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BillBail
| | Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 08:54 pm: | 
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So, we lifted my disco this week (Rovertym parts- 2" front & rear springs, Rancho shocks, cones, and rear upper shock mounts), but we've run into some issues-- wondering if anyone has had these problems...
First problem is after the lift the front driver's side appears to be lifted significantly more than the other wheels. We checked the spring to make sure it was seated correctly and all seems good. We thought maybe somehow we got a 3" spring, but are pretty short of ideas beyond that...anyone have any other theories?
Second, when there's weight in the rear, there's quite a bit of creaking coming from the back- I assumed I don't have to grease the spring contact points-- has anyone else run into this?
FYA (for your amusement):
Before:
http://billsdisco.quazit.com/IMG_0360.JPG
After:
http://billsdisco.quazit.com/IMG_0417.JPG
BTW, Looks much better with the 235/85 Dunlop Radial Rover R/T's!
Thanks!
BillBail |
Craig M. Highland (Shortbus)
| | Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 09:02 pm: |
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Links to your pics are dead Bill: Sorry, but can't really help on the suspension issues without seeing it in person
Regards,
Craig |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 09:41 pm: |
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Did you put the springs next to each other before you installed them to make sure they fronts and rears were the same length?
-P |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 10:31 pm: |
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Bill,
my land rover heavy duty kit had three different length springs .
the rears where the same the fronts were labled right and left .
the front left spring was about 1" longer then the right front.
the stock springs I took off where slightly different as well.
this is very common on other trucks as well. |
Mike B.
| | Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 11:17 pm: |
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Which RoverTym springs for the front did you get? I have the RR4s with 2" lift. They are the stiffer ones. Lift was pretty much the same (left to right). Also, both of my springs appear to be the same length. Also, there does not appear to be an upside or downside.
Check your front anti-sway bar to make sure that it is connected correctly. If you flipped up one of the sides during the upgrade, your vehicle will not sit level.
Also, count the coils to see if they are the same. Then I'd call John. His customer can't be beat. I have found him at his shop on Saturday morning several times. As I see it, the only other choice that you really have is to try swapping the springs.
Creaking:
There is a rubber ring on the top of your old rear springs. You are supposed to take that out and place it in the new springs. That will keep things quiet. The only creaking that you should get is when you go off-road. As the springs stretch to their max, they will become unseated. They will make noise as they slip back into their perches. You should have no noise going down the road.
Thanks,
Mike B. |
JRoc
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 03:43 am: |
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I just replaced my springs a couple of weeks ago and I got OME's. I think I remember the rears having a upside and downside but the fronts didn't. Both the fronts and the rears have a right and a left side (PS=Passenger Side DR=Driver Side). I don't know if this is only the OME's but the drivers side springs were a little bit bigger than the passenger side. When I put them on it all seemed to work out because I don't notice a lean at all and believe me I've looked! LOL Good Luck and hope this helped
PS I've got a '95 Disco Not sure if it makes a difference |
Brian Jackson (Nerover)
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 07:21 am: |
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Rovertym and Bearmach springs are not handed, but genuine and OME are. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 08:59 am: |
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mike,
mine are genuine LR .
the strangest part was the stock springs were made with three different wire diameters.
so not only were they different heights
one looks real skinny one kinda fat.
just proves the point there are many ways to get the same spring rate.
the fact they look so different is gonna add to the junk yard effect in my garage. |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 10:15 am: |
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There are only two ways to get the spring rate. Wire diameter and spring length.
-P |
Mike B.
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 10:30 am: |
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I would think the kind of metal would also affect things as would the number of coils.
Thanks,
Mike B. |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 11:50 am: |
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Not according to the spring formula. The Vanadium Steel is pretty common in springs so in the rate formula it is given as a constant. Number of coils active is missing piece...
*****
Spring Rate Formula: K= (12,000,000*W^4) / (8*N*D^3)
The 12,000,000 and 8 are constants.
W= diameter of the spring in inches. (W is raised to the fourth power in the formula)
N= number of active coils in the spring. (free coils plus ½ coil under load)
D= diameter of the coil, measured from the center of the wire to the center of the wire. (D is raised to the third power in the formula)
*****
There you go.
