Radials vs Bias Ply

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Author Message   PerroneFord Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 11:42 pm:    For those who have run both, what are the downsides to running a Bias Ply tire? The newest Swamper (the LTB) at 34x10.50 is rather tempting, but I've not run anything but radials. I've been told to expect a rougher ride, flat spotting when cold, and having to air way down offroad. Any other quirks? Thanks, -p   William Turner (Wturner) Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 11:49 pm:    They walk/wander pretty bad at highway speeds, as they don't have as much resistance to sidewall flex from side to side. I had some Co-op mud grips on a '78 GMC farm truck, and they would sure cut a mean rut in just about any mud. They are pretty bad ass, but not for an everyday street driver. IMHO   Anonymous Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 11:56 pm:    Got trailer?   PerroneFord Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 12:10 am:    Nope, no trailer. This is a daily driver, although my daily commute is 18 miles round trip, and all city. The only highway use would be on a wheeling trip. I am also looking at the GY MTR, but was hoping to get something a bit more aggresive. I suppose the TSL Radial is still an option. Anyone running those in 33x12.50? -p   Craig M. Highland (Shortbus) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 12:35 am:    I have the 33x12.5x15 MTR's on AR 15x8's. they need an offset wheel, and four inches of lift to fit. (well, sort of fit) there is a 33x10.5x16 TSL radial though. Craig   PerroneFord Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:06 am:    I plan on getting that same wheel to fit this tire. I'm also working with a 91RR which has a bit more wheelwell than the Disco. I also have a ~4" lift. I test fit the 33x10.50 and it fit with my truck fully loaded with zero rubbing. I think the 12.50 will require minor trimming. How are the 33x12.50 TSL Radials on the highway? In the weet? In the snow? Should I fit a set of more highway oriented tires for around town? Noise doesn't really bother me, and I only expect 20-25k miles from them anyway, so wear isn't really a problem. I just want a competent mud tire that will run on the highway, and won't slide all over the road in this Florida rain. I've got about 3 months left on these Trac Edges and am looking forward to something more aggresive. Thanks for all the help guys, -P   Craig M. Highland (Shortbus) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:10 am:    TSL radials-on the highway, in the wet, in the snow,= they suck. great in mud, not so great on slickrock, pretty good on granite. My next set will be MTR's fo sho. Craig   PerroneFord Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:17 am:    Well, I guess I will just suck it up and get a dedicated mud tire for here, and fit a set of more mild tires on the 16" wheels for all-around use. This has been really helpful. I wonder what the GY GSA's are going for. I've actually been shocked by what I've seen those tires do. -P   Ron Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:22 am:    Put some boggers on it perrone. I think they make a 33x12.50 bogger Then anytime people give you crap you can just show them a pic of the boggers. Ron   Craig M. Highland (Shortbus) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:31 am:    mmmmmmm- 37x13 Boggers yummy Craig   Ron Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:53 am:    I wish I had the axles to handle those tires. Ron PS craig I sent you an email   PerroneFord Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:56 am:    Boggers won't do it. The tires would be half worn down by the time I got to Ocala! Not to mention I really don't like the looks of them. If those Parnelli Jones Dirt Grips weren't so damn expensive, I'd give them a try. But without more info, I'm not willing to take the risk. I know what to expect from the Swampers and Goodyears. -P   Ron Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 02:09 am:    "I guess I will just suck it up and get a dedicated mud tire for here, and fit a set of more mild tires on the 16" wheels for all-around use. This has been really helpful" Soooooooooooo why not boggers for the dedicated mud tire ? Ron   Milan Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 02:15 am:    Perrone, I found the TSL Radials quite livable on the street and very good off-road. On the street they would slide a little more in the wet but nothing too drastic. I actually found them quite sticky for the tread design. Better than BFG MT. In the snow they were still better on the street than a bias ply TSL. Neither the radials (32x10.50R15) nor the bias plies (33x12.50R15) balanced well but the TSLs have always been horrible on road. The radials you could get balanced better and the ride was much smoother. Also the bias tires would slide much more in the wet and they're almost scary in the snow. Still livable but you do have to pay attention when driving. I did not find