| Author |
Message |
    
L_Tilly
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 06:05 pm: | 
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I've seen a number of posts (read: holy-wars) in the past concerning lockers and one thing got mentioned a few times that I've not been able to find any good details on. Specifically, some people have stated that a Detroit and/or Tru-Trac style locker is not a good idea if you drive on ice. I'd really like to hear from some people with experience, or at least some dazelling physics models to bullshit me. :-)
I've lived in New Hampshire for five years and spent the eight years prior to that in Nebraska (where I had more experience with ice and -20 weather than I care to ever repeat). I've driven on conditions ranging from a foot of fresh powder to several inches of solid ice, using a number of front-wheel, rear-wheel (suck!) and 4-wheel drive vehicles. Never once did I have a situation where I thought, "Damn, I really wish I didn't have so much traction..." :-/
Summer 2003 might provide an oportunity for me to pick up a locker for the rear of my truck. But (slips on flame-retardent underware) for both cost and personal reasons I'm not too interrested in an airlocker. I'd most likely go with a DL or TT. I know these are both popular options for our trucks so there has GOT to be some people running them in conditions such I we see in a NE winter. Please pipe up with your feedback and comments.
As always, advTHANKSance!!!!
Lawrence [email protected]
96 Disco - Beowulf - NH, USA |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 06:30 pm: |
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my experience:
97 disco
detroit locker in rear open diff in front
235/85 mud terrain futuras
thin latey of snow on paved roads it was defenitly not as good in the snow as stock , but never severly dangerous. similar to a pick up in 4x4, the ass floats around a bit. center diff locked / unlock i couldn't tell a difference... both were worse than stock.
deep ass snow on gravel the car tended to crab sideways but defiently went further that stock would have
i have a rangie now with VC transfer case and open diffs and it is the best car i had in shallow snow on pavement. the VC was sweet.
i think i am going with the not so hard core dual TT in the range rover when the day comes. that or ARB's i might give em a try to see what all the bitching is about 
rob |
Mark Albrecht (Markalbrecht)
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 08:12 pm: |
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Ok, here's my experience with a detroit locker. Actually, first the disclaimer: it was in a '81 GMC 3/4 ton Suburban. Second the experience: worked great off road -- snow, mud, rocks, etc. On road, however, with ice, the rear would tend to push -- you could end up with the rear trying to lead. Others have said that on an icy, crowned roads they had problems with a locked rear pushing the truck to the side -- I never really experienced this. Also I never noticed any of the clanks or bangs associated with lockers (although in a 3/4 ton sub I could be rear-ended by a Honda and never notice). |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 08:21 pm: |
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Lawrence,
I've noticed the single TT in the rear, let alone Detroit. I may be extra picky, but in some place I was able to fly through with open diffs, I made a wide and sweeping curve extending into the oncoming traffic lane... it was a bit embarrassing, 'cause I was drivin at 10mph under the yellow sign's suggestion.
peter |
muskyman
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 08:51 pm: |
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ok...my impression of the dynamics
when you are going down the road with open diffs one tire is tracking the other is applying the driving force
when both are pushing neither is tracking because as you apply force to a tire it has less ability to follow its line.also when one tire is tracking it forces the other tire to dig for traction. when both are digging the rear end lifts up and floats and both tires lose traction(fishtail city)
where I learned this:
back when I was a kid one of my friends dad owned a big snow plowing company. my friend decided he knew more then his dad and put a locker in the rear of one of the trucks telling everbody this thing is gonna have twice the traction. instead it had almost none. everytime the truck got really loaded down pushing snow it started to fish tail so bad you couldent even plow with it.
that locker when it came out became my first locker ever. i put it in my blazer then on 35" tires my blazer went from being good in snow to scarry on snowy roads.
now todays detroits are way looser and more friendly then the originals but all the same under load characteristics apply once the axles are locked togather you no longer have a coasting wheel to hold your line with. this is also why on off camber trails unlocking a selectable locker will prevent you from side slipping. one wheel drives the other one holds its line.
can you drive in snow with a locker?, yes no doubt. is it the best set up?, no not even close |
M. K. Watson (Lrover94)
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 09:47 pm: |
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i guess your quandry comes down to one thing, on ice nothing is 100% good! regardless of what is in your pumpkin, throttle control is everything!!!!!!
mike w |
Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco)
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 10:17 pm: |
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Sorry to hyjack this post but speaking of icy traction. Anybody running chains on their disco? Pros/Cons.
-Chris |
E Snyder
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 11:46 pm: |
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Great explanation, muskyman. I've been wrapping my mind around exactly why the locker does it, and have thought it somehow related to the truck being able to rotate (turn) better with one wheel unlocked, and not being overly driven in one direction by both tires. I like the idea about the coasting tire tracking the vehicle straight. Maybe it's the same idea.
PS to last poster- Chains on any vehicle kick ass, as far as my experience goes. I carry chains for all four tires when wheeling in snow, just in case. |
Pugsly (Pugsly)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 12:34 am: |
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The problem with lockers on snow/ice is that the un-driven wheel actually helps to hold you in place (stopping you from slipping to the side). That's why you always cross side slopes unlocked.