-P |
John Lee
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 01:15 pm: |
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Silly me. I thought the only way to measure the true rate of a spring was to take the spring to a scale and measure it. I now realize that I can use Perrone's Theorem. |
BillBail
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 04:39 pm: |
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Before we put on the front and rears we set them side by side to make sure they were the same. As mentioned above, we also noticed that on the stock springs the front driver's side was significantly taller than the passenger side which is sort of why were confused-- we expected if anything, the passenger side would end up higher if the springs were the same height.
We left the front sway bar off after the upgrade (I don't seem to miss it). I guess it's possible that the sway bar could fix the lean... we'll try putting it back and see what happens.
Thanks!
BillBail |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 04:59 pm: |
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John,
Come on man. I didn't come up with that and you know it. You don't have to give me shit every time I try to offer up something to help someone. The formula for determining spring rate is available in a hundred places and sometimes is more convenient than trying to find a place that measures springs and rates.
-P |
Kyle
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 04:59 pm: |
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No Bill , if you have the right springs in the right places then you have something wrong with the springs. You need some. The first thing you need to do is call John back and let him know what ya got going on.
Perrony , you first said there were only two ways of finding the spring rate. then you come up with a calculation pulled from somewhere off the web. I believe the calculation to be correct to a degree. It cold be usefull in take a good guess at rate. As John mentioned though. The end all be all way to do it is by compressing it on a scale. That gives you real numbers in a real life way...
Kyle |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 05:20 pm: |
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Kyle,
When the springs get made, do you think they are guessing when they use that formula? Is that not real life? I think I'd put my money on the guy who has been turning out 200 springs a day for 20 years over the accuracy of the scale down at the corner shop.
You may feel otherwise. |
Kyle
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 05:51 pm: |
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lol , A scale at the corner shop ? You dont think they build a spring using those calculations to ball park it and then measure the rate on a scale to make sure of what they ended up with ? You are one funny bastard..lol
Kyle |
John Lee
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 06:35 pm: |
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Perrone,
"Come on man. I didn't come up with that and you know it."
When did I ever say you came up with that formula? You and I both know that formula is beyond both of our little brains.
"You don't have to give me shit every time I try to offer up something to help someone."
Well, the reason I give you shit is because you mislead people. Whether you do so on purpose or not, I don't know. But you undoubtedly mislead people. If you wanted to show off that you knew a formula for calculating spring rate, that is fine. Just don't represent to people that it's the one true way to measure spring rates. And did you really that formula to help someone? Or did you offer it to show that you knew it?
"The formula for determining spring rate is available in a hundred places and sometimes is more convenient than trying to find a place that measures springs and rates."
True. But compare your statement immediately above with your previous statement: "There are only two ways to get the spring rate. Wire diameter and spring length." The two statements are not equivalent. They're not even close. One essentially says, "if you want to estimate a spring's true rate, here is a useful formula" while the other says, "one must use this formula to know a spring's true rate". The first statement is reasonable; the second one is absurd.
Formulae like the tire size calculator and your spring rate formula are certainly useful when the appropriate measuring equipment is not readily available, but they are far from being as accurate as an actual measurement. |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 09:06 pm: |
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I agree that given the two statements, it was confusing, and I didn't mean it to be. When my previous statement mentioned there being two ways to "get" spring rate, that should have said two ways to "affect" spring rate, not measure it. That was confusing and I'm sorry.
As for measuring, having a good spring scale is invaluable of course. As is having a shock dyno if you are making a living on the track. I just wouldn't expect a "local" shop to have one that was any more accurate than the formula, and it would be a whole lot easier to measure the wire an count active coils, than to remove the spring and run down to the local shop and have them measure the rate(s).
Fair enough?
Kyle, I guess I should have gone into comedy! But seriously, you think that spring formula is a ball-park estimation? Seems that with the millions of springs that have been made, the engineers would be able to have something better than a rough estimate... don't you think?