the bias tires to wander any more than the radials on road. They wandered more than my stock tires did because they were bigger and wider but the sidewalls are very stiff. They do flat spot easily and take few miles to work these out. They also run hotter than the MTRs for some reason. Coincidentally, the TSL radials also flat spot but not as much as the bias ones. I now have the MTRs and they're great all around, especially in snow. Only in mud do I wish I had my TSLs on. Or at least the TSL radials. Either radial also conforms to the terrain better when aired down. The TSL bias plies, because of their stiff sidewalls (6 ply I think), also come off the bead a bit easier than the radials. However, they're fairly tough when it comes to getting punctured. In other words, I would not put TSL bias plies on a daily driver again but I had done it. The only way to know if you like it is to try it or have somebody who tried it and knows what you like tell you. Good luck with whatever you decide.   Ron Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 02:19 am:    "I guess I will just suck it up and get a dedicated mud tire for here, and fit a set of more mild tires on the 16" wheels for all-around use. This has been really helpful" Soooooooooooo why not boggers for the dedicated mud tire ? Ron   Nadim Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 02:51 am:    I really think that boogers are not made for our Rovers...they require a massive amount of power, and they are very badly designed. I know that they are the ultimate in mud, but they have NO side traction tread, they dig in way to much, and they are 100% directional, meaning that if you want to back up and enter at a different angle, you will not be able to as easily as you entered. I currently run the TSL radials, and I am not really convinced with them. Out of 5 tires, I have punctured 2, and with no major reason... My next step will be running BFG AT/KO 35x12.5x15 as a daily driver, and Simex 35x10.5x15 Extremes as an offroad tyre. I do have to change between these two tires because I see sand, road, rocks, mud, grass, snow and mostly every terrain possible... If you are outside of the US, do try Simex, I've seen a D110 with Simexs burn My TSL (with ARB). Nadim   PerroneFord Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 09:07 am:    Nadim, Unfortunately, I live in Florida, and the Simexs aer not legal here. Interesting that you have punctured two TSLs. How'd you do it? I've known several people to run that tire, including my wheeling partner for several years, and he did lots of rockcrawling and forest running with no problems. The Boggers aren't badly designed, they are designed to do one thing very well, and that makes them fall short in any number of other areas. They are very popular where I live with guys who have large trucks. There is primarily mud and sand here, but they have large engines and can spin those large boggers in the sand. I really don't think our trucks have the power to even spin them well in the mud. Maybe the new 4.6 Discos or rangies, but not an 11 year old 3.9l engine in a RRC. The MTR is starting to sound like the most reasonable choice. Maybe the 35x12.50 since they run small. That tire is actually 34.2. I don't see how they can get away with calling a 34.2" tire a 35... -P   Milan Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 12:05 pm:    I agree that once you get into something like Boggers or TSLs, you should probably have 2 sets of tires. Boggers seem to perform very well here, even on side hills. I've seen them work in some serious off-camber situations and always snicker when I hear "they don't work on sidehills". However, in all honesty I have had problems on sidehills with the TSLs and a buddy with AT KO, just walked it. Same driving technique, same vehicle setup. Mine and another bud's vehicle with TSL SX's would slip. AT's would not. I'm sure the boggers would be even worse. This was on dry dirt. On muddy slopes, the Bogger's side lugs seem to hold you. My TSLs would slip. We don't have many huge rocks but on the rutty trails, the boggers just grab for any available traction. I'm not sure if I'd run them without upgraded axleshafts though. In snow, any Swamper sucks (no SSR experience). So I guess it depends on the conditions and the driving technique. In any case, the radial TSL will be less puncture proof than the TSL. The TSL we just could not destroy - running the sidewall into sticks, sharp rocks, etc. The 35" MTR comes in at 34.5" on an 8" rim with 24psi. Still taller than most 35's not as tall as Super Swampers or BFG MT/KM. You could make them taller by putting them on 7" rims but maybe the slightly shorter height might be good (less cutting). The MTRs seem to have a very good and resistent sidewall as well. I know this does not make it easier to choose but I'd say if you want good riding tire and don't run in mud most of the time, get the MTR. If you want a trail tire, get the TSL. The Bogger comes in 14.50 width at least in 35's. And they really require some beef to handle them.   