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Wes Legaspi (Wes)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 08:33 pm: | 
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I saw this in the new AB Discovery catalog, anyone have any first hand experience with it? I don't have a winch, but am just curious about it. From the picture in the catalog, it looks easy to handle compared to a regular winch cable. |
Clif Ashley
| | Posted on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:20 pm: |
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I do not have it, but I have used and seen it used many times. Its awesome. It floats in water and is super light. Much nicer to your hands and it does not have a memory so you can twist it around and leave it, etc. Just my opionion... |
Leslie N. Bright (Leslie)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 11:43 pm: |
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You have to watch which winch you use it with, because you don't want the stuff to heat up excessively, or act as an insulator (which again builds up heat) which can damage it.
But, BUT, here's the important thing: it doesn't store energy the way steel cable does... if it snaps, it drops to the ground instead of breaking windshields, etc.
-L |
Troy
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:26 am: |
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Great stuff, but don't use it on any winch that has the brake inside the drum (ie - any planetary). The rope will melt and can fail.
Troy |
Robert Mann (Oldscout)
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:31 am: |
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Anyone know of a better deal than this one:
http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/recovery/ropes.htm |
Bill Bettridge (Billb)
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 09:16 am: |
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Robert,
Call these folks Gourock (1-800-248-7295) - I picked up my 3/8 x 125 with the "fancy" yellow hook for $225 when they had an internet special. Their site doesn't currently show it - but it doesn't hurt to ask.
Bill |
Mike D1
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:51 pm: |
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"Great stuff, but don't use it on any winch that has the brake inside the drum (ie - any planetary). The rope will melt and can fail."
Troy
I called Warn Inc. and they don't recommend it. They say powering out is the worst in that it uses the break and heats the drum up to as high as 700º and this will melt the rope.
As long as you use free spool and don't power out much you might be okay. |
Lance
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 01:35 pm: |
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I have not bought it yet but I plan on it. I have a warn winch. Much safer. |
Bill Bettridge (Billb)
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 01:41 pm: |
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BTW - AB is full of shit (as usual) - it is not Kevlar - not even close...it is UHMW polyethylene (ultra-high molecular weight)
Bill |
Larry Grubbs (Larryg)
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 02:47 pm: |
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Again, don't believe everything Vendors tell you. It works fine on all Warn winches. There can be a problem overheating the rope when winching backwards down an obstacle. The brake drum on the winch will overheat the rope and potentially melt it. However, how many times have you winched backwards using the Winch brake drum? I have never done this. It will last just as long as a regular cable with responsible winching, i.e. not winching backwards all the time.
I have had mine for about a year and have had no problems whatsoever. Don't believe everything you read. Especially if there is money to be made!
Larry
'90 RRC |
Kyle
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 02:49 pm: |
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Well the little warns dont apply enough pressure to snap the yarn anyway so it should be all good... 
Kyle |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 03:26 pm: |
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>I have had mine for about a year and have had no problems whatsoever. Don't believe everything >you read.
so you are saying i should believe you?
rd |
Larry Grubbs (Larryg)
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 03:42 pm: |
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Rob,
Hey whatever man! I really don't care if any of you believe me. I have nothing to gain by voicing my experience here. It seems that 9 times out of 10 when people ask for advice they don't listen anyways. What's the point. I'm just trying to share a little knowledge and experience rather than say " I heard...", and I read that Warn doesn't recommend this. The reason companies don't recommend stuff is because of one little word "Liability". Look at Ford and the problems they have had with Firestone. Hell, according to the media every single Ford Explorer accident has had something to do with Firestone. Never mind that most drivers shouldn't be allowed out of their driveway.
Someday when I finally get some followers for my new religion I can do things my way. And I promise no mass suicides.... unless.....
Anyway, I guess I dot a little off subject there.
No hard feelings, I'm sure you were just being sarchastic anyways.
Larry
'90 RRC |
Kyle
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 03:47 pm: |
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Rob was just being Rob,,,,,,,,, Which is probably why he gets RObbed" so much....
Kyle |
Rich Lee
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 04:06 pm: |
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Kevlar is an Aramid fiber, like Nomex and it has similar heat resistance, which is why it is used in aircraft construction and in some of the better 3-layer racing suits. Also, if it "melted" @ 700 f , I don't think it would be used in competition brake bads. Kevlar can usually withstand heat up to 700 degrees F and will "disintegrate" at 900 degrees F (for info on kevlar rope, look up: http://www.lifesaving.com/store/trp_ropes_1.htm )
FYI, Aluminum melts at 575-700 degrees, depending upon the alloy. I would also worry about what 700 degrees would do to the strength of steel cable. I have a hard time believing that winch drums will reach 700 degrees without something else siezing up first. Show me some pyrometer data.
You can get real Kevlar winch ropes from maritime rigging companies, probably for less than at 4x4 suppliers. Usually Kevlar is gold in color (like my old slalom kayak).
BTW, If my winch were reaching 700 degrees while "rapelling" my Disco under load (like Heyduke in "The Monkeywrench Gang" by Ed Abbey), I would simply "McGuyver" a water-cool spray by redirecting my headlight and windshield washer jets onto the winch.
But then, I don't have a winch.
Rich. |
Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp)
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 05:16 pm: |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought most polymer winch cables are UHMWPE, not Kevlar. I dont have the data, but the UHMWPE has little to no stretch, but a low melting point. Kevlar on the other hand, being similar chemically to nylon, has some stretch to it but has a high metling point. My guess is that kevlar would have too much give to make a good winch cable. |
Ron A
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:16 pm: |
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Winch 'yarn' is UHMWPE of which PLASMA 12 (12 strand) is the most common type being sold. AmSteel-Blue was popular for a while but has since been replaced by Plasma 12 (this is according to a West Coast distributor).