-P |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 01:29 am: |
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i agree perrone, analytical data of a specific metal wound at a known pitch and length should be easy to calculate.
there are programs that are written to tell the rotational stress on a skyscraper during an earthquake while experiencing a windstorm...
seems like figuring out a spring rate should be elementry in comparison.
sure there will be variences in the springs when using 'cheap' material.. but lets be real about it.
rd |
muskyman
| | Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 03:34 am: |
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hell the spring guys dont look at formula
they look at graphs that lay it all out so they can cut the length of wire and get to building the spring.
they would not waste the time on the formula
because they have not changed in 100 years.
they work every time in this hole damn universe
thats how it works!
but then comes joe twisting shmoe
and he misses by 1/2" on wire length
forgets to flat pene the end of the wire and the whole predictable result shit goes out the window.
thats why checking the spring rate with a scale is still important to ultimate quality. |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 10:31 am: |
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Muskyman,
I agree completely. And like I mentioned before, checking on an accurate scale is probably preferable to using the formula, but access to an accurate scale that can exert a ton of force or more isn't always easy to find!
You're description also stresses the importance of buying from a good manufacturer. When I was talking to Hypercoils about their springs, they said they have a accuracy within 3%. From looking around, other manufacturers quote accuracy within 10%. That means on a 200# spring you could get 180-220! Its possible, though not probable, to think your going from a 180 pound spring to a 200 and end up with a 220. That was unacceptable in my book. I also don't have access to a spring tester within a 3 hour drive, so I was willing to pay the premium from Hypercoils for the closer tolerance.
Your point, Kyles Point, and Johns point are similar and very important though, and any confusion to that is my fault and I apologize. I didn't mean to represent that testing the springs physically was not viable, just more difficult for many owners and not necessarily more accurate depending on the spring maker depending on the accuracy of the testing equipment.
-P |
Kyle
| | Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 11:52 am: |
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Rob , in a world full of constants where man is absent you can probably comepletely count on those equations. Throw a man in the middle of the process and it all gos out the window. It then just becomes a ballpark , someplace to start..
Kyle |
michel
| | Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 12:46 pm: |
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Good God Men, this isn't rocket science it's a fringen spring. Ballpark is OK. Good manufacturer better. :-)
Michel |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 01:05 pm: |
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Kyle, since you don�t work in a world of metallurgical constants and I do I will forgive your ignorance.
I realize that some spring makers are rednecks with a cheap machine that are making these things in a garage somewhere. Those places I don�t think these places are into using equations to get very close to their "final result" they are using the trail and error method a lot more than the people working in a world of precision.
I am saying that in the real world you can get damn close to the correct spring rate if you use good math, quality engineered metal and good machine. In other words take "man" out of the equations as much as possible.
how small is your ballpark is the question 
rd |
Kyle
| | Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 01:26 pm: |
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If that were the case Rob , then all these cases of spring sag are figments of peoples imagination? Yes , I am sure thats what it is.. Silly wabbit..
Kyle |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 10:48 pm: |
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i bet we could get springs that dont sag if QC was better. |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 10:26 am: |
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QC was better-great comment Rob.
What was it that Deming said, something about engineering the desired results in before one begins production, rather than inspecting out poor quality.
I suspect that Mr. Deming would support the formula, and then using objective data to ensure that each subsequent spring exhibited the desired characteristics, to a great degree negating the need for finishded product testing.
I for one do expect six sigma quality when I buy something. When I make something, I don't-until it goes into production, by which time, I would certainly hope I would know EXACTLY how many coils to use.
Without the ability to measure, we cannot KNOW! (with apologies to Lord Kelvin)
Be that before production begins or after.
Paul |
Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp)
| | Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 11:40 am: |
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Six Sigma pertains to designing a production process that can produce a desired specification with low variability (3.4 PPM defects). It really doesn't have anything to do with the actual design itself.
Land Rover and Six Sigma shouldn't be used in the same conversation. |
Kyle
| | Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 12:13 pm: |
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It seems my point still doesnt get acrost and everyone wants to bring up equations and drop names. Where in those equations to you see that a human has been factored in ? Where in those equations do you see day of the week or work load ? Start thinking about all the things that exist that effect product that arent in those equations and then you are getting in the right ball park.