Nadim Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 12:42 pm:    I have been debating which way to go... I currently have 265/80 16 TSL radials (32.2x10.5x16), and will DEFINETLY be going larger. I was looking into 33x12.5x15 boggers, but the thing is that they are not versatile, and that is the terrain I face...I mean, for me to get to the top of the hill, i meet rocks/dirt, then mud, then snow...so I need a tire that can get me up through all this. The TSLs are just not doing it for me...people with ATs are doing better, and that drives me nuts...2 got punctured (i have no idea why...heard an air leak, thought it was the ARB, saw the rim on the ground...) I think that I HAVE to go with 2 sets, as I will be living in Saudi Arabia, and commuting by Disco to Lebanon...that is when I'll have the 35 Ats on...once in Lebanon, I can run the Simexs (relatively cheap @ 120$ for the 35s) and do well here... But on highway, sand dunes and so forth, BFG AT'Ko is what I'm getting... Another decent tire is the Mickey Thompson baja balted...I like the treasd, I think it'll bite, plus i think they hav a 34x11 size... cheers   Milan Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:11 pm:    Hey Nadim, you sound like a perfect candidate for the MTRs. I think they are better than any AT out there yet give very comparable ride and same or better performance in the situations where the ATs typically excel. Try them and then you can still buy the Simex if you need a true off-road tire. I have only experience with the MT Claws (bias) as an observer and these seem to really grab as well as Boggers, yet performed better in the snow (should be similar on sand) and they flexed way better over rocks.   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:20 pm:    Perrone - I have seen it done, but I wouldn't recommend the Bias Ply TSL's for a daily driver that you commute to work in. One of the biggest reasons is that you will chew them up really damn fast and will want to replace them once a year. A mud tire with little tread at 20K is worse than an AT at 40K with a lot of tread left. Of course, they are loud, cup, and sometimes shoot chunks off if not inflated enough. Fun on the highway to hear the 'WHACK WHACK WHACK' as a half-on, half-off lug whips agains the fenderwell. This only happened to me when I ran the pressure too low. For these reasons, I have two sets of tires for my Disco. If you buy serios MT's like the Bias Ply Swampers, you will see that you end up spending more money replacing them than having 2 sets in the long run. I have also "heard" that the MTR's get much noisier as they get older. By the way, I wouldn't trade my swampers for anything else off-road. Of course, you won't see snow, but for those that do, get them siped at discount tire. I don't have the snow problems mentioned above with mine siped. Tom   PerroneFord Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:41 pm:    There has to be someone here who's been running the MTR for 10-20k miles. Anyone got comments on how noisy they get over time? Tom, I too have seen how those swampers work here in FL, and up there in that Georgia clay. There just isn't anything like them thats legal here in the states. I do want to see how those Simex tires work in that slop, if we can ever get some to try. Well, it looks as though it's going to have to be either a set of MTRs for all conditions or a set of Bias swampers on the steelies and a mild road tire on the alloys. Are the bias plys suitable to ride to the wheeling spots? I'm 6.5 hours from Tellico. Is that unreasonable on the bias-ply swampers? -P   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:47 pm:    I typically drive mine about 3 hours to go wheeling, and have driven as much as 5 straight in the hot summer sun. The 5 hour trip was when the tread flew off, after airing up more, no problems. My buddy has Swampers TSL's on his Grand Cherokee (ok, ok), and he drove the same trip towing a trailer with a quad on it, loaded down big time with tools with no issues. He has also been to NY and back from Chicago on the TSL's. Did the job. If you loose a chunk or two, just don't be surprised. It also makes sense to mention that John Lee stated on some posts how he has seen swampers returned for defects, and he compares them to Firestones. One of those things you have to take into consideration. One pain it the major ass option is to carry the Swampers in the back or on a small trailer and switch when you get there. Before I got a tow-rig, I was considering this approach for a trip to Moab. Tom   lew Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 02:53 pm:    I have hade the mtr for about 13,000 miles now and really like them. they have gotten louder over time, but it is not that bad. They have worn a little bit but not to bad prabally get over 30,000 miles out of them. I do notice that the lugs have a bit of chunking.   