Steering wheel crooked

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Author Message   derek (Vortrex) Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 02:46 am:    '95 D1 and the steering wheel is not straight when the wheels are. the alignment feels fine, as the truck does not pull to the side. any idea why the wheel would not be centered, aside from the PO taking it off and putting it on crooked?   Ron Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 05:08 am:    Is it lifted? If so thats why. If not your drag link could be bent. Easy to correct and diagnose. Look at the bar in the front and loosen the clamps on the end and spin it until the steering wheel is strait. Ron   PerroneFord Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 10:28 am:    ??? There are a number of reasons the steering wheel could be crooked, but it has nothing to do with a lift. I'd look for a bent tie rod, bent drag link, an improperly refitted steering wheel. If you find nothing bent, use Ron's advice about loosening the clamps on the steering track rod until the steering wheel straightens out, and then take it to an alignment shop and have them align it professionally. -P   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 01:46 pm:    perrone, when you lift the truck, do you fit a lower or extended drop pitman arm? otherwise i think the steering wheel will move to once side.... i think right side.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 01:56 pm:    when i lifted my truck i used both hands... rd   derek (Vortrex) Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 02:22 pm:    the truck is stock, no lift.   ho Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 02:25 pm:    then like ron says, it's most likely a bent tie rod of track rod.   derek (Vortrex) Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 02:27 pm:    is there another name for the "drag link"? I am looking at the haynes manual trying to locate it, don't see anything by that name.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 02:34 pm:    track rod? tie rod, drag link, they all confuse me.   PerroneFord Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 02:47 pm:    Ho, At least on the Land Rovers I have seen, the Pitman arm connects to the drag link. The only thing lifting the truck does is increase the angle at the connection of that drag link to the swivel housing arm. I've had my truck as high as 5" up and my steering wheel never moved off-center. Obviously steering was affected, but it never moved off-center. I'd be looking for a bent track rod/tie rod. The drag link is what connects the pitman arm to the swivel housing. The track rod connects the two swivels together so that they remain parallel or aligned. When that bends, the alignment is thrown off and the steering wheel will be off center in relation to the wheels being pointed straight ahead. Bending the drag link would do the same thing, but wouldn't throw the alignment off like bending the track rod would. I recently had to do this replacement on a D90 that had bent the track rod. It was a good weekends lesson in steering linkages on Land Rovers. -P   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 02:50 pm:    by changing the angle of the drag link, i thought it would also effectively shorten it. but i guess the panhard rod also brings the whole body of the vehicle by that much, not changing the steering position.   p m Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 02:53 pm:    Perrone, it is simple geometry. If you lift your truck, the distance between the right side steering knuckle and steering box increases. If you don't compensate for it by adjusting the length of the drag link, it will pull the pitman arm to the right (when the wheels are straight), and the steering wheel will be cocked to the right. mine's cocked ~15 deg with OME HD lift and straight drag link. peter   Dominos Delivers Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 02:58 pm:    Ho, Just ACCEPT it. Of course the pan hard rod pulls the axle to the drivers side on lifts which pulls the drag link over as well and since the drag link is connected to the pittman arm the pittman arm rotates a tad which rotates the steering wheel a tad.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 03:00 pm:    yes pm, simple geometry, but, also, when you lift, the panhard rod makes the body move sideway as well. and i guess some move more than others? when the body moves sideways, the "shortening" of the drag link doesn't take place. or does it? LOL   PerroneFord Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 03:14 pm:    Peter, I don't know whats wrong with your truck man, but my steering was straight at stock height, with my 1.5" lift, my 2" OME lift, my 4" RTE lift, and my current 3" custom lift. I have not adjusttend my steering components in any way, they are all stock, and my alighnment is spot on with a straight steering wheel. -P   PerroneFord Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 03:15 pm:    Peter, Also if you think about it, if what you were saying was true, your steering wheel would move left to right each time your front suspension cycled from extended to compressed and back. Taking bumps would be frightening woudn't it? -P   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 03:35 pm:    that is a real phenomenon called bump steer. and, yes, it is scary.   