, I've reasoned it out for my own sake that things are going to happen, the odds stack up against you, drive off-road enough, your gonna get stuck, your gonna break down, your gonna end up in bad situations, your gonna walk home. I'm not a hardcore off roader, I don't have a winch (yet), I carry basic supplies. It's impossible to prepare for everything. This was nothing more than an evening ride that went to shit. |
Kyle
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 05:34 pm: |
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Towing company definately at fault and owner at fault. I suspect the tow truck driver wanted to get payed and the only way to do that was extract the truck. Had he given up after the initial bashing it would have looked really bad.
SO , he kept trying and you ended up with what you got.
Mongo , I hear you about rescuers being sued but this was a guy payed to do a certain job. If he wasnt qualified he should have kept his dumb ass home where it belonged. Not owning up to the damage he caused is also (In my book) pretty fucked up.
HOWEVER , I dont really think the owner should have stood there and watched this guy bash the living piss out of his Disco and not stop his dumb ass somewhere in the middle. Perhaps the owner doesnt know any better? Perhaps the owner is a non confrontational kinda guy? Perhaps the owner is loaded and its really no biggie to him , just wanted it out.
The scary facts are that there are far more people going into the woods with these trucks then there are people that know how to extract them when they have a little fuck up... Hell tehre are whole packs that go out at once in a group and none of them have a clue about what to do when "Good trips go bad". They got all the gear and shiny shit and space age winch rope. They just dont have the slightest idea how to make it all work so that any stuck is just a minor inconvenience.....
Kyle |
Kyle
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 05:39 pm: |
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oops , forgot to add....
We also pay insurance companies for this very reason. because most people do dumb shit from time to time . The blood sucking bastards capitalize on this and should pay up......
Kyle |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 05:55 pm: |
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With all that said, Reid, I hope you have your disco back on the road soon and back as good as new. Stuff happens and as you said life is a learning process.
I'll put in another plug here for Bill Burke ( http://www.bb4wa.com ) if you want to get more hands on experience in doing recovery. He's worth every penny.
Either way sounds like you have a positive attitude about the whole thing and that's good. |
E Snyder
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 06:15 pm: |
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With a snatch block and a couple of straps that tow truck could have pulled the Disco to or from just about any angle. (If the truck was able to tie himself off). Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and all of us are reading this from our desks and applying our experiences to an experience we didn't see. You may have not had any of the right equipment, but go prepared next time, and read up or practice how to get your vehicle out of shit. Miles driven off-road are only part of the equation. Knowing how to use recovery gear is pretty key, even the basic stuff that every person who drives their truck off-road should have. Everyone should do it before they even set foot (or tire, in this case) in the woods. Hell, with a D-ring and a tree strap, you can make your own snatch block, hook up a tow strap, and pull your truck in a completely different direction. There are lots of "seasoned" 4wd drivers who are lost when a winch recovery is even a little complicated.
I love any tow truck story that ends in "It took TWO tow trucks..." I've got one of those stories myself. And for insurance, I once totalled a truck, bought it back, and asked since it was going to be in the shop if I should just cancel my coverage for a while. The lady told me to keep it so I could maintain my "accident free" status! Go figure. |
gordon sitts (Gsitts)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 06:31 pm: |
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My two cents worth... As an ex tow truck operator
I know I would have called for help to protect the very expensive rig and Been justified in BILLING the insurance co. EXTRA which they would have probably gladly paid. The fact that the tow operator didn't do this just proves to me he wasn't very professional about his business as a tow operator or a businessman.
Glad you got it out, post some pictures if you can
Gordon |
feroz fazal
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 07:00 pm: |
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you should have more rover freinds who are willing to pull you out. real pros those tow truck drivers that you had i tell ya. |
Brian Friend (Brianfriend)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 07:24 pm: |
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Reid,
That was a very descriptive naration. The visual made me chuckle. Sorry about your truck though. My wife would have been crying also, but I've got her prepped real well for those kinds of bad things. She cried after the first dent, but the truck is so bad now that she doesn't even notice the small scratches and dents.
For me....When I hire a mechanic I am hiring him on the idea that he can do mechanics on things that are broken. I don't give advice to him because he is doing something that I wouldn't. Same with a lawyer or dr. Now the tow truck guy...thats a tough one and hind sight is always 20/20. There was probably a point when Reid realized that this was a bad situation, but unless he has experience in this matter it was probably to late to avoid the disaster.
I can picture myself in the situation. "hhhmmm, that doesn't look right....well he probably knows what he is doing. Uh oh....that really doesn't look right...hope he knows what he is doing. Oh shit....that dumbass doesn't have a clue. Well...no point in saying anything now..it's too late." That might very well be my thought process.
As to insurance. Accident claims are probably not the main reason rates are going up. I would say that insurance fraud is the main reason.
Yes you have to be prepaired and have to Expect things to go wrong and to break. And you have to understand the risks you taking and know ways to minimize those risks. It is a learning curve. Hopefully you learn on a small scale but untill you have the oportunity to learn you will remain stupid.
I like to think of myself as prepaired and a skilled driver but I am only as prepaired and skilled as my experience and my study allows me to be. Someday something will come up that I have not experienced before and I will be walking or behind a wrecker or on the phone with my insurance agent. |
Runningmule1
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 08:20 pm: |
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To all of you, points well taken. Thankyou.
