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my96disco (Trevorh)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 07:31 pm: | 
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I have the opportunity to get a hand winch really cheap, and I am wondering if it is worth getting? I am hoping someone who has used one before can comment on the following specifications. Does this one have enough capacity to be worth while to be used for recovery.
Lifting Capacity - 1650 lbs
Pulling Capacity � 2750 lbs
Wire Rope � 5/16 in
Thanks
Trevor H |
Knownothing
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 09:11 pm: |
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well since a disco is almost triple those figures save your $$ or get a real big tow strap |
Knowsomething
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 09:26 pm: |
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Check out the black rat
http://motorcare.com.au/recovery2.htm |
my96disco (Trevorh)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 10:00 pm: |
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I already carry a snatch strap.
Found this in the mean time on David Bowyers site. He is talking about different hand winches but they are basically the same as the one I am looking at. (The 800) If I read this correctly the smaller one I am looking at is OK, but I should really hold out for the larger one.
Anyone?
"The 800 is ideal for all the 'smaller' off-road vehicles in the Discovery/Shogun sector of the market. It measures 535mmx260mm (21"x11") and comes with 20 metres of 8mm galvanised wire rope on a handy carrying pack. The 800 I refers to its lift capacity - 800 kilograms, or about 3/4 of a ton. The nominal pull rating is nearly one and a half tonnes.
The 1600 has a 1,600 kilogram lifting capacity, with a shear lift of one-and-a-half tonnes. This is for more serious off-road use, especially if the vehicle is a LWB, or a heavily-equipped version of a smaller model. The nominal pull rating is nearly two-and-a-half tonnes - and that's more than enough to extract the most firmly stuck vehicle! It comes complete with an 11mm wire rope." |
KnowItAll
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 11:12 pm: |
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Just get a winch. |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 11:48 pm: |
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A 60" high lift jack can be much more useful as both a recovery jack and a backup winch. Don't bother with hand winches. |
Curtis
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 12:47 am: |
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My D2 weighs 4800lbs. There is your 2.5 tons. Now think about this for a minute. Where are you when you use a hand winch for extraction? You are in the direct line of fire for when something breaks. If I was stuck and had only a 5000lb hand winch, you can rest assured that I would wait for someone to come get me or I would walk. Don't get it. Get a winch, Hi-lift, or nothing at all.
Curtis |
Russell Smith (Rusty)
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 04:19 am: |
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What a load of rubbish!!!
A hand winch is a very good compromise if you cannot afford a mounted version. A 1600kg winch is ideal for most recoveries and can be used to pull in all directions. As far a being in the line of fire, simply throw an old blanket over the rope. Also a Hi-Lift jack is a poor alternative as you can only pull a couple of feet at a time. Remember, a hand winch works underwater, and if your motor fails and also with a flat battery. Better to work up a sweat than be stuck overnight. |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 07:39 am: |
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Also a Hi-Lift jack is a poor alternative as you can only
pull a couple of feet at a time.
It's been my experience that in about 80% to 90% of the times you can get out of a situation with highlift using it as a jack. This will greatly reduce the need for a winch and if you don't already use a Highlift then I would say get one. It's just nice to know that your highlift will also serve as a backup winch if needed in a pinch. Note that the high lift is MUCH better than the JackAll. Get yourself a 60" highlift and forget the handwinch. You can use it to push, pull, lift and clamp. To me it is more useful than a come-along would ever be.
Just my two cents. |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 12:02 pm: |
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I've also noticed people knocking the use of the hi-lift as a winch because you can only use it a few feet at a time.
It has been my experience over the past few years that when I've been stuck, I only needed a foot or two to get out of what I was stuck in. Obviously I just drove there, and generally the lack of momentum after getting stuck is what's keeping me from getting out. Whether it be a rock I can't get over, or a log, or some other land feature.
I cannot fathom where a hand winch would prove more useful than a hi-lift under the circumstances I described. But then, I don't venture out into possible stucks when I am alone. If I did, I'd most certainly have a real winch on the front of my truck. |
Moe
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 12:18 pm: |
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"I've also noticed people knocking the use of the hi-lift as a winch because you can only use it a few feet at a time"
I think this is a fair criticism. The hassle of setting up the system, winching a few feet, securing, and resetting again is not an easy process, although most here make it sound easy.
I have the 60" jack and a mounted winch, but a hand winch would serve a different purpose that neither the mounted winch nor the highlift can do effectively. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 12:23 pm: |
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Well, get them all. It's only money, right Ho?
 |
Moe (Moe)
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 12:25 pm: |
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Now we're talking . . . it's only money
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Curtis
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 12:51 pm: |
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Russell,
This is just my opinion so take it as such: Hi-Lifts and walking are great compromises when you cannot afford a mounted winch. The weak link is likely in the pawls of the hand winch itself. Where are you going to throw your blanket? Over the hand winch? Draping over the line is only going to give so-so protection.