p m Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 03:50 pm:    Perrone, it is surprising you never heard about it. Yes, it is so, and called bump steer like RD said. Only Land Rover, Jeep, and Toyota made 4x4s that have the least amount of it. The key is to have the drag link parallel to the axle; once you lift your truck, it isn't parallel anymore, hence crooked steering wheel and increased bump steer. peter   PerroneFord Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 03:51 pm:    So, if you lift your truck 2" with an ome lift, the steering goes crooked. Well given that the aveage LR has some 8-12" of suspension travel per corner, you are saying the steering wheel would travel half-way around when the suspension flexes?? I don't buy it. -P   p m Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 04:26 pm:    Perrone, you may not buy it, but that's a fact of life. If you haven't seen it, you haven't flexed your suspension far enough. It's mostly rocks in our part of the country, and you have to fight the steering wheel quite a bit to drive where you wanted. Remember also that when you lift a front wheel significantly, the axle doesn't really stay where it was. Depending on the suspension geometry, it may decrease bumpsteer or make it worse. A Panhard rod lined up with the drag link will reduce bump steer greatly (a la crossover steering setup), but if it's criss-crossed with the drag link, you won't be able to climb the curb without injuring your thumbs. peter   PerroneFord Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 04:41 pm:    Hmmmm... So you are saying that lifting a single wheel may not produce the effect, but cycling both wheels at once will... If so, then I thing I get what you are saying. I'm just trying to imagine how you would get in a situation to cycle both sides at once over that kind of range unless you were jumping the truck, or maybe falling off a rock. -P   Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 04:55 pm:    Derek: The factory workshop manuals refer to the part you are concerned with as the "Cross Tube". Yes, british vehicles need a dictionary along with the owner's manual. The workshop manual should give you a distance between ball joints (we usually call them tie rod ends in the states) of around 900 M/M. It is in the factory manual. You can use this as a benchmark to determine if yours is bent. I just thought I'd answer your question rather than debate Peter and Perrone. I do enough of that when someone isn't trying to figure something out on their truck! If you turn your cross tube, if it is bent, it will be painfully obvious something is amiss. You'll be able to see it! If it is bent, replace the tube and the ball joints as you will likely not be able to remove the ball joint without doing some damage to it. Also, if you hit something hard enough to bend the cross tube, it would only be prudent to replace the balljoints too. They are fairly inexpensive and installation is straightforward, again referring to your workshop manual. Paul Paul   Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 04:57 pm:    Derek: The track rod is the one that is behind the wheels and is used to set the alignment, er, toe. Peace, Paul   p m Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 06:16 pm:    Paul, for whatever it's worth - I dented my drag link (a.k.a. cross tube) with 10" channel locks trying to solve the same problem. No dice, I might need to replace the whole thing together with the ball joints. peter   derek (Vortrex) Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 06:41 pm:    ok I found the drag link in the haynes manual and it says for left hand drive trucks, with the steering wheel found "slightly" to the right off center, to extend the drag link length. my only concern is the steering wheel appears to be more than "slightly" off. it doesn't look like anything is bent. maybe someone took the steering wheel off and put it on wrong??   p m Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 07:19 pm:    Derek, one other thing to check - the steering shaft couplers. Mine were loose at both ends - at the box and near the steering column. It may have gotten loose, jumped a spline or two, and jammed on the next one. One spline on the steering coupler is about 10-15 degrees, it may be what's happening to yours. peter   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 08:24 pm:    I'll bet I have a picture somewhere......   derek (Vortrex) Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 09:27 pm:    ok I checked the steering shaft couplers and those seem ok too. the coupler near the box is tight and appears to be aligned when lining up the split in the coupler with the stamped part of the shaft. the top one is harder to see, but it is tight. if there's one thing that drives me crazy, it's having a steering wheel cocked to the right when going straight! ARGH!!!   