O.k. Home from work, couple of beers and ready to continue. When I mentioned in the first post how impressed I was with the rover I meant to expand on all that it went through. While I was driving during the extraction, I was running the engine and trying to help get it up the slope. This is probably going to lead to another lesson on something I shouldn't have done, but so be it. I kept the vehicle running mostly to turn the front wheels when they wanted me to. But as it turned out they needed the assistance of some power from the rover. The slope was steep. I remember, when they first started they wanted to get the rear of the truck facing uphill. I showed them all of the anchor points underneath and they latched on. To begin with they wrapped their cable around the hitch a-frame. I was in the driver seat turning the wheels as the rear of the rover came up and about. As they pulled upward I was able to steer and move backwards. They re-anchored and tried pulling up again. This was more or less unsucessful. There were some large boulders impeding the way. I told them to give me a minute and was able to reposition the truck under its own power to a better line away from the rocks. Keep in mind this is all happening on a steep, rocky, snow covered mountain side. I remember looking at the Levo-guage when I was sideways on the hillside trying to get in a better position and it was pegged. The slope increased in steepness toward the top as it came closer to the road.
My concern mechanically is that at these angles horizontally and vertically with the engine running and me getting on it now and then, could I have done damage to engine, transmission, or trasfer case? I remember that toward the end of the "festival of carnage" I was sitting at the steepest part, looking STRAIGHT down. I mean straight down. The rover didn't skip a beat, just sat there at idle. The other thing that shocked me, was that about midway through the whole ordeal the fuel light came on. Don't say it... As the day progressed I nervously watched the guage go below the bottom mark on the guage. Yet right till the end, even at the steepest section, when I swear I was straight up and down, the rover just kept running like nothing happened.
Finally got to the road, gas level still below the lowest mark, drove home, dealt with the wife. Visually inspected the underside for damage, none, checked under the hood and found that a little power steering fluid had seeped out through the filler cap. Checked the oil, clean as a whistle, coolant fine, everything appeared normal except for the exterior. I actually found tree bark wedged between the beads of my tires. One of those was leaking air, but stopped sometime during the night.
Took it for a drive the following day, and it drives, handles, breaks etc. as though nothing happened. I live in Idaho, and the dealer recommended shop is 100+ miles away, you wouldn't beleive the looks I was getting from people.
Maybe it's not a big deal that, mechanically the rover "appears" to be operating as though nothing happened, but from my standpoint it's pretty damn impressive. There were periods when it was teetering on two wheels, being winched on, pulling it over on it's side, drug over boulders sideways...wow!!! When I look back on it...I was really stupid.
When I showed up at the body shop in Bountiful everyone came out to take a look. All they could say was "and the tow truck did this"? I expressed my concerns about the frame possibly being bent, although in reality I had no reason to beleive it was. The owner of the shop simply said, no...frames on Land Rovers don't bend, these things are built, you'd have to do more than this to damage the frame. I just listened in a daze.
One word on Land Rover Repair: Dealer tells me that not just any shop can work on a Rover and make it right. They are "special vehicles" and they require "special care". They send all of their work to this one particular shop who specializes in rover repair. They rebuild with only LR Genuine parts, in my case they are replacing every exterior panel except for roof, hood, and rear door. Dealer says the warranty will not be affected if repairs are done by authorized shop, and if LR Centerville does all mechanical work on the reconstruction. Estimated time for repair is 6-8 weeks. Owner of the shop says he can't guarantee it will be done quickly, but it will be done right.
This is a side of owning a Land Rover that few people see. I'm not saying that every dealing customers have with Land Rover Dealerships is positive, but in this case I at least "feel" like there gonna try and take care of me. It was just yesterday I recieved a DVD in the mail from LRNA advertising the new Discos. I didn't ask for it, it's just part of ownership. I think part of the mystique about Land Rovers is that owners are part of a secret sort of club that nobody else knows about. They just hear bits and pieces, and wonder what it's all about. The proof is in the puddin however and even though my experience has been a bad one, I actually have more appreciation and confidence in the durability of these vehicles than I had previously.
Thanks for all your input guys:
RPW |
Brian Friend (Brianfriend)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 08:35 pm: |
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The picture that comes to mind is a kid pulling a toy car by a string behind his bike. Did you video it? |
RJ Clayton (Tozovr)
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 09:40 pm: |
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Reid,
In a year or two, you will look back on this and laugh...really! Come to next years Rover/Jeep Summit and I'll buy you a pint after!!
RJ |
olivares
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 11:14 pm: |
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reid,
local sugarhouse boy here, where did you get stuck, and where was your mind? it's dec. in utah, no winch, thats asking for it!!! |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 11:47 am: |
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well somehow the truck went from 13 grand in repairs to just needing 4 new doors and 4 fenders. i think someone is getting seriously ripped off here.
should be about 5k in repairs.
rd |
Daniel Covaciu (Danielcovaciu)
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 04:57 pm: |
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Rob, doors cost about $1000 each. You do the math. |
Jay
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 05:05 pm: |
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I watched that new "Discover Discovery" Land Rover sent out. Its 7 minutes of European pop/techno and the Land Rover driving down the road. Thats it. Doesnt say a single thing about the car. |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 05:53 pm: |
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you dont need a whole door, just the skin... but if you insist on a door, you can get tehem cheap used, or do you require a brand new door for your used and abused car?
rd |
Matt Rigby (Mrigby)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 01:08 am: |
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Hey Reid,
I'm in Utah too and would love to get to know another Rover owner here. I live in Sugarhouse. I'm impressed by the fact that you 1. use your Rover off-road which is rare and 2. that you live in Utah and drink beer. Email me off list and maybe we can hook up for a trail or two. We have a list of Disco owners in Salt Lake who get together occasionally and a small rover club (Great Basin Rovers).
Matt Rigby
[email protected] |
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