Bill Burke has a really good discussion of lockers on his website: http://www.bb4wa.com/articles/Lockers.htm |
James Gall (Jimmyg)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 12:41 am: |
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With an ARB air locker, if you think the locker helps, use it. If not, turn it off. Off road with rocks and snow, I think a locker helps. Enoch's truck did well off road in snow with a Detroit in the rear. Not sure how it feels on road. |
Andrew Clarke (Aclarke)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 01:21 am: |
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So if lockers suck so much in the snow, why did older Audi quattros have 3 locking diffs? The engineers at Audi obviously thought they were useful for something, and they definitely weren't for rock crawling...
I'm not saying all of you are wrong, but this question must be up for debate, or what am I missing? I remember going through a pretty bad snowstorm on the 401 in Southern Ontario a couple years ago in my brother-in-law's '88 Audi 200. He had the diffs locked and we just plowed through everything. Not that that proves we wouldn't have made it without the locked diffs. |
GregH
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 02:15 am: |
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Andrew-i believe the Quattros (even the famous Audi sport quattros) use gleason-torsen diffs and not "locking" diffs (trans-am series audi quattros may have been locking-can't remember).
GregH |
Greg Davis (Gregdavis)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 09:15 am: |
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Well, I went up to the mountains of NC this past weekend and ran some trails with some friends. They got 6"-10" of snow up there. On the trails, with ice, snow, rocks, and mud, I never really noticed this terrible behavior. I was expecting it because of all the discussions that I read, but I never had it happen. I have a Detroit in the rear and a True Trac up front. I'm sure in the proper conditions that it could be bad, but I didn't encounter them and we were in some pretty bad places.
I've encountered the "crabbing" on some off-camber muddy slopes before, but in the snow it tracked fine. And we were definitely off-camber several times this past weekend. |
Randall Smith
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 09:30 am: |
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Well I have a TT in the front and the rear(6 months ago). One of the reasons to get them is to hope for even more awsome abilities in snow and sand. How many times do you think that someone has thought...Land Rovers don't even have the option of "lockers".
My impression from these postings is that under certain situations a locker will alow the truck to slip side ways. On an open diff axle, if one tire starts to loose traction(on a side slope or going around a corner), the other non-spinning tire acts like an anchor, preventing side ways movement of the truck. The non-spinning tire is just resisting lateral movement. But if both wheels on an axle spinning(locked), because of ice or steeply off-camber, the anchor effect is lost.
I suspect that for most snow conditions lockers would help. Especially for intricate manuevering.
Randall |
L_Tilly
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 09:40 am: |
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Thanks for the info, all. I guess I'll reconsider the air lockers, since I do a significant amount of winter driving (both on and off road). I do love their versitility but I've always been a strong believer in KISS.
When it was time to pick up a Rover I tracked down a basic Disco with no sunroof or other similar options (still the most civilized ride I've ever had off-road!!) to reduce things that can go wrong. I've used the same mentality when planning any mods. I know a lot of people user the ARBs without problems, and I maintain all my gear well myself, but a compressor, hoses, etc just add additional layers to tease Murphy. But this may be a case where something more "complicated" is still the better choice.
Out of curiosity: Does the little ARB compressor put out enough air to reinflate up to 33" tires (at least enough to get home) when you're done on the trail? I think thier literature says it does (haven't checked recently), but Marketing does not always live in the same reality that the rest of us do. If so, that would allow me to scratch a seperate compressor or air tank off my wish-list and fulfill another lesson from AF survival school: if your tool can only do one thing its the wrong tool.
Once again, thanks for the first-hand info and food for thought!
Lawrence [email protected]
96 Disco - Beowulf - NH, USA |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 10:02 am: |
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well, let us pose this question.
what are the effects on slick roads using dual TT's?
how about detroit rear, TT up front? i think just a detroit in the rear is a little squirley but it might be all better once you throw the front TT in.
can anyone comment on that?
rd |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 10:17 am: |
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Lawrence,
Similiar to Rob, my RR has the VC as well as ARBs frt and rear. We also visit a ski area call Seven Springs which we know very well and has many roads that are unplowed during the winter.
As Rob mentioned, on snow/ice covered road VC is really good.
Trying to make it up some of the unplowed roads is another situation. With both frt and rear locked and the road has no camber and going straight up, the RR just keeps plowing. Pretty amazing what we've made it up. As soon as the road goes a little off camber, the front end goes for the ditch. Or when it curves, you just go straight. That is when it is nice to just flip a switch make the curve or get straight again and keep going. Then hit the switch again when possible and keep on plowing.
Of course it isn't a snowmobile so yeah we've buried it in too deep of snow. Yet, that is what shovels, winches and some hot gluhwein are for!
Jaime |
Greg Davis (Gregdavis)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 10:31 am: |
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Rob, I can't reply to your question because I never ran just a Detroit. I installed both of mine in the same day, so I went from "none' to "all", with no in-between. Sorry. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 10:33 am: |
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OK some more clerification on my post.
snow is a very wide spectrum word. there is a balence point of resistance between forward travel and side slip that makes a big difference in how a vehicle acts.different snow condition need different set ups to be ideal.
