Brake squeal. Not pad debate!

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Author Message   eburrows Posted on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 11:57 am:    We all have squealing rovers. We've been over the 'which type of break pad is best' discussion a dozen times. I've got what I think is a new question. Some background: When I last replaced the pads on my disco2, I used Mintex type pads. They stop fine, and for about a month, didn't squeal. Just like the stock pads. When I installed the new pads, I used a spray-on anti-squeal goop, which was very easy to use. Here's my original question: Can I re-apply the anti-squeal goop? Simply take the pads off, spray them again, and put them back? Will this help? Thanks, Erik G. Burrows 2000 Disco2 (Squealin' like a pig)   eburrows Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 12:05 pm:    Also, if anyone feels inclined to tell me, why is it 'mostly' the rear brakes that squeal?   Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 12:15 pm:    I don't have any experience in this field, but can't you just spray it one the disk, through the holes in the wheels? 5 second job?   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 12:26 pm:    Dean, The goop goes only on the back of the pads. Applying the anti-squeal goop to the rotors would not give positive results.   eburrows Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 12:30 pm:    Right, that's what I'm asking. Can I re-apply the anti-squeal goop to the backs of the pads?   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 12:37 pm:    I don't see why you couldn't re-apply the goop. In the future, you might want to stick to the Genuine Land Rover pads or their true OEM equivalents.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 12:46 pm:    >"Also, if anyone feels inclined to tell me, why is it 'mostly' the rear brakes that squeal?" the front brakes are too busy stopping these land whales - they don't have time to squeal. The rears, however, are just along for the ride and they get bored so they like to squeal to pass time. -Blue shrieking rear OEM pads with 80k miles on them, thank God my rear windows don't work   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 12:53 pm:    Erik, Also double-check the orientation of your rear pads. The Genuine LR rear pads come with an anti-squeal backing on them that contacts only half the pistons. If you install the pads backward, the anti-squeal backing will contact the wrong side of the piston.   eburrows Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 12:55 pm:    I'm running Mintex pads now, which don't have the anti-squeal backing, and need external anti-squeal goop. But I remember the OEM pads, and their backing covered the entire pad. They did have a small notch cut into the pad material itself however.   Curtis Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 01:20 pm:    Erik, Toss the Mintex pads and get LR Genuine while you still have your sanity Dean - you crack me up Curtis   eburrows Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 01:31 pm:    Not a pad debate remember! Here's my general concept about brakes and rovers: Rover brakes squeal, badly, no matter what pads you use. So, my questions go more to other options. Possibilities? 1. Re-application of anti-squeal goop 2. Regular deglasing of rotors 3. Somehow shifting more braking force to the rear 4. Ear muffs   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 01:36 pm:    try re-gooping and may also try beveling leading edge of pads but probably end up with option #4   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 01:56 pm:    Do the goop... It doesn't matter what pads you use. They all squeal.. Even the organics.. I tried all the LR pads, all the others I could find, and even just slapped on a set of organics and still after 2000 miles... Loud squeak just as the car finally comes to a complete stop.. Only thing that shuts them up is anti sieze on the back of the pad.. I remember some one saying to cut up a coke can and use that as a shim... Any body remember that and want to tell how that one works.   PerroneFord Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:12 pm:    That's weird Eric, I've got over 10k on my non OEM pads and they don't squeal at all. What did you use? -P   John C. Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:13 pm:    I did that. It worked for a while but now the squeeking is back. I agree that i does not matter which brand of pads you use...they will eventually squeek. Maybe some brands more than others... Now that I have fixed my swivel leak my brakes have started to squeek again. Maybe I should just put 90W on my rotors and pads to stop the noise. ;)   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:18 pm:    My pads don't squeak. Not even in the slightest.   eburrows Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:20 pm:    Or maybe the flintstones braking method. Just need a big hole in the floorboard. John, by 'I did that.' you mean you re-applied the goop? How long did it last? I'd hate to have to do that every 5k miles or so, but it's better than the 'hey you need new brakes' comments from toll booth attendants I get!   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:20 pm:    Don't remember off the top of my head what brand.. They don't squeak all the time.. Just enough to get on my nerves.. And only when I am almost all the way stopped. Not all the time or durring the entire breaking process.. I have wasted some bucks on pads as I have been trying all the ones that I could get my hands on and they all squeak.. It very well could be that I need new roters as mine are slightly groved and worn. But, I don't have the money to pay to have it done and I don't feel comfortable pulling all the hubs apart yet..   John C. Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:21 pm:    That's because you have a real LR... Must be a CA thing...all the smog gets into the pads and makes them not squeal...heheh   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:24 pm:    Erik, I never reapplied the goop. My first set of rear pads lasted me over 70k. They never squealed until they were at the very end of their life. I replaced them with another set of Genuine LR pads. No squeal at all thus far, but only about 5k miles on them. Neither set had the goop on them.   eburrows Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:26 pm:    Oh John Lee, make with the pad/rotor config. Also, for how long have they not been squealing?   