| Author | Message | ||
     Bailey Hess (Bails) New Member Username: Bails Post Number: 3 Registered: 05-2003 |
...and the knocking got worse! after maintaining all the problems thus far, the engine knocking has gotten so violent i can't drive the car. for the first few minutes of driving it's fine--then a LOUD knocking that increases with acceleration kicks in. we got the lifters replaced, but nothing happend. what is going on! | ||
| Luis Constantin (Luisc) New Member Username: Luisc Post Number: 7 Registered: 02-2003 |
Sounds like a bearing gone bad. Without more detail or listening to it, can't say whether it is a cam bearing, rod, or main. Could be a oilpump too. I'm assuming you mean it's fine during cold start up. That would be because oil is thickest when it is cold and thins as it heats up thus producing a lower oil pressure. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1552 Registered: 02-2002 |
Were it a rod or main bearing, the knocking would get quiter with increased engine speed, until it gets ready to break. Given the degree of violence, it could be a broken crankshaft. Is any degree of runout visible at the crank pulley? Maybe loose pulley/harmonic dampener? Loose torque converter bolts? Does it knock at idle? Does it only knock when the vehicle is under power? Does it only knock after operating temps have been achieved? What year, mileage, general state of tune? Peace, Paul | ||
| Geoff 93 RRC (Geoff) Member Username: Geoff Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2002 |
Cracked flex plate (attaches crank to transmission)? Remove the half moon inspection plate on the bell housing and check for crack or loose bolts, which can hit the housing. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 400 Registered: 02-2003 |
make sure you got oil in it rd | ||
| Bill Howell (Billh13) Member Username: Billh13 Post Number: 60 Registered: 03-2003 |
Sounds like a rod knocking. As the oil heats and thins it gets to flopping. I sure would check the flex plate. Pray that it is that and not have to rebuild the motor. | ||
| Bailey Hess (Bails) New Member Username: Bails Post Number: 4 Registered: 05-2003 |
you mean you have to put oil in the car?! dugh, yeh, the sound is present at idle about three minutes after the car is started. it definatly seems to correlate with warming engine oil and when i accelerate, BAM the knocking increases in speed and it seems sound. She has 150,000 miles so i am sure it could be anything right about now. what a nightmare. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1562 Registered: 02-2002 |
Bottom end bearings will cease knocking as revs increase, up until the point where the crank is gonna break. Then, it's very quiet. Is the noise limited to a particular side of the engine, front, back? Does it sound like it's coming from the bottom,or the top? When it gets violent, is it bad enough that the engine moves on the motor mounts? Broken piston? Broken valve? Have you run a compression test? Results? Peace, Paul | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 298 Registered: 11-2002 |
Paul , man , I dont know where you get this. You gonna have this dude grenading his shit. Bottom end knocking only decreases with higher revs in the early stages. After that it just get worse the higher you rev it. Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1565 Registered: 02-2002 |
Kyle: Gee, when I reread my posts, it clearly states that knocking only occurs at idle until the crankshaft is about to break, then it knocks throughout the RPM range. He is the one who doesn't know why his engine is knocking, I want more info so I can help him out, not make nasty comments to those who are trying to help him. Do YOU have anything to add, or would you prefer to bash folks instead? As for where I get it, many years of wrenching, just like you. Oh yeah, maybe the time I spent in college actually studying the hard sciences might have been a source too. I didn't spend all that time partying, contrary to what many might think. Step away from the welder, the fumes are gettin' to you. Peace, Paul | ||
| Ron L (Ronl) Member Username: Ronl Post Number: 97 Registered: 11-2002 |
Take a long steel rod or pry bar. Hold it to your ear and touch it to certain areas of the engine. Start with just above the water pump( looking for cam noise, bad pump, bad fan clutch), then the valve cover (valve train). Then by the output shaft of the crank, if the crank is cooking as a result of of a bearing, chances are it will be louder at this point. The check by the motor mount, if its louder there, than a rod is going. Better yet just check it all then come back here and tell us what you find. If you still cant focus on it, than hold a stick of wood near each spark plug (check for bent rods). Narrow it down as go. Then come back here with your results. Peace Ron | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Member Username: Markp Post Number: 203 Registered: 02-2002 |