OFFROAD
when snow is deep enough to give resistance to side slip say 4" or more a locker starts to be a big advantage. also when aired way down the tire becomes longer along the side then it is across the width so once again lockers work well because the resistance to side slipping is there to allow the tire to continue digging instead of sliding sideways and begining to float. on very deep snow lockers are a huge advantage because they do float. I go winter wheeling all the time. in fact its my favorite time to go. I can lock my lockers and float the whole truck on top of bottomless snow that you cant even think about crossing without snow shoes. if I unlock the lockers one side will sink and the truck will get stuck. I run 13.5" wide tires at 4psi to maximize the size of the traction pad to help the tire get on top of the snow.
ON the highway
on freshly plowed snow covered or ice covered roads(the people of upper migh wont see the actual road now till spring) at road going pressure the tire contact patch is wider then it is long. as soon as the tire breaks traction it will want to slide to the point of least resistance, in this case that will be sideways. in these types of conditions lockers will be a major hinderance because both tires will want to float togather, and there is less traction floating then when biting down
so now if you want to improve your on road snow going traction you need to increase your surface pressure and decrease your ratio of width to length of your traction pad. the way to do this is by putting taller skinnier tires on. the taller tire has a larger circumfrence making your traction pad longer. the skinny tire reduces your forward width resitance and the overall reduction in traction pad size increases your surface pressure. now in these conditions all the locker does is make the two traction pads work togather and this works against you because every time one breaks free they both do.
want to see this in action ? go talk to any company that plows for a living and they will be running tall skinny tires.
once again as I said before of course you can drive a locked truck on the street in snowy condition but in most street related snow condition open or very loose LSD is a much better way to go.
well keep it outa the ditches
thom |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 10:41 am: |
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cool explaination thom. running in deep snow is one of the times we also air down pretty far. don't have to worry about heating up the tires too much.
Jaime |
John Davies
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 11:02 am: |
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You might look at the following forum for answers:
http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=408af5a7b15113aa631127e1fa14f6eb&forumid=94
The new Wrangler Rubicon comes with a rear differential that is normally a torsen type limited slip, but is also air-lockable. The Rubi guys are just beginning to find out about driving with this axle is snow. There have been some discussions abut the pros and cons of locking it - the consensus so far seems to be to NOT lock the rear end.
My thoughts: if you _have_ to drive on a lot of snowy roads, get a limited slip, or a controllable locker like the ARB and leave it turned off. |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 12:01 pm: |
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jamie,,, you know we got big snow up at 7 springs already, and they are running a weekday season pass for $150 which is a hell of a bargain cause i avoid the place on weeekends any way.
as for the driving. if you go up route 31 to the top of the mountain and just before you crest , you make a right... that road got me stuck realll good like last winter must have been 18" of snow and i made it all the way down , crabbing left and right but once i crossed that street, i couldn't go any further. i started sliding off to the left and got close to going over the edge.
i had to winch myself back straight and then had a group of snow mobilers stop and watch, i got the obligatory "i thought those things go anyware" comments.
anyway i think you know that road and the hill maybe , casue what you described above sounds like it.
without the detroit i would have made it No DOUBT, but once straight i backed down and man it was a tough drive all the way back the way i came.
rd |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 12:02 pm: |
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greg davis , sounds like the TT made a bit of an improvement for you. intersting to note.
rd |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 12:27 pm: |
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Rob,
you've gotta ask PK about two TTs. In general, TTs' effect is just the same as that of an automatic locker, just not as pronounced.
Greg,
we've been going up some trail in San Bernardino Mts., three of us - the guy in a full size jeep with 37" baja claws and locked f&r making tracks, me following him in my disco with rear TT and 245/75 futura mudders, and then my brother in his jeep (then with 31" ATs and open-ended).
At some point, the jeep in the front just couldn't keep on the road - it kept climbing the snow berm near the up-side, and the rear was sliding off the trail. We stopped when his left rear tire was right at the edge of a cliff - and it was really scary to have the driver inch back and forth until he backed out to safety. I started looking more at what was happening to him, and on the clean icy patches he was definitely sliding sideways (where the disco felt rather comfortable). On the ice (not in snow), it was definitely effect of lockers, not tires.
Peter |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 12:37 pm: |
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RD,
Know that one also as it goes back to the horse stables. And yes, we've been stuck on that one as well. The one I'm talking about is on the other side of the mountain that goes up to the condo area. Not sure if you'll remember or not, it was the road we took to get to the top from our rental house when you visited us.
Looks like a good winter for the Springs this year. Naturally the year we don't get home.
Yep, we avoid the place on weekends also.
Hows the heater working out???
Jaime |
Greg Davis (Gregdavis)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 12:41 pm: |
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Thom, great explanation. We were in 5"-8" of snow so that would make sense. Plus I had aired down to 20 psi. I'll just avoid the icy roads in the future. |
Daniel Covaciu (Danielcovaciu)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 01:24 pm: |
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No one has yet answered: how does tru-trac front and rear work in the snow? |
Pugsly (Pugsly)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 02:14 pm: |
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I would think that a tru-trac would work pretty well on the snow, since it only drives one wheel per axle. The big thing with ice, anyway, is that you don't want all of the wheels to be driven or you will have a tendency to slide laterally. |
Alyssa
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 02:27 pm: |
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I have a tru-trac front, and I thought it worked fabulously in last week's storm. |
Tripp Westbrook (Tripp)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 03:15 pm: |
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If a tru-trac only drives one wheel per axle, how is that different than stock with a locked CDL? |
Milan (Milan)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 03:19 pm: |
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I found TTs absolutely the best for snow on road. There is not as much sideslip as with other LSDs or lockers because the TT acts as an opne diff until traction is lost and one wheel starts to spin.