Kyle |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 12:20 pm: |
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hehe aren't all our Disco's spec'd the same (same measurements, same formulas, same materials) and then manufactured by the hand of man? Why do some vibe with 2" lift but some don't vibe with 3"+? I thought they were all the same?! |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 12:44 pm: |
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kyle , you are right ,i truly dont get your point. do you even have one?
i know here at my work there is no difference between the quality of the metal we produce depending on the day of the week.
is there a lot of human input that goes into making a spring that i am unaware of? are they coiling these things buy hand or something?
i picture it to go something like this:
start with variables of spring you know you want. apply equation above and figure out what dia you want the wire.
purchase rod from the mill, knowing ahead of time what it will be used for you purchase a grade of steel engineered to perform well under those circumstances.
place rod in the spring machine, stand back and enjoy.
remove spring.
sell to kyle.
if spring sags , go over formula again.
repeat.
rd |
Kyle
| | Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 03:34 pm: |
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LOL , poor Rob , I think you are still trying to "Imagine" that dream world...You mentioned QC back there a bit. Well , if things are done with such consistancy , why have QC at all ? Its just wasted man (Yes a fucking man) power and they should all be layed off ? Right ?
Kyle |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 04:16 pm: |
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Kyle. like i said. i dont get your point. please tell me what it is again....
it's not too much to ask to have a spring that doesnt sag. it gets more and more expensive to close the window on what is allowable sag. the more digits to the right of the decimal point the more expensive. but also the more predictable the results will be. this is the we hole basis for ISO 9000 manufacturing.
ISO is slower and more expensive but ultimetly more accurate.
like i said, i don't know what your point is. so when you figure it out, let me know, i'd love to have to opportunity to prove it wrong again
rd |
ErikS
| | Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 08:02 pm: |
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Rob, no offense but you kind of have your foot in your mouth because it is pretty plain what Kyle's point is that he trying to get across. Not all of those "pro" factory workers are as skilled as their boss would like them to be and say it is joe shmo's first day on that particular spring machine there is the slim possibility for mistakes to be made. |
Craig M. Highland (Shortbus)
| | Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 08:31 pm: |
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On that 'sag' point, there are pre-stressed coils and non pre-stressed coils. Coils that have not been stressed in the manufacturing stage are going to sag.
Fwiw-
Craig |
[email protected]
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 10:16 am: |
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Turns out the spring rate is not effected by the type of steel. The constant used by Perrone is pretty much (not measurable by humans) the same for all steel alloys. The sag issue is like Craig says a metallurgy and manufacturing problem. The properties that effect sag do not really effect spring rate. The equations in question assume that there is no plastic deformation of the spring in use. SO once you approach the elastic limit of the material these don't do you any good. i.e. If you load the springs hard enought that they take a set then these you have deformed the material and these expressions can no longer be applied.
What did any of this have to do with the original question? Not a damn thing.
How did this turn out anyway BillBail? what was the solution? |
Greg Davis
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 10:35 am: |
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Bill, back to your question. The rear sqeaking could be coming from contact between the cones and the coils. I took the cones out and removed a wedge from each side at the top (the end pointing down once installed), starting at 1/4" and tapering out about 2" down. I used an electric angle grinder to remove the material and then hit with a coat of paint. This eliminated the contact and the sqeaking. Hope this helps. Gotta go take an aspirin. My head aches from those previous formulas! |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 11:12 am: |
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ErikS,
that is your interpretaion of his opinion. kyle doesnt like to actually come out and say what he is thinking. i'm not going to play buy his rules. if he wants to tango he will spell it out for the world to read. besides, I am not talking about redneck factories where cletus is wraping a metal rod around a telephone pole and calling it a spring, read my post above you are a little late to the party.
i am talking about precision. i am saying that if you want a spring that wont sag and has crazy properties that will let you leap tall buildings in a single bound, and you are willing to throw enough bread at it, you can have what you want. and it will all be based off of a formula.
rd |
ErikS
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 01:42 pm: |
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Rob,
I understand your point also but unfortunatly there is not enough demand for the spring that is twice the price or more of the springs currently on the market to make worth while for companies to mass produce. For custom springs made to order on a per person application that the customer is willing to pay for a custom spring made only for them then by all means it should be perfect. But I for one will not pay that much money when I can go to RTE or OME and get a set with a 5-10% margin of error that if it is on the 10% side their cust service will probly replace it. |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 03:05 pm: |
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i never said my point was practical
rd |
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