Anyone think that "for the first few minutes it's fine" followed by "LOUD violent knocking" is a little strange in it self? Would bottom end bearing or rod bearing noise change that much as the oil heats? I would think that if it is LOUD and Violent when warm that you could hear something when it's cold. Could it be the timing advancing too far which would result in knocking? This could be explained by faulty electonics or sensors. - Mark | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 791 Registered: 09-2002 |
Mark, the answer to the first Q is yes. BT a few times too many... peter | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 299 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well simply tell the guy to drop the god damn pan. Thats easy enough. No fucking around. Just drop the pan and get it over with. It aint worthy of that much talk. If its knocking that bad then something is fucked up. More then likely whats fucked up is in the pan. That was fast wasnt it ? If you dont find the evidence in the pan then it becomes worthy of alot of talk. And dont talk any shit Paul , you are the dude that is supposed to own a rover shop and then you give some fucked up advice like that. You whole theory about the crank breaking is bullshit too! Its called "Spinning a bearing" the bearings wear down untill there is not enough thickness to them to stay in place , at that point , one slides under the other and locks the rod. You aint gonna stop that bitch from spinning under throttle so the rod simply snaps off. That in turn goes out the pan or block. Or both. Cranks ussually break because the cam breaks , comes apart and falls into it. Is that helpfull enough ? Drop the god damn pan and find out what the hell is going on in there. in the time it took to type this post the pan could have been off and the guy would know. Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| todd slater (Toddslater) Senior Member Username: Toddslater Post Number: 298 Registered: 08-2002 |
Er... ah.. well... oh dropping the pan is cute Kylie but that is not the be all end all. Many a rod bearing knock will not be detectable by dropping the pan and pulling and pushing your connecting rods to check for play. I know your a macho kind of guy, but even you can't beat you meat as hard as the motor can.  Then there is this little jewel: "the bearings wear down untill there is not enough thickness to them to stay in place , at that point , one slides under the other and locks the rod. You aint gonna stop that bitch from spinning under throttle so the rod simply snaps off." Which bearings are you speaking of ? The ever elusive "the bearings"...get a firmer grip there Kylie. Bearings (that would be rod) wear down and a pronounced hammering is heard...this due to the fact (in the case of rod bearings) that there exists to much wear/play in the bearing and hence upon firing the rod and it's what remains of it's associated bearing slam into the crank causing the loud aformentioned knock. Mains do not knock per say in that same manner as they pass on in life. Long before any noise is heard from them they will email you the alert at your oil pressure gauge ...provided you actually have a functioning non Lucas device. Or you could watch your Lucas inspired idiot light and have a 50/50 chance of watching the thing grenade. Hopefully, lest ye be a complete moron...the catastrophic spun and grenaded connecting rod et al...is the apocolypse of neglect and ignorance and long before said grenading, lest ye be full out racing your device, you'll receive the email (knock knock)and act accordingly. Glass houses are bad ...really | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 300 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yeah Todd , they will be detectable. I guess I should hold the guys hand and walk everyone step by step through each pan bolt and the through every rod bolt. Maybe then explain exactly how a broken cam can knock like a sonofabitch all the way up to the point that it leaves its capture and makes really good shit happen. Bottom line is that all that talking aint gonna do shit Todd even if you try to make it sound real cute like you have. Drop the pan , you can clearly see all the players and properly diagnose your problem. Now Todd , go sit wit Robert in the corner... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Reed Cotton (Reedcotton) Member Username: Reedcotton Post Number: 112 Registered: 01-2003 |
Here I go... agreeing with Kyle. If there is "violent" knocking the engine is more than likely already dead. More than likely a big-end bearing, but even if not the engine is due for a teardown. If its a main or big-end bearing, visual inspection may not be enough, the caps should be removed and the bearings shpould visually be inspected. With that much knock, the problem bearing should have visual clues. The crank can also be inspected at this point. If the heads haven't been pulled already, then that would be the next step. There may even be a piston with visual damage that can help identify the bad jug. Pull the cam too. Actually everything should be torn down and checked for cracks and tolerance. The longer the engine is run with a violent knocking sound, the grewater the chance that other parts will be toasted too. (Maybe if caught in time a crank or cam can just be machine turned and not replaced.) Or... continiue speculating on what it is. Increase your autoclub coverage to long distance tows, and start saving for that big bore short/long block you've been dreaming of. I would guess, that at this point, even if you found an offending bearing/pushrod/cam/crank/whatever, that simple replacement is no longer an option but just putting off the inevitable. Just my $0.02. -Reed | ||