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 12:37 pm:    try adjusting here:   p m Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 01:51 pm:    hold on Blue, is it the front or rear rod? peter   derek (Vortrex) Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 01:54 pm:    blue, if I adjust there, will this throw off my wheel alignment or merely adjust the steering wheel to where I want it?   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 01:59 pm:    find the balance between proper alignment & straight steering wheel by adjusting both the drag link (rod in front of axle) and the tie rod (rod behind axle). In my experience, if you only adjust the drag link to straighten your steering wheel, you'll throw off your alignment. and vice versa. Peter, that's the tie rod (aka track rod)   M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 02:05 pm:    ok but what if it points to the left? mike w   p m Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 02:08 pm:    Blue, Derek's problem is different - his truck tracks straight, but his steering wheel is crooked. Derek, don't touch the damn thing or you'll have weird tracking problems on top of the crooked wheel. peter   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 02:15 pm:    sounds like maybe Derek bent something, but then I'd think he'd track poorly too. Derek, go ahead mess around with your steering links Just mark the rods before you start turning things and remember how many turns you've made so you can always return it back to the way it was.   Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 02:41 pm:    Blue: The rear rod only affects toe. The front rod only affects steering wheel position. Well to an extent at least one can fuck it up if one really wants to. Back to the workshop manual. The manual says to adjust the cross tube (in front) to line up the steering wheel, but not more than five degrees. If the offset is greater than five degrees, I believe (don't have it here at the office and don't want to violate copyright by looking it up on the net) the workshop manual says to remove the steering wheel and adjust in that fashion, or to remove the drag link (pitman arm) and move it on the steering box shaft. The amount of adjustment available via the cross tube is limited as one will rapidly run out of threads and find themself in a situation where there is insufficent thread engagement on such an important safety item as one's steering. Also, I believe that the workshop manual cautioned against using the coupling to correct steering wheel alignment. Again, if the amount of offset is so great, we should be looking somewhere else. For the sake of argument, has anyone asked how many miles are on this vehicle and if the ball joints have been replaced? Has this vehicle ever been crashed? Geometry can be really messed up if it was crashed and put back together again-I know, God knows what was done to my truck by the seven previous owners. Also, as Peter pointed out, sometimes, breaking the ball joints loose is not an easy job, right Perrone? On the Rangie I am working on (Oh Lord Lucas, please get this truck out of my shop-its owner is driving me nuts!), one of the ball joints came out with just a pipe wrench, on the other hand (or other side of the truck if you will) it took two pipe wrenches and huge cheater bars just to break the damned things loose to remove and replace. Peace, Paul   Bill Bettridge (Billb) Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 02:49 pm:    Paul - FYI - you can correct alot more than 5 degrees of steering wheel position with the drag link without affecting safety - there are lots of threads on a tie rod end. Close to half a steering wheel turn is pretty easy. Also - confused on how you're removing tie rod ends? - just whack the knuckle with a mall and they'll pop right out (some may take a few whacks) - if you mean unthreading them from the track rod or drag link - heat 'em up first - gas ax works wonders..... BTW - no flame here - just not sure what you were driving at.... Bill   derek (Vortrex) Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 02:54 pm:    thanks for everyones help. the wheel I say is off more like 10 degrees. the truck has 67k miles on it, but I don't know much of it's service history. now if I simply take the steering wheel off and put it back on straight is that going to make my steering whacky? what I mean is this, you know how you have that "sweet spot" where there is a little play in the wheel each way when centered? well, mine of course is off to the right. will I have a straight steering wheel but have my free play off center?? here's something else, not sure if this is related or not, but my steering is quite stiff.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 03:14 pm:    did you bash your steering stabilizer shock on a rock? The stabilizer shock is the horizontally mounted shock attached the tie rod - in a vulnerable low spot right behind the front axle.   derek (Vortrex) Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 03:16 pm:    I looked at the damper last night, it did not look bashed, but I am going to replace it anyways I think (can't hurt for $50 I say). also, I haven't been offroad in this truck yet, sorting out the bugs still from an online buy.   