I think it is sad when people give poor advice when it comes to things that are safety related like recovery techniques and gear. Anyone who has been around for a few minutes knows that the key is not to meet the rated capacity, but to exceed it. This is some serious stuff. People get fucked up all the time be using crap like hand winches and other gear that is not up to snuff. To sit there and publicly admit that the use of a hand winch is a good thing tells me that I should take any post with your name on it without credence.
I stand by my answer. I also practice what I preach. If I am in too much of a rush to spend the extra couple of minutes setting up my recovery gear right, and using the correct gear to begin with, then I have no business off road. I reccomend the same to others. There is too much at stake to be sloppy and cheap.
Curtis |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 01:23 pm: |
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Moe,
Where do you wheel? I think the difference in geography plays a large role. In my neighboorhood, we get two kinds of stucks. The most prevalent is the 40 yard, "frame in the mud" type of pull in which case you need a real winch with plenty of pulling power. The other is the very short, "get over the rock/log/ledge pull in which the 48" hi-lift is perfectly suited.
I can see in other areas where deep snow, or a rocky area would make using a high-lift a PITA because you'd need to rig it 3-5 times to make headway. Note that I am not disagreeing with what you are saying, I am pointing out that there are different situations which require different solutions.
However, in almost all cases, the good bumper mounted winch makes this all moot. I must agree with Curtis though that all winching and extraction should be taken seriously. You could be putting your life and the lives of others at risk by using underrated equipment. Buy good equipment and use it safely...
-P |
p m
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 01:37 pm: |
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Perrone,
a Hi-Lift is a real PITA to use as a hand winch.
and a hand winch is nearly just as useless.
if you're talking 50ft in deep mud, or same in deep snow or sand, or up a 50ft 45-degree ledge, they all are useless. Yes, it can get you over a rock... but if these rocks are every 50ft, you're hosed anyways
peter |
Moe (Moe)
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 01:45 pm: |
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"Where do you wheel?"
I pretty much follow Ho's lead and stick to cyber-wheeling, but when I do go out in the neighbourhood I end up on the typical tree lined trails here in PNW. On Saturday when I had to winch it was only for about 8 feet, although on that same trail there is real danger of slipping off the side and this is where the hand winch would be useful. In those situations when a rig is sideways slipping from a trail, having the mounted winch and a hand winch combo would be effective as you can secure the rig at two points and slowly winch in or out as needed.
I'm not saying the highlift jack won't do it. Sure it will. But if you need to pull the rig 10' sideways it will be a lot more work with just the jack. |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 02:20 pm: |
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p.m.
I'm not sayin' it's ideal. But if my choices are rig the hi-lift, or walk, you know where I'm heading! I don't understand why you feel its a PITA. I can have mine rigged and ready in under 3 minutes. The bumper winch is only faster because I don't have to get it out of the truck and clamp a hook on it.
I've only used the hi-lift a couple of times for stucks, but both times it was for a very short recovery. The first was in deep sand when I need to go back up a hill. My nose was downhill and I just couldn't get enough traction to get started going back up the hill. I had just gone from flat ground to downhill, and realized I ought not have been there, but I couldn't get hack up. 3 feet was enough to get me going.
The second time was on a ledge drop off and I got hung up on the rear bumper. Less than a foot of pull was needed to get me going again. I'll fit a proper winch when I can, but the manual winch give some peace of mind. It's not a substitute for a real winch as much as it is a stop-gap. |
Steve H
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 03:01 pm: |
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tevorh, back to your original post. Here's my two cents: The hand-winch (come-a-long) you describe is a good tool FOR IT'S INTENDED PURPOSE. That being said, it's intended purpose is not to replace a heavy duty electric winch. Will it help get you unstuck? Sometimes, depends on how your stuck. Is it a usefull tool? Certainly, it has many uses. You just have to use it with common sense. Just bear in mind that your Disco wieghs in at over 4000 pounds not to mention gas, gear, and passengers, plus the added suction of mud etc... SO, I guess the short answer to your question is no, it is not a good recovery tool for a Disco. |
Rich Lee
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 06:55 pm: |
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Hi All,
I put in a lengthy post this year (on the former site)about my experience with High-Lift winching.
My viewpoint here is that the more you use a tool thoughtfully, the better you are with it.