I've done a few dozen pulls on 'yarn' and am always amazed at how easy it is to use compared to wire. No more cross-wrap worrys, no splinters, and you can fling it up a hill (lasso style).
The one problem I have found is that if you don't have the first couple of wraps on your drum really tight when you do a short pull the yarn will slide between strands down toward the drum and it's a bitch to pull back out.
Now this 'getting the drum hot' has got me a bit baffled. The brake on a planetary winch will engage when the drum stops and a load is still applied. So does the brake disengage only when you spool in and not out? I've never talked to a winch manufacturer but I would be interested in hearing their reasoning.
The one thing I do know is that after owning 3 winches over many years I have yet to lower ('repel') down a hill using the winch. The only time I have seen this done was on Surprise Canyon in Panamint (Death Valley area) because he was afraid to drive down (read: pussy).
For a good read on PLASMA 12 and winching go to the David Bower site (http://www.dborc.demon.co.uk/) and look on the winching info. |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:25 pm: |
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no kyle... i get "Me'd"
larry, just pointing out the irony. not really anything personal.
rd |
Robert Mann (Oldscout)
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 08:03 pm: |
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Ron A it's only a good deal if your in the UK.
I hope the guy knows winches better than HTML :D |
Milan
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 10:55 pm: |
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FWIW, I have used it for quite a while now and I have managed to get it damaged by heat several times and once it even snapped while winching myself down an obstacle. No need to "rappel". Just an obstacle which once cleared using the winch was still unsafe, so I winched back to prevent a rollover and the winch drume heated up and burned the rope enough so it snapped.
Now, you should know that it snapped just past the rollowver point otherwise it could have cost me a hellova lot more than a little fright. You should also know that it snapped as I started to drive off of the obstacle in reverse and by mistake pushed the switch into "reel in" instead of "reel out". What can I say, it was a comedy of errors that day.
My main points are that:
1) On my XD9000, with the rope on, the drum dissipitates all the heat through the sides of the drum as that's where the metal is thinnest. It gets hot enough to burn the rope and as you reel out under load, it can snap.
2) You don't have to be a winch expert to need to reel out under load. Where we winch it's quite common.
3) When the rope breaks, it really just drops to the ground.
I have since then spliced it together and placed nylon insulating rings on the side of the drum. So far so good but I have not really gotten a chance to repeat that stunt from when it broke.
Below are links to 2 pics of heat damaged rope. I don't have any of the snapped one.
http://sern.ucalgary.ca/~springl/4x4/images/MPFray-1s.jpg
http://sern.ucalgary.ca/~springl/4x4/images/MPFray-2s.jpg |
Milan
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 10:57 pm: |
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Sorry about all the typos in my previous "massage"... |
mongo
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 11:30 pm: |
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Hey Groupies...some techno-babble...or really good info...it's from the sailing world but that's where this is based...
Fiber selection is essential in choosing the correct cordage for an application. In most instances, running rigging requires high strength and low stretch. Anchor rodes require high strength and stretch to absorb shock loading, while dock lines require high strength and abrasion resistance. By combining the appropriate fibers with construction procedures, the desired rope traits and utilization are achieved.
Generally, braided ropes are lower in stretch, have a softer feel than twisted (laid) ropes and produce less friction.
Once a cordage manufacturer is selected, use that manufacturer�s size and strength guidelines.
MATERIAL (FIBER) CHARACTERISTICS
Polyester is a high strength, low stretch fiber, and when pre-stretched, provides even higher strength and lower stretch characteristics. This fiber, often referred to by the trade name Dacron, provides good abrasion resistance, maintains flexibility in high temperatures, and doesn�t shrink when wet. Use for running rigging requiring low to moderate stretch, such as mainsheets, topping lifts, travelers, and boom vangs. Spun polyester covers are fuzzy, and filament polyester covers are smooth.
Nylon has excellent abrasion resistance, high stretch, and high strength. When exposed to sunlight there is minimal strength loss, although it shrinks when wet. Its best use is in applications where stretch and shock absorption are important, as in dock and anchor lines.
Polypropylene is lightweight, has less strength than nylon and polyester, but about the same stretch as polyester. Other characteristics include low UV resistance, moderate weather and abrasion resistance, and it melts under high friction. It floats, doesn�t absorb water, and high temperatures don�t affect its flexibility. This material is ideal for towing dinghies and for rescue lines.
High Modulus Polyethylene (HMPE) is lightweight, has very low stretch, and is very strong, obtaining its strength from molecular alignment in the direction of the load during the initial stretching process. This material has excellent weather and abrasion resistance, its flexibility is not decreased by temperature, water absorption is minimal, and it doesn�t shrink. This fiber is slippery and it "creeps," getting longer under sustained loading. The core may slip when highly loaded, not making it suitable for main halyard use where halyard stability is important. It�s good for running rigging, such as halyards, sheets, guys, running backstays and checkstays, where light weight and low stretch are important. In winch and stopper use, the cover may fail before the core. Trademarked HMPE�s are Dyneema Ò and Spectra Ò.
Aramid fibers are very strong, and have low stretch with excellent creep characteristics under normal loads. They have poor UV and abrasion resistance and are fatigued if flexed over small radii (i.e. blocks) and when knotted. Twaron Ò, Kevlar Ò, and Technora Ò are trademarked Aramid fibers.
Liquid Crystal Polymers have very high strength and extremely low stretch characteristics with no creep, low water absorption, resistance to flex fatigue, and excellent resistance to abrasion. UV resistance is low. These fibers are good for running rigging that can be covered or removed from UV exposure. Vectran Ò is a trademarked Liquid Crystal Polymer.
just some reading material...
Frank |
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