On the trail, I found them to work well in the snow but many a time I was wishing for lockers. Now I have a PowerLok LSD and it's so tight that on snow its acts as a spool and on my favorite trail I was 'crabbing' more than I ever did with the TTs. |
Greg Davis (Gregdavis)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 03:32 pm: |
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Tripp, the True Trac will transfer about 75% of the power to the wheel with traction when the other starts slipping, whereas an open diff will divert all of the power to the spinning wheel. |
Tripp Westbrook (Tripp)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 03:40 pm: |
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Gotcha, thanks Greg. |
adtoolco
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 03:55 pm: |
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Hyjacking again...although my last attempt didn't generate any heat. But now that we are talking TT diffs this question has bothered me... How would TT's be an upgrade over the D2's ETC? In theory and practice, doesn't the ETC act as a limited slip diff? Adding them seems somewhat redundant.
-Chris
P.S. - I'll start a "chains" thread as I still would like more info. Although "Chains on any vehicle kick ass" is pretty strait forward... I was hoping for a little more, but I appreciate the effort. |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 04:00 pm: |
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you might also want to try a "keyword search" on "chains" to your left as it was brought up once before. could give you some more information.
Jaime |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 04:03 pm: |
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Chris,
no, ETC doesn't act as a limited slip.
The limited slip forces the wheel that's not spinning to turn, ETC forces the wheel that's spinning to slow down or stop.
Chains...
ever drove chained rig on black ice? handles like shit.
or deep deep snow? digs itself to the frame in a hurry.
peter |
E Snyder
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 05:04 pm: |
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There isn't much that helps on black ice.
Chains can definitely hurt more than help on very icy conditions. It's like driving with ice skates on. Also as Peter says, really deep snow and the truck will bury itself. But if it's not so deep that you can still hit bottom and drive forward, chains make a huge difference. Where a normal tire might pack down the snow and spin on it, the chains will eat through it and find traction. |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 06:24 pm: |
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are chains okay on clear ice? ;)
rd |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 06:28 pm: |
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jamie, i now wear gloves
rd |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 06:56 pm: |
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get the ARB Rob |
Kyle
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 07:06 pm: |
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I see it like this. I know I will get beat up for saying it but its what I have come to believe. If you are a experienced driver who drives really well the locker will only improve all of your driving in these trucks. On road and off. If you are a beginner or just lack the connection between human body and the mechanics of a vehicle then the locker will just kick the living shit out of you...
Kyle |
muskyman
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 07:13 pm: |
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i agree to a point.
but if i put you on a icy road and timed you I'll bet you personally could drive it faster with open diffs then with lockers.
when i used to autocross 4 wheel drift was fun but slow
but then again if i learned anything the last few days around here it was dont mess with the adminso you must be right |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 07:13 pm: |
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Quote:I know I will get beat up for saying it
Kyle, is it a substitute for an S-word?
Can a Disco be driven safely on a twisted mountain road covered with black ice, with lockers in both ends and full roof rack of geat?
Sure. But it's gonna be one hell of a slow ride.
If you're up to the peer pressure of a line of open-ended Chevy pickups and Subaru wagons behind you (in California, you'll have to pull over and let them pass if there's more than 5 of them), that's the game.
peter |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 07:14 pm: |
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LOL Thom, you beat me there.
peter |
Kyle
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 07:15 pm: |
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You are both absolutely right. But "Fast" aint my thing anymore , knowing I will get there and back is....
Kyle |
Milan (Milan)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 07:39 pm: |
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Kyle,
I don't know how to rate my driving experience but an expert I ain't. I'm not a beginner either, so let's say intermediate. I totally agree about the lockers making a good driver even better off-road. Also just like Musky, I find driving with lockers no problem. I can do it easily. On road, however, I just don't like the auto lockers.
FWIW, with an auto, I could absolutely live with a Detroit in the back and TT in the front on dry pavement but on ice I still have to try it. With a manual I hated even the dry pavement with that DL in the back. All that bucking and jumping, "yeeeeehaa". Yeah, right! No thanks.
So, anybody have an auto with f/r TT/DL combo and drives on ice a lot? I bet you loose the rear more often than not but I'd like to hear the experiences with locking/unlocking of that DL. I'd especially like to know what happens on an off-camber (the wrong way) 35-55 mph turn/ramp when you get off the gas and on again.
Hey! Another conversation I can't seem to stay away from for long. |
Kyle
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 07:49 pm: |
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Well , I dont drive on it allot but I do drive on it some and I really have no issue. Ofcouse I am not the most aggressive driver in the world but I am not exagerating at all when I say I was doing 55 up the road the other day that was covered with a snow/ice mix that was partially plowed partially not...
I find tht locking all the wheels together gives me some nice braking in it too. You dont get that front wheel locking shit..