My Hi-Lift has 2 snatch hooks attached securely to it. One at the upper end and one at the lifting jaw. This keeps the chain under constant tension and I can reset for another 4 foot pull in about 5 seconds.With me or some other strong back/weak-minded person at the jack we can pull the truck at about 2.5 feet per minute. This was timed while pulling a minimally-loaded Disco 30 feet uphill(about 10% grade), in diff-deep mud at night, in a snowstorm. My guess that there was 3000 to 4000 lbs of "load" on the system. That is not bad for human-powered winching.
Using Kyle's RE12000 winch, our speed would have been between 5 and 6 feet per minute and we would have been out in 5 or 6 minutes, instead of 12 minutes. For winch pulling data, check out:
http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/faqs/winches.html
If I need more pulling power, I'll add a snatch block (or 2) and a length of strong static rope.
Until my priorities are such that I can justify a winch, this system will have to do, but so far, it does pretty well.
I have used 4000 lb "come-along" hand winches for secondary "directional" pulls while a vehicle was being extricated with a "real" winch, but I would not rely on it as a sole pulling tool. |
Steve H
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 09:14 pm: |
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Rich, can you post some pics or a diagram of your hi-lift/snatch block setup? My feeble mind can't quite grasp what your describing. Sounds like the kind of system I need to setup though. Do you use a 48" or 60" hi-lift? |
Russell Smith (Rusty)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 04:59 am: |
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Curtis,
I, like everyone else on this thread am only offering my opinion based on my experiences. (Exactly what the original post asked for) I still stand by my opinion that a 1600kg Pull / 3200kg Lift hand winch can be a useful recovery tool, particularly when used in conjunction with a snatch block/s. I think it goes without saying that any recovery requires special attention to safety but that was not what was originally asked. I still maintain a hand winch is better suited to winch recovery than a high lift jack (I OWN BOTH). I am sure given a unrestricted budget I would NOT own a hand winch but rather a bumper mounted version but again that is not what was asked on the original post.
By the way, just how many people have had their jaw broken from the use of a high lift jack? And still you recommend them? I believe the potential for injury from the sloppy use of a high lift jack is much greater than with a hand winch.
Please yourself Curtis, don't take credence in my posts, I didn't ask you to. Just what type of hand winches are available to you in the US anyway, do you have access to Tirfor winches? Maybe Downunder we have better quality equipment available to us?
I actually agree with most of the posts on this thread and both arguments have some merit but even you must agree not all recoveries are the same and in some situations a particular piece of equipment can work better than others, but in a tricky situation, USED WISELY, even a less than perfect piece of equipment can be useful.
Russell  |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 08:55 am: |
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Russell,
We do indeed have the equivalent of the Tirfor winch here. However, 1/5 of its cost is the difference beteen it and a bumper mounted winch. The Hi-lift is approximately 1/10 the cost of the Tirfor.
-P |
Curtis
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 03:34 pm: |
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Russell,
You make a valid point with injuries happening while using a Hi-Lift improperly. I have even heard about people on this board who have nearly been killed. It is important to note that this is almost always user error and not equipment failure. The guy who wrote the original post used the words �really cheap� to describe how he was getting his hand winch. I seriously doubt it is a high quality unit. I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to suggesting people use things that are cheap to begin with. A cheap hand winch is even more dangerous.
That being said � of course the stuff from down under is more durable than what we can get up here
Curtis |
my96disco (Trevorh)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 12:30 am: |
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Thanks for the input. I guess I phrased my question wrong. I thought the Hand Winch I was looking at was a bit on the light (Pull) side, just wanted someone to confirm this.
As far as �The guy who wrote the original post used the words �really cheap� to describe how he was getting his hand winch. I seriously doubt it is a high quality unit� goes, the unit I will be getting is a Tirfor. I don�t think anyone can fault the quality of this product even if I can get it really cheap. I don�t compromise on safety just to save money.
Thanks again all for the constructive input.
Trevor |
Wendell
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 03:10 am: |
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If you want to see real hand-winching in action, get a copy of the movie "Ice Cold in Alex" (An old WWII movie that has a Series II in the closing credits). They do real hand-winching.
As for using a come-along type hand winch for recovery, it can be done and I usually have two or three in the rear of my old Series truck. Yes long pulls are a PITA!!! However they also came in handy one day when we had to get the transmision out and to a blacksmith for some minor adjustments.
As far as winching goes I rate the High-Lift about the same as a come-along. Pretty useful for the short-haul. The High-Lift can also be used as a jack, and that has been handy in the occasional quicksand, but they are dangerous.
I have seen and used bumper mounted winches, both PTO, and electric, and have seen some that were powered by hand, and they are better, but even then they can be suplemented with a high-lift, or come-along.
Best plan is to try not to get stuck, then if possible, have some one there to help pull you out. Of course the powered winch is prefered, and I would not go off-road without one, either on my truck, or someone elses.
Watch that movie though, that really is hand-winching.
Wendell Cotton |
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