| Ron L (Ronl) Member Username: Ronl Post Number: 98 Registered: 11-2002 |
"Many a rod bearing knock will not be detectable by dropping the pan and pulling and pushing your connecting rods to check for play." You will still be able to see which rod is cooked. If the crank is cracked there is more than just an oil pressure issue. The harmonics alone would be a dead give away. | ||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 815 Registered: 02-2002 |
i had a Vega once that had a bad ass knock one afternoon while tooling around Charleston (SC) it was really quiet, started knocking like a bastard then got quiet again. real quiet, turns out that the loud knocking was the crank and the quiet was the rod shooting out the side of the block killing everything. funny thing those knocking noises. mike w | ||
| Bailey Hess (Bails) New Member Username: Bails Post Number: 5 Registered: 05-2003 |
wow, thanks for the advice. maybe you guys could settle the debate by taking a shot at fixing the problem. The pan DID come down as did the MANIFOLD and a visual inspection left them with no direction other than to take a look at the lifters. at first they said the bearings, then changed their minds and said the troll living in the crank shaft was causing all the trouble. i'll take it to a fifth mechanic and see if they can take it to the correct area for diagnosis. ANY of you know a reliable LR tech in the seattle area or Oregon area. it really is a godamn shame. b ailey | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Member Username: Markp Post Number: 204 Registered: 02-2002 |
So if the pan has been dropped, bearings checked, etc, no mechanical problems found - what about timing? I suggested timing earlier. If heat is affecting the electronics and advancing the timing too far it could knock. As revs increase the timing is "advanced" which would make the knocking even worse. What I'm suggesting is timing way off, not just a little. - Mark | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 301 Registered: 11-2002 |
Timing wayyyy off produces a ping , not a knock. What concerns me is that mechanics simpy say. "I dont know whats wrong" Is that what everone is faced with these days ? Thats a fucking joke ! Are you paying these clowns to find nothing ? When the pan is down you can check every single thing that is rotating. You can check the cam and all the bearings , Con rod and mains. You also want to check converter bolts and all that good shit as well. If it is a "Violent Knock" it shouldnt be that hard for someone with a clue to find in fairly short order. Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 64 Registered: 04-2003 |
Baily, If you can wade through the 'I'm a better E-mechanic than you' BS, call Doug Shipman in Portland (503)-252-5566 or call Gord'n Perrot in Seattle (I don't have his # handy, sorry). Wish I could give you a helping hand. My only solution is spelled C-H-E-V-Y and would start a whole 'nother flame war (aside from the one we're currently in). Good luck. Knocking noises scare me. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 302 Registered: 11-2002 |
Its not about being a better E mechanic Slade. Its about how many posts I see drag on and on when it would have taken half the time to just fix the shit and get it over with. Read some of these threads! The shit will make you reread it in disbelief... I also find out every day just how BAD the "Non Digital" mechanics are these days. The shit is sad , real sad... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Luis Constantin (Luisc) New Member Username: Luisc Post Number: 8 Registered: 02-2003 |
Collect a sample of the oil and send it in for analysis. The results should show all the contaminents in the oil. Your dealer "should" know what bearings are made of what alloy elements. If your high on a certain metallic element, then someone should be able to isolate it from there. It wont tell you if you have a bent rod, but it is the easiest and cheapest way to start the elimination proccess. By the way, you never specified if the knock was mechanical in sound or more of a detonation. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 303 Registered: 11-2002 |
Here is another one !!!! Luis , in the time it takes you to go through that you can probably have the issue fixed !!!!! This isnt rocket science...... damn Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| D. Chapman (1hank1) Senior Member Username: 1hank1 Post Number: 289 Registered: 02-2003 |
I have a really bad banging noise coming from my truck the past 2 weeks. I have found the noise coming from the converter.By leaning down it sounds like it is coming from the bottom end, but after killing the engine and wacking the converter you can hear the rattle. I started the engine agin and crawled under there and put my ear to the converter and found that is where the noise is coming from. Now when I rev the motor little flaks of the honeycomb come flying out of the tail pipe. | ||