Kyle |
adtoolco
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 08:24 pm: |
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FWIW I will add the only experience I currently have. Being a novice and my D2 being my first offroad vehicle I was craving a little snow to test the mods I added and see if they made a difference vs. stock. (M/T's vs. Stock GY's and a cdl) I found a nice open parking lot with some snow mounds as my test track. The m/t's were deffinitly better than the gy's but not to the point of confidence. I would still be cautious even with the better tires.(I plan on siping the middle lugs of the m/t's this weekend to see if it helps)I then lowered the airpresssure to about 15lbs and found the difference dramatic. Much less wheel spin and better braking. I then engaged the cdl and magically had the power to fishtail and make pretty donuts where as unlocked I really coudn't. It was damn fun but I discovered some invaluable info.
-chris |
muskyman
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 08:46 pm: |
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Kyle,
i agree with locking the tires togather on braking, and locking the CDL on really slippery conditions helps the ABS work better. and a full locker in just the rear makes you able to grab a ton of pedal and still keep the vehicle straight because to lock any one tire you need too lock three tires. both rears and one front.with a selectable you could lock it up for braking situations such as a long slippery downhill to a stop sign.
but then again i am a ARB fan
thom |
GregH
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 09:48 pm: |
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Andrew Clarke-BTW, you're right, I'm wrong-3 lockers on early quattros. Torsen center diff started in '87.
GregH |
Rich Lee
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 11:58 pm: |
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Actually the early Quattros had 2 lockers, center and rear diff. The front was always open. It had a knob on the center console. First position locked the center diff, second position also locked the rear diff. The manual recommened using them only to get unstuck, and revert to full open position ASAP. It was a little more fun to drive "tail out" with both locked on gravel roads, but I don't think it was any faster.
Our previous tennant had an 84 4000 quattro. He found out the hard way that locking both on our ice-covered, crowned driveway only put him off in the ditch when he tried to give it "more Welly" to make it up the hill. It was easier to pull him out with my Disco with the CDL unlocked.
The reason why Audi went to Torsens (much like TTs) is that they were simpler and more stable on snow & ice, where more Audis are used. The complaints from owners that would bitch about their "legendary" quattros getting stuck or sliding off the road wet WAY down after that.
While driving up Mirror Gulch and Widow Maker on the 96 LRNA Moab "Adventure", I asked Bob Burns (head of off-road driving instruction for LRNA) why Rovers didn't have locking diffs, like many of the Toyota Land Cruisers. His response was mainly for reasons of "reliability" (sometimes an oxymoron for Land Rover), and more importantly safety on snow. He said most 4x4 owners, even Rover owners would never take the time to both understand or experience the principals and advantages of locking diffs. They would tend to use them inappropriately (if at all). He said the system had to be a "no brainer" for most people, which is why they went with ETC. He also felt that wheeling with open diffs and lots of articulation would teach one to be a more "elegant" off-roader, with less potential to damage to the vehicle or the environment (they are very serious about the whole "Tread Lightly" thing).
Bob went on to say that anyone who regularly went beyond the abilities of a stock Rover would be a serious off-roader who would install lockers on their own (usually after the warranty was up).
If I had the funds, I would put TTs (or ElecTracs, if they ever make them for Rovers) in the front & rear of our Rovers and be content with that. |
E Snyder
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 12:52 am: |
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"full roof rack of geat"
I wish I had some geat.
"He also felt that wheeling with open diffs and lots of articulation would teach one to be a more "elegant" off-roader"
Keep the grey poupon shit outta here. I want a truck that will flat out get the job done. Not that he cares , but I'm with Kyle. Lockers are better than no lockers, no matter what flavor. Just learn how to drive with 'em. |
Rich Lee
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 03:42 am: |
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Enoch,
"Elegant" was his phrase, not mine. It simply means driving smoothly without a lot of vehicle damage.
I don't see the connection with either Grey Poupon or Shit in any of the above. Except for maybe the high cost of that trip, which a friend paid for in my case. It's nice to have a few "elegant" friends as well.
Flat out getting the job done is more a function of the driver than the truck, which was Bob's point. i.e. learn to drive what you have first, then make it better. Not everyone above is convinced that their lockers work better in SNOW and ICE than open diffs, which is the point of the thread and the reason behind LR's reluctance to put them on mass-marketed trucks. I don't think anyone would dispute the advantages of lockers in nearly all other conditions.
Musky gave a superb explanation of the hows & why's of snow driving. If I really needed months of good traction on snow and Ice, I would get a set of studded Nokian Hakkapeliitta LTs in either 225/75 or 215/85-16 on steel wheels (D1 or D2)BEFORE I would invest in lockers. |
Kyle
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 07:52 am: |
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Well Rich , there is alot you dont take into consideration. What are you trying to avoid in the ice and snow ? Slipping off the road ? Losing "Control" ? Well , I got news for ya , its gonna happen and you left your "Control" at home in the driveway when you drove off..
I keep the disco on the road but I also know at the same time that if I have to seek another path (Median , ditch , woods ,etc) its really no big deal. I just pick a line no differntly then I would if driving off road and keep on keepin on. People stop short on you , people pull out in front of you , people do all kinds of dumb shit that you cant predict and you certainly cant correct for on ice and snow.