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:28 pm:    Well the first set that came with my truck didn't squeal either.. But, every other pad after that has. I even let the dealer slap a set on in hopes that they had some trick to keeping them quiet.. Nope.. They didn't.. So now it is an every two week ritual of re-gooping the rear pads..   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:29 pm:    As I said before, Genuine Land Rover. As I said before, they don't squeal. They squealed only when they were at over 70k and at the very end of their life. I should have replaced them well before they even began to squeal. The pad material was razor thin when I replaced the pads.   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:35 pm:    genuine land rover, aren't those the lockheed ones?   eburrows Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:35 pm:    My first pads squealed throughout their life. You got the one good set of calipers John Lee, and Eric, you got the one good set of pads. Ok, (not willing to give up just yet) if the reason the rear pads squeal is that they are not doing much braking, can that be fixed? Is there any way to send more braking force to the rear?   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:37 pm:    sure, pull off the front calipers I'm only kidding..   eburrows Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:40 pm:    Well, you bring up a good point. If the front brakes are less effective, then the rears will take up the slack, somewhat. What about putting kevlar pads up front, which are less effective when cold. That way, arround town, when braking is less intense, the OEM/Mintex/whatever pads do more work, but on the freeway, the kevlar pads will warm up and do more. Or am I headed down the road of sillyness?   Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:44 pm:    Erik, if you have tried other brake pads and still have the squeal, then you might be getting the noise from additional parts of the brake: 1) Try putting a smear of high temp grease on the caliper pins, being careful not to contaminate the pads or rotor. 2) Clean the rotor with brake cleaning detergent - if it has grime all over it this can cause squeal. 3) Make a shim and fit it between the pad and the caliper. Dean   Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:45 pm:    The Lockheeds I have only squeel first thing in the AM the first time you use them and are silent after that. I'm thinking a bit of surface rust on the rotors due to the marine layer we get here in West LA.   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:46 pm:    Erik, Do you do any routine maintenance of your brakes? Do you wash them out every time you wash the car? I spray water into my calipers as a matter of course whenever I wash my truck (and I always at least hose down my truck after every run) and all sorts of brake dust and trail debris flows out of the calipers with the water. If you do this and make sure your rear pads are installed correctly, I don't see why your rear brakes wouldn't perform exactly as mine do.   eburrows Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:47 pm:    Dean, 1 & 2 make sense. I'll look into them. I know I've read about brake shims, but I'm not sure what they're for. Simply to take up room, or are they supposed to help make the fit better between the pad and caliper?   Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 03:06 pm:    Erik the shim is just the same as the anti-squeal "goop" as you call it (I totally misread your first message)- going in the same place - it just lasts longer. Its just a more effective vibration damper. I am only recalling the ones I had on the Ford that were locked in through the brake pad pins. Its an insulating plate that prevents the vibrations carrying back further the sound vibrations. Another thing - with the anti-squeal, are you using the stuff that should be allowed to cure first?   John C. Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 03:12 pm:    "Another thing - with the anti-squeal, are you using the stuff that should be allowed to cure first? " Good point Dean, I never let the goop cure and that might've been my problem. I'm going to give that a try. One more thing, someone had mentioned something about sanding the edges of the rotors. There is some buildup on the edges of the rotors that might cause some noise, is that true?   Bill Bettridge (Billb) Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 03:37 pm:    I know you don't want a pad debate - but at least in my situation and two other Disco's I've out rear pads on - used soft organic pads and no squeal ever under any conditions. In each case have retained OEM pads on the front. Bill   Curtis Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 05:14 pm:    Eric, You are right. This is not a pad debate. The only pads to use are Genuine LR...no dabate. I don't have any particular allegance to LR products. It is simply that they work and work well. They are mated to your rotors and they seldom squeak. One overlooked point is one that John made is to wash the brakes frequently. I have a pressure washer and once a week - rain or shine - I spray the crap out of the brakes. All over. It is amazing what pours out of there. You can put in your aftermarket pads. Then every two weeks you can pull the wheels off and put in Coke cans or new goop....or you can just get the right pads to begin with. Just a thought, C   John B Posted on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 04:10 am:    My experience was that close to the end of the 2nd set of Genuine pads the rotors were beginning to get glazed up. This is close to 70K miles. I had squeeky brakes. Since the rotors were close to the min. thickness, I replaced all the rotors, put on new pads, (non-oem by the way) used the anti-brake squeel on the back of the pads. No noise at all. This is 10K miles later. The glue, keeps the pad attached to the piston and prevents the pad from vibrating or barely touching the rotor which causes it to squeel. Also, a light braking touch or pressure causes glazing and then noise. John B. 96 Disco.   Mike B. Posted on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 07:45 am:    My rear brakes squeak first thing in the morning and after heavy off-roading. I too spray the brakes with water to keep them clean. This usually fixes the problem with the squealing. I am using the Lockheeds (from Nathan C.) instead of the Genuine. They are the same except the rears do not have the anti-squeal pad. I used the goop and let it cure for about an hour. Thanks, Mike B.   