| Jason T. Barker (Speedminded) Senior Member Username: Speedminded Post Number: 276 Registered: 10-2002 |
Just cut them off and get some equivalent sized (one is round, the other oval) high flow cats from jegs or summitracing. | ||
| Ron Brown (Ron) Senior Member Username: Ron Post Number: 391 Registered: 04-2001 |
"noise coming from the converter" Ding ding ding!!! We have a winner. Rod knock is all well and good but in my experience they do not knock long (boom, call me and I will give you a deal on a 4.0). Three minutes to heat up == cats Ron | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 65 Registered: 04-2003 |
Kyle, I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just saying that there's a way to offer a solution w/out bagging on someone elses suggestions (and I didn't mean to point that at either you *or* Paul *or* anyone else that was offering advice). I think that sometimes even though our intents are good, that if someone doesn't immidiately agree with our suggestions, we summarily dismiss them. I've seen it happen from many different parties, so again, I'm not interested in picking sides. My wife just walked in to say good night, read my response and said "Oh my GOSH, how old are we?". I couldn't have said it better. I think that sometimes we get in the mood to show everyone how right we are and forget that we are *supposed* to be here helping and showing solutions. Yeah, sometimes that line between the two gets pretty grey and the helping somehow morphs into catfighting. I'm not going to point any fingers, personally I don't care. I'm also not here to play net-Cop, that's not my job. Frankly, I don't know what my job is on the internet, I don't think I have one. BUT, I do have to agree with you that sometimes the E-diagnosis is taking WAYYYYY too much time when it could have been done in the time it took to write the post. I'm not saying that's the case here, because I don't know enough about engines to say. So...that's the end of that rant. Also, I have to disagree with the cat 'knock' doesn't necessarily disappear when they get hot. I have a cat on my '94 LWB that knocks ALL the time, cold, hot, medium, whatever. I wish him well on the diagnosis, no matter how he does it. I was just trying to point him to someone that I know personally, trust, and have worked on my trucks before. FWIW, I don't think it's the cat. | ||
| Jason T. Barker (Speedminded) Senior Member Username: Speedminded Post Number: 280 Registered: 10-2002 |
The orginial post/problem is definitely not the catalytic converters...unless the 4 mechanics that have checked it out so far just enjoyed sticking him [without astroglide] to watch him squeal. Ron is right, I don't think the knock is going to last long either...might end up with a pretty hole in the side of the block though. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1566 Registered: 02-2002 |
All this and nobody had asked if the oil light is on... BTW-Crankshafts break all the time from spun bearings, I have two (parts of) that I can display. Also, I have a Toyota engine on the floor of the shop, with a violent knock, great oil pressure, started right up,and made OK power. Someday, I'lll pull it apart and find out if it is valves or pistons. Kyle, I don't understand why you can be a kind man and send someone parts (rotoflex bushing), refuse any payment, yet then, you can stand behind a keyboard and be far less charitable. BTW-The Rover business has boomed, Thank you for asking. We expect to begin construction of a new garage next month as the real estate deal has apparently fallen through and I now need room to be able to work on more than one vehicle at a time. Hi Mike! Peace, Paul | ||
| Seymor Hiney (Dogbox) New Member Username: Dogbox Post Number: 1 Registered: 06-2003 |
Pulling plug leads one at a time while the engine is idleing diagnoses a big end knock a bit quicker and cleaner than pulling off....er the sump. | ||
| marc olivares (Pugs) Member Username: Pugs Post Number: 76 Registered: 12-2002 |
slade, your my hero! you seem to be one of the few that consistantly offers honest, real life solutions/ alternatives to our rover ills.  kudos!!! marc | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 66 Registered: 04-2003 |
Aw crap. Now I have something I have to live up to. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 304 Registered: 11-2002 |
Paul , possibly you take my posts out of context. I simply dont like hearing something batted around over and over and over when if its something serious , you simply dont have that kind of time . I simply cant understand someone that calls themself a mechanic and who takes money for sevices under that title telling someone they dont know what the issue is. It aint gonna jump right out at you (Unless you keep driving it) , you are gonna have to go in after it. No fucking around , no talking about sending shit out to have it checked , just get in there and find whats wrong. We aint talking about a nuclear Sub power plant , its a simple engine............ As far as how I come acrost. Well , I dont like over talking stupid shit. I hate more to see some poor bastard fuck around with something that could have been fixed when it was a minor problem , but is now faced with a majior problem .. If shit is knocking something is wrong. It takes all of about 10 minutes to isolate the sound and determine if its internal engine or otherwise. Then its just a matter of getting in there and retrieving the offending part. Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1567 Registered: 02-2002 |