To think you are going to get some tires or some schooling to prevent any of this is obsurd and I notice that like always , everyone thinks best case scenario. Well , that thinking is just plain foolish. Dont spend all your time thinking about how you can make you and the truck flawless in icey/snowy conditions. Think about how well the truck will recover when the real world takes over and things arent so flawless any longer..... Now when you go into that ditch and you are cross axled like no body's buisness what would you rather have ? Your studded tires or a nice set of lockers ??
Kyle |
Joe M. (Little_Joe)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 08:24 am: |
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"So, anybody have an auto with f/r TT/DL combo and drives on ice a lot?"
I have that combo in my Toyota p/u and live in the snowbelt east side of Cleveland. People can rationalize all they want, but it absolutely sucks in ice - I'd rather walk.
A lot of this discussion is influenced by transmission type, weight bias, and vehicle type.
An auto •••••• w/ a rear auto locker is inherently "smoother" than a 5-spd. The AT not only absorbs some of the backlash of the SoftLocker, but because you tend to apply torque more evenly - by not depressing the clutch - the SL does not lock and unlock *as much*.
Weight bias toward the rear helps. I actually shovel snow into the bed of my pickup and carry two 33" spares on steel wheels to help keep the rear planted. My uneducated guess is the Disco's extra weight out back should help; cargo weight would probably be a good thing too.
Still, on ice, the rear will walk as both tires spin. The front TT has helped me in certain situations, and has hurt in others. Specifically, on a severely crowned ice-covered road, my truck goes sideways as the TT engages. Letting off the gas and easing back in helps.
I'll be using my Disco as my DD and roadtripper and some moderate wheeling and no way will I put a SL in the rear.
joe |
Kyle
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 08:25 am: |
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That would be wonderfull if we were talking about a Toy truck wouldnt it Joe ?
Kyle |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 09:06 am: |
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man, I don't know what type of "ice" y'all are driving on. it don't matter what you have or what you're driving in if the road is ice. I've slid into a ditch from a dead stop because the road had a crown on it. all four wheels have spun trying maybe a 0.5% grade. and then slid backwards into a ditch. thats ice. and studded tires only help when the ice is mm thick and you can dig down to something and on level road.
snow and ice together is a whole different game.
there is no "driving" on ice. unless maybe you're on a level frozen lake with spikes on your tires.
Jaime |
Greg Davis (Gregdavis)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 09:23 am: |
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FWIW, I have never experienced the "bucking" or "Banging" from my Detroit. You hear it click when driving in slow circles, but I have never "felt" or heard it pop or bang. Perhaps I'm just lucky. |
Joe M. (Little_Joe)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 09:43 am: |
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"That would be wonderfull if we were talking about a Toy truck wouldnt it Joe ?"
Since we're discussing the SL/TT behavior on ice, yeah it is germane - vehicle type notwithstanding. Sorry for trying to be helpful, now let's get back to Audis.
joe |
Kyle
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 09:51 am: |
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Considering the weight and how its distributed on each vehicle its not even in the same zip code is it ?
Kyle |
muskyman
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 10:05 am: |
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Quote:there is no "driving" on ice. unless maybe you're on a level frozen lake with spikes on your tires
this just isnt the case, you may not have these conditions where you live but trust me they happen all winter long in some places and once in a very great while in others.
we have a lake house in northern wisconsin and we get glare ice roads a dozen times a year. cross the boarder into upper mighigan where they never use salt and the roads have a huge crown on them and you get roads that are covered in glare ice 100 days a year.everyone and I mean everyone runs studded tires up there.
its not a preference thing its life or death. the roads up there very often take the lives of people that run off the roads and freeze to death in the -30 weather that blows off lake superior.
Rich Lee was right on base when he said
Quote:If I really needed months of good traction on snow and Ice, I would get a set of studded Nokian Hakkapeliitta LTs in either 225/75 or 215/85-16 on steel wheels (D1 or D2)BEFORE I would invest in lockers
this is what the people of alaska,sweden,upper mighigan,northern ontario, and every other place that deals with these icy condition does. and alot of them fill there trunks with sand and carry chains for kyles worst case scenerio. |
Milan (Milan)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 10:26 am: |
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"I keep the disco on the road but I also know at the same time that if I have to seek another path (Median , ditch , woods ,etc) its really no big deal. I just pick a line no differntly then I would if driving off road and keep on keepin on. "
Absolutely. I think you have to do that all the time no matter what vehicle.
"People stop short on you , people pull out in front of you , people do all kinds of dumb shit that you cant predict and you certainly cant correct for on ice and snow."
This is exactly the stuff I had in mind. Hence my question about the off-camber ramp/curve. I can get my vehicle down the road just fine. Lockers or not. But I encounter situations like going around the curve behind another vehicle and he may suddenly slow down forcing me off throttle. With a DL it will unlock and may jerk the vehicle. Then if you apply throttle it may jerk it again and now even loose traction by locking the two sides together. The problem I have is that it won't do it all the time every time but only sometimes and you don't know when, so you can't predict it. Keep in mind I'm speaking theoretically (mostly), speaking out loud trying to make a decission between DL and TT.