Nadim Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 03:59 am:    Milan... I am not sure an MT tire would work in the desert...I think I'll be going for an AT, and the BFG seems the head of the bunch. I am still getting some information about tires from people that already live and wheel in the arabian desert, so that can help on which way to go, Mt or AT... thanks tough!   Ron Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 04:18 am:    Michelin makes a beast wars sand/at tire. XZY I think. I can't remember now. Might want to check them out. They are supposed to be super durable too (even better than XZLs!) Ron   Milan Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 12:38 pm:    Nadim, The MTR is not an MT. It works well on loose, granular snow, which I find very similar to sand. But not having sand here I cannot make constant comparisons and am going by what I remember from my trip to Mexico. I'm also sure there are different kinds of sand, so you will have to decide yourself. You should also know that I'm not a big fan of AT tires in general. I consider those all season type of tire. The MTs are more like ATs and only SS, Simex and the like I consider MT. So consider my opinions biased.   Nadim Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 12:53 pm:    Milan... I understand and agree with you...it is either Mt or better...that is very true, but the thing that i am very scared about is going deep into the desert and getting stuck due to my tires...that is why I'll be having 2 sets...one for the mountains in Lebanon (Simex), and another for overlanding/desert (BFG or the like)... You do not need to tell me to put MTs...I run my swampers all the time, and love the howl, noise, and all that crap...that is why we have a 14 gauge solid chassis... cheers   Milan Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 02:13 pm:    Let us know what you get and how it works for you. Cheers   Milan Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 02:15 pm:    Hey Perrone, What did you decide to go with? Just curious.   PerroneFord Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 02:19 pm:    I haven't decided yet. I have a deal pending on a second trail rig. If I get a second rig, it'll be the 33x12.50 MTR. If not, I think it will be the 34x10.50 LTB on a second set of rims. -P   Milan Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 05:32 pm:    I'm trying to locate some rims with less backspacing, preferably aluminum, so I can run 265/75R16 MT/Rs on our Disco. Or 15" ones and stick with 32 or 33 MT/Rs. Up here getting 5-on-6.5 bolt pattern is impossible.   PerroneFord Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 07:04 pm:    Can you not get some from the UK?? They may be expensive, but you should have a much better selection there. I think MJ Lee has a nice variety of alloy rims. -P   Milan Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 07:15 pm:    If I get some from UK, I will get MJ Lee Mach rims. I love those. I have their diff guards and they are good quality and look pretty. But I was hoping for "cheap" aluminums locally or stateside.   PerroneFord Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 07:17 pm:    I've only seen cheap steel wheels here in the US. Perhaps someone else knows of some. Maybe someone would be willing to sell you their used alloy wheels. Hell, I'll sell you mine (91RR County 5-spoke) for cheap if you want to wait a couple months. -P   Milan Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 08:06 pm:    Thanks Perrone. I have alloys already. I want some with less backspacing for bigger tires. I know I can get spacers but they cost as much as rims and I don't much like the idea of spacers. That's why I thought there might be something out there but it looks like UK only. If that's the case, I'll spend the money on the MJ Lee rims. However, who knows, maybe I'll spring for some spacers and keep the stock rims. I've got the Freestyle ones and like them.   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 11:14 pm:    Milan, you have seen the american racing rims, right? Steel but have the backspacing you need in 15" and 16" sizes. http://www.gulfcoastrovers.com/rovers/arwhl/index.htm tom   Milan Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 11:30 pm:    Hi Tom. Thanks for the link. I have seen these and am considering them. But if I go for steel, I will probably shell out for the MJL rims. AR also had a model 73, I believe, that had the bolt pattern but no more. I cannot get even teh steelies locally, so it's either GCR, MJL or some spacers. Thanks for all the tips guys!   Matt Milbrandt (95discovery) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 12:45 pm:    I think Marsh Racing Technology will make you whatever you want, aluminum or even carbon fiber, but they're expensive. Their number is, 1-800-643-3625, their webpage is, http://www.mrt-wheels.com Matt   Disco Dad Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 04:14 pm:    The MRT bead locks are a week design, If anyone is interested I have a line of bead locks that is second to none and priced very conservatively, And mine include lug nuts!! Price those separately If intrested email [email protected] DiscountRovers.com