Were the vehicle in front of me, I would expect to be far more able to determine the source of the knock. That luxury is not afforded any of us given the venue. To compensate for that serious shortcoming, it is necessary to attempt to do just as you'd suggested, try to find where the hell the noise is. In all of the responses to this thread, there has never been a response to questions on oil pressure (a critical piece of information when one is considering bearing failure as a cause), there has been no response as to crankshaft axial movement, nor others, except a statement that the knocking is not present at start-up, but immediately as op. temps are achieved, it becomes violent. It seems as though this engine may already be toasted, but without more info, I would not wish to begin disassembly. On far too many occasions, what initially appears to be a problem turns out to be something else. As far as main/rod bearing failures, rarely do they ever occur without some warning or precipitating event (no oil, elevated temps, etc.). Was this vehicle overheated recently? Was it run out of oil (can't imagine how this could happen on a Rover)? Was it used to tow way too big a load? Was it waded too deeply? Over-revved? Still way too many variables to jump in and say definitively that it is a main/rod bearing. Is it the most likely culprit? Yes. The only culprit-maybe. Peace, Paul | ||
| Jason Bradley (Jason_bradley) New Member Username: Jason_bradley Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2003 |
Kyle - you are still a complete and total asshole but keep working on those Hooked on Phonics books - you are coming acrost as a much more erudite asshole these days "As far as how I come acrost. Well , I dont like over talking stupid shit" KVT | ||
| Zach Jaggers (Mountenn) Member Username: Mountenn Post Number: 89 Registered: 03-2003 |
"C'mon, officers, can't we all just get along?" -Rodney King | ||
| todd slater (Toddslater) Senior Member Username: Toddslater Post Number: 301 Registered: 08-2002 |
Kyle, I owe you an apology...looking back I was being somewhat of well....an ass. as often you are accused. I came in after hearing some news about a kid that I had coached in HS ....and was...well...lets just say not in a good mood. As far as the tech discussion...I believe somewhere above you stated that it would take @ 10 min to diagnose a big time knock. True enough ...and truth being told probably alot less....at least live and in person. Paul is correct..diagnosis over the keyboard leaves alot of holes in it. (No pun intended..really). I guess when push comes to shove...and you actually have the ill mannered motor in front of you...if it is a bottom end, rod bearing knock, do you really proceed to drop the pan ???...or do you just go ahead and unbolt the hood and dig out the lift and engine stand and pull it all down right ? | ||
| thom mathie (Muskyman) Senior Member Username: Muskyman Post Number: 296 Registered: 11-2002 |
wow...fun thread i remember a buick 350 owned by a guy named tom bennett, it had a violent knock. he drove it for a week all over town and had every mechanic in town give there opinion. after a loud week of whack whack whack sounds we pulled the pan and found that one of the pistons had split below the oil control ring and above the wrist pin. the wrist pin had been running up and down in the cylinder for a week leaving a groove on both sides a 1/4" deep. memorial day weekend we dropped the boat in the water...fired up the 502 chevy and putted across the lake. stopped at the bar picked up some beers and let it rip out across the lake. just a 1/2 mile out the motor started to sound muffled so I idled it down and opened the engine compartment to find a huge chocolate milkshake !!! nothing to listen to no debate....out came the motor and into the machine shop it went. when certain sounds rear there ugli head no amount of debate or thick oil is gonna fix it. dive in and fix it or find someone that can. I'd bet my left nut that this "violent knock" will not be better untill the hood sits on the ground and the engine gets rebuilt. kyles advice is about as sound as it comes, drop the pan and look for piston skirts in the pan and rods with spun bearings. or just pull the motor and start from scratch...thats what I would do | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 425 Registered: 02-2003 |
WOW tom bennett is great i a ton of his albums. that cat can swing with the best of them...! rd | ||
| Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 172 Registered: 03-2002 |
Umm, maybe Tony Bennett or Tom Petty? | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 431 Registered: 02-2003 |
did i say that out loud? and since when can tom petty swing? or is that what happens AFTER the concert?  rd |