Again, I can adjust my driving style and I can also learn to live with the quirks. My point is that I enjoy certain style of driving and may not want to change it dramatically. With the TT I don't have to and it actually suited my style giving me more traction.
I also bet I won't really find out until I get the darn thing install it and drive it myself. |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 10:33 am: |
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yeah musky, agree on thin glare ice and hard packed snow studs will work.
what I'm referring to is like what is going to happen very shortly to W.PA.. freezing rain that builds up to about 3" on a road surface and everything else out there. the stuff that freezes and just builds up over time and causes trees to break plus power lines to fall. a typical W.PA. and now am finding out OK. ice storm.
there is no "driving" on ice.
Jaime |
muskyman
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 10:51 am: |
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jaime,
do they allow studs there? if so try some the studs dont need to go all the way down to terra firma to work.
I used to have a $300 jeep commando set up for ice fishing and with tall skinny tires with studs I could drive 70mph across frozen lakes in 100% control(no lockers).
the roads i described in upper migh the eastern side of the crown in the road will be 5 to 6" thick by january when the western side may open to the asphault from time to time.
studs work even on glare ice from ice storms, cant convince me otherwise I have owned them and grew up in wisconsin driving on them.
thom |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 11:06 am: |
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probably not in OK as not progressive enough to know what studs really are. not that frequent enough of an event plus Okies can't drive if its raining let alone on ice.
used them in W.PA. until the April 15 cutoff date. easy date to remember to remove winter tires. might have changed since I lived there full time. and they did help in most conditions.
just also know how many times we couldn't even get out of the driveway after a heavy ice storm.
besides - isn't Wisconsin flat?? lol.
just pulling your leg now Musky.
Jaime |
Kyle
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 11:45 am: |
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Musky , do you pronounce "Roof" like this "Ruff" ????lol
Kyle |
L_Tilly
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 12:51 pm: |
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Most of the info thown around here has really helped me out so far. For the few people who suggested "stay home", that's not what I do. As I've mentioned I've had over a decade of experience driving in winter conditions ranging from mild to extreme (anyone out there in ME or NH for the ice storm of '98?). I know how to adjust my driving for the conditions and the vehicle. I know the differences in breaking capability in snow vs. ice vs. mixed. And most importantly I know the stupidity-factor of other drivers increases proportionally to the size of their SUV and inversely to the quality of the driving conditions (shitty weather = lots of shitty drivers in Tahoes and Expeditions).
The focus of my question was what extra risk factors might I be taking on in a varity of winter driving conditions if I put a DL or TT in the back of my truck (with the unstated intent of a TT up front at a later date). Musky and several others provided their normal "solid" answers, and have made me really re-think my locker plans.
I would like lay to rest one tangent that this (and many "locker" threads seem to take). I've been wheeling off and on since I learned to drive and have used my Disco off road since I bought it a couple years ago. I have had some professional training via a couple sessions at the Equinox in VT and a lot of informal training from talented & experienced drivers in my local Rover club. I know how my rig handles and how to use it in a number of situations. I'm not looking at lockers as a "fix" or crutch but rather an enhancement. Of course, other people reading this thread may have the impression that a locker is a cure-all, so it's always a good idea to rehash some things. Kind of like putting "do not use in the shower" on hair driers, right? Actually, since this is Discoweb it's all good, right? :-)
Lawrence [email protected]
96 Disco - Beowulf - NH, USA |
muskyman
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 12:54 pm: |
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Kyle,
i'm not sure i rarely listen to myself,muskyman is a longwinded boring kinda guy
thom |
Greg P. (Gparrish)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 02:26 pm: |
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Anyone that is unsure or wants to test their setup can just come visit the rover guys up in the Philly and PA areas.............
Last week we got about 8+ inches of snow, and today we are getting freezing rain and ice.
Fun, fun.
gp |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 02:44 pm: |
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studded tires rock on ice... i think they are illegal in CA all year round, though.
peter |
E Snyder
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 03:50 pm: |
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Rich, I knew the "elegant" part wasn't yours. I just roll my eyes at "proper" rover folks sometimes, even though I'm a rover fan. My comment was not at all directed to you.
I grew up using studded tires every winter in the mountains of WV on front wheel drive cars. They do really well on snowy highway conditions, as people here have noted. My old man still drives everywhere with a front wheel drive sedan and a set of studded tires.
On the set of trac-edges I have, there are holes for studs. Studs can be taken out easily, with a narrow screwdriver. If they can be set as easily, you could pop in the studs when you're going to be spending any amount of time in winter weather, and then take them out later! I've thought about trying it, but in VA, I'm not driving on snow for any long enough period of time. |
Todd Phenneger (Toddp)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 03:53 pm: |
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Heya guys, I have to chime in here.
I havent read every post but I've read about 60% of them so I think I can reply now.
1) I have 3 Audi Quattros and drive them through all sorts of snow conditions. Even Ice driving schools which we do every winter.
2) Some Audi's use Torsens, some manual lockers accuated by a vaccuum switch, some use both.
a) Early 4000quattro, 5000q. Had lockers front and back.
b) 80q/90q and 200q (newer version of 5000, 89' on) These used a Torsen center Diff and a manual rear locker that would disengage at 5mph. Not that last speed, it disengages for a reason.
c) Audi V8 (torsens center and rear, my favorite beast in the snow, very fast)
d) A6/S6 early. (Torsen with manual locker in back and 5mph defeat.