Mike B. Posted on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 07:57 am:    Here is my theory on why the rear brakes squeal (un-scientific observation): The rear brakes squeal because of vibration of the pad or the pins that retain the pads. The front brakes are less prone to squealing because they have dual pistons and a larger surface area. The rears only have a single piston and less surface area. Rounding off the edges of the brakes sometimes helps eliminate the vibration. Also, the shims try to put the brake pad at a slight angle to the rotor so the pad contacts the rotor a little at a time (to help prevent the vibs from starting). I think the goop serves more like a shock absorber to stop the brake pad from vibrating. The harder the pads are in the rear, the more likely they are to start squealing. Also, my Disco never really seemed to squeal, while my friend's always does. He's turned the rotors to no avail. I've known people who have even replaced the rotors and still had the squealing. I have also heard that applying a little hi-temp lube to the pins helps eliminate the squeal. Also, I replaced my springs when I replaced my pads. Nathan C. carries the spring kits. I'm beginning to think the problem is with the tolerances in the caliper itself; the pads may fit too tight, too loose, or at improper angles. However, the tolerances are too small for me to be able to come to a better conclusion. Again, this is just my obversations on the subject. Thanks, Mike B.   Scott (Scott_Bowden) Posted on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 08:28 am:    When my wheels get dirty the squeal will start. I just spray Castrol super clean through the wheel and wash all that stuff out. No more sqeaks!   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 09:46 am:    mine just squeak.. Dirty, clean, wet, dry, hot, cold.. Doens't make a difference.. Either did the pad types.. Only thing that fixes it is a bi weekly dose of anti sieze..   Stan Posted on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 05:18 pm:    We have a 1998 discovery and replaced the brakes and rotors all LR parts and the sqeak is horrible on the rear brakes. The original pads on the car as built did not squeak. It sounds like you just have to live with it although cleaning might help. We tryed deglazing but it came bakc in short order. I hate to pay the dealer $90.00 a pop monthly or so. It does stink though that a world class car co can't make brakes that don't sqeak.   Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Posted on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 07:19 pm:    Eric next time (and I am not sure if you are already doing this) let the antisqueal set for a night before you re-install them. Lay it on thick too.   p m Posted on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 08:00 pm:    May I chime in? I guess I have exactly average luck with brake squeal - disco is silent, but the void in the world sound picture is neatly filled with the rangie's brakes' squeal. So far, i tried: - two different sets of pads, semi-met. and organic (s.m. was intolerable even with windows closed and stereo on full blast) - resurfaced rotors with organic pads - changed hub seals, 'cause of suspected oil contamination - two different noise-suppression compounds on the backs of the pads - edges of the pads filed smooth - surface of the pads and rotors deglazed Guess that covers it. Each of these actions brought temporary elimination of squeal, but it always comes back with a vengeance. It takes 20 min in city traffic for the pads and rotors to completely warm up and be ready to ensonify the environment. The only side benefit is thorough enjoyment of seeing a guy in a red Ferrari next to me cringe in pain, 'cause my squealing brakes are two feet from his left ear. That happened every day this week. My eyes and ears are wide open for any suggestions. Peter   eburrows Posted on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 08:11 pm:    Well, yesterday I sat with the hose on the brakes for a good five minutes each. Some crap did come out, but not too much. I'd say my squeal is 40% better. Not less often, just less loud. Next is the re-gooping. I'm going to let those sucker's cure for at least two hours. I'm also going to clean the calipers super well, and maybe round the pad corners a little. Then, I'm going to power-wash the pads every day for a week. Then once a week. If that doesn't fix it, I'm going back to OEM pads. If that doesn't fix it, I'll try shims. If that doesn't fix it, I'm putting in a 1000 watt anti-noise system in each wheel well. I'll be a 2 mile zone of silence down the freeway.   Steve Posted on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 11:28 pm:    John Lee is correct, the stock pads are the quickest way to go if you want to avoid squeal. If you like me had your pads die over Christmas week and the dealer was closed, you went to the parts house and bought pads which did not include shims. Even gooped the brakes now squeal. I went back to the parts house to buy shims. Shims made to fit a Land Rover are not be available. I went to the dealer who had now came back from his Christmas vacation, shims are not available as a seperate sale item. The pad sets I saw at the dealer had the anti-squeal shims already attached. So I went back to the parts house to buy whatever shims they have to cut them to fit. It took me three parts houses before I found one that sold shims as a seperate sale item. I went home trimed and installed the shims. No more Squeal. ;) Been there, done that. LOL Next time OEM pads. PS. When the shim only covers half the brake piston, OEM pads, the shim goes toward the front of the vehicle when possible. It's called toeing in the pad and is used mostly to prevent squeal with bicycle brakes. It causes the leading edge of the brake shoe to touch the disc first. This pushes the pad against the piston. If the trailing edge touches first it drags the pad against the rotor and causes the pad to rattle/squeal. Otherwise cover the whole piston which seams to be just as effective. PPS I don't know if this is true but this is what I was told by a Bendix rep. Now that brakes do not use rivets as often and wear indicators, noisemakers, are not always possible, the brake material is made denser/different near the pad backing plate. That way the pad will begin to squeal before it wears out and metal hits metal. So if the breaks are starting to squeal, check them.:-)