E) New Audi's. Torsen center and EDL "Electronic Diff lock" which I hate because it doesnt work in reverse.
Also, I believe the True Trac is basically a Torsen, or at least seems to operate like one.
NO to my message. Whomever said they were on the Highway plowing through snow in a 200 with both diffs must be wrong (unless the car was modified) as the rear would have unlocked at 5mph. The reason why is that on the Highway the car will Understeer Horrendously with the rear locked. You have to re-tune your driving to drive sideways. Very fun on back roads but not on the Highway. Basically the car pushes hard on turnin, then you lift the throttle inducing slide in the rear, then you punch it and put all 200+ hp to the tires and let the rears swing wide and steer you around the corner. Weeee.
An the Rally cars we run locked center and rear and sometimes fronts. They dont turn really well unless your going sideways. :-)
HOwever, the V8 with the rear Torsen seems very good in all snow conditions. This would be most similar to a RRC with VC and a rear True Trac I believe. This is the setup I plan to do on my Discovery.
Basically, it seems we are all in agreement that a locker in back can have some seriously negative effects on plowed snow, shallow snow but is overcome in deep snow. I agree.
But I'd really like to know what the True Trac is like in the front. Do you guys runnign True Trac's F&R get any crabbing effect?
Thanks
TOdd
94' LandRover DIscovery
84' Audi 4000turbo quattro
83' ur-q. (two of them) |
Todd Phenneger (Toddp)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 04:20 pm: |
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Couple more things to add,
Attention Alyssa: (read bottom Alyssa)
If anyone watns a LONG BORING read about the effects of the switch to the Torsen Center diff in Audi's, Go to www.audifans.com and go to the archives and view the TORSEN LIST. Its mostly argumentative but basically, in regards to the switch causing Less vehicles to go off road, thats mostly correct. 98% of the time the Torsen is superiour as you dont have to lock it and it works so well. Sort of like the VC in the RRC. There are those that have been bitten by what is known as the Spider Bite though. It tends to happen in low cf (coefficient of Friction) situation such as a rainy road and at high limits of cornering. Basically what happens is the Torsen gets confused, sends power to the end that has traction, at 95% cornering this transfer of power can occasionally cause a loss of traction at the other end, then the torsen transfers power again. The end result is a Crab Walk off the track (this happens often at the track, not often on the stree and some cars seem more vulnerable due to different wheelbases.) I have long believed that applyingthe brake and sliding a bit then reapplying power would fix it but I have never had the opportunity to experience it. Nor do I know if I would have the time to brake and reapply power.
Anyhow, just thought that thread may be an interesting one for some of you Technophiles. :-)
Alyssa: How do you like the True Track in front only. I am considering True Trac Front for know and then maybe adding an ARB later. I'm hoping it will cure my understeer out of corners when the inner front tire starts to spin in rain or snow and the center diff is unlocked.
Any comments on this? |
Andrew Clarke (Aclarke)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 06:08 pm: |
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Todd: It was I who was in the Audi with the locked differentials. However, my brother-in-law was driving, so I can't comment on how it handled. I was busy scraping the inside of the window with a heated scraper as his defroster was broken (with 5 people and a dog in the vehicle).
Also, it's an Audi 5000, not 200. Either an '86 or '88, can't remember. |
Rich Lee
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 09:28 pm: |
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Enoch,
Don't worry, I would hardly call myself a "proper" Rover owner. Trouble is, I can't post the stories and pictures of the "improper" things I have done (some of my patients visit this site). All I can say is that no harm came to any person, no landscape was seriously damaged and no felonies were comitted. I will have to keep some of my "wild side" a secret (and no Garrett, it would not interest you).
Seriously, can studs actually be installed and removed wiith simple hand tools? Can this be done repeatedly and will they stay in (With reasonable driving)? To be clear, I am talking about TIRE studs here.
Please let me know if this can be done. Musky what is your experience on this?
Rich Lee
(former "Yooper" and participant in the "Press On Regardless" Rally) |
muskyman
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 12:18 am: |
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Quote:Seriously, can studs actually be installed and removed wiith simple hand tools? Can this be done repeatedly and will they stay in (With reasonable driving)? To be clear, I am talking about TIRE studs here
most the studded tires I'v used where very inexpensive retread studded snow tires. I know that you can remove the studs but I believe once they wear enough to start throwing them there isnt much you can do. i never spent more then $50 or $60 bucks a skin so pitching them when they are worn was easy.
i do sipe all my tires and i think it makes more sence for a street tire unless you spend huge amounts of time on frozen roads, but from what i found on the web there arent many states that still allow studs.
I just did a google search on studded tires and there is alot of intresting stuff out there.sorry I cant help you more? |
E Snyder
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 09:05 pm: |
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Similar to Musky, I've only removed studs, to get a little more life out of a tire. That is easy enough. Getting them back in, and to stay, I don't know. Some sort of a small punch, with a concave or drilled out face would work, I think. Next time I'm home in WV I'll get some and try it! |
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