Jason Vance (Jason) Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 03:23 pm:    Derek, It sounds like the PO probably had the Disco aligned prior to you buying it...it also sounds like whoever aligned it didn't index the steering wheel prior to the alignment. Check if the steering wheel lock locks the steering wheel in the position that you normally have to hold the wheel to keep the vehicle straight (sorry, awkward sentence). If this is the position, whoever aligned it let the lock catch and hold the steering wheel while they aligned it instead of indexing the wheel to center. I would get another alignment. While the car tracks straight, the steering wheel offset from center suggests proper care wasn't taken to align the car correctly...proper care may not have been taken in other areas of the alignment and your car tracking straight could be entirely by chance or offsetting excessive tolerances (e.g. toe-in, etc).   derek (Vortrex) Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 03:31 pm:    ok, maybe this will help. just checked and the steering wheel locks at dead center. so, meaning about 10 degrees off to the left as compared to when I am driving straight.   p m Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 03:38 pm:    Derek, don't mess with the steering wheel unless you're nearing a mental asylum. Think of the damn airbag in it. the drag link's the easiest adjustment you can do. Better yet, buy a solid chromolly one right away, 'cause the thing is unbelievably flimsy. Bill, the gas ax - if I heat it up, won't I mess the properties of the tube and the tie rod end's steel? Tube is soft already, but i don't want to anneal the tie rod end. peter   Bill Bettridge (Billb) Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 04:23 pm:    Peter - sorry, I didn't mean to imply melting the thing - just heat it enough to expand the metal so it will unthread. Even MAPP gas will do if no oxy/acet available. BTW - you're right - just throw the whole thing away and buy an RTE item!   Anonymous Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 05:54 pm:    Hold it! Has any recent work been done (by you or PO) to the steering box? They are impossible to put back in exactly straight first try. I had to adjust mine several times after the steering box. I know nothing about lifts cause mine's not lifted. I do know that the wheel must not be moved inside the cab or your lock and blinker returns will never work right! The adjust is simple if you know how to go about it. It will not cause alinemnet trouble or safety issues. If you still nedd help email directly at [email protected]   Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 09:32 am:    Bill: Re: adjusting cross tube versus resetting steering wheel. Last night, I referenced my workshop manual. The workshop manual specifically states that if the deviation is greater than +/- 5' it shall not be corrected via the cross tube, but by removing and reorienting the steering wheel. If one changes the dimensions of the cross tube and orientation of the drop arm, one will almost certainly lose the symmetry of steering, ie, one can turn more in one direction than another due to loss of travel in one direction. liability issues cause me to hesitate to suggest a deviation from something clearly stated in a factory prepared manual as the courts will always side with the manufacturer and apply full liabilty to the person who disregarded the manufacturer's instructions, right John? With regard to removing an airbag equipped steering wheel, if the proper precautions are taken, it should not pose a serious risk to either the person performing the service, the vehicle, nor later owners/drivers. There should be specific instructions for doing this either in the owners manual or the workshop manual, or other sources. I would go so far as to say that swapping springs can be more of an acute hazard than an airbag. Simple risk assessment. With regard to application of heat to loosen fasteners, I use this as a last resort due to multiple car fires in the past. Things happen very quickly when one has been using penetrants and then applies heat. Peace, Paul   Bill Bettridge (Billb) Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 10:20 am:    Paul - guess if I'd had "multiple car fires" I'd be worried also?!? Actually I meant - take the linkage off the truck and do it on bench. Since they're easy to get off - why struggle underneath the truck...... Bill   Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 01:11 pm:    Bill: Long story on the fires. First one, I was inside cutting the floor out and couldn't figure out why it was getting wet inside, until the windshield blew out and I found that my father had been hosing the car down for ten-15 minutes, trying to get my attention! The car burned for several weeks on and off again-it was smoking when I hauled it to the boneyard. Another time, I lit a truck on fire trying to remove a broken bolt. This time, the fire extinguisher wouldn't quit spraying! I'm sure the neighbors are still trying to figure out my Statue of Liberty impression. As for removing the ball joints, I had them off the truck but had a rough time getting them out of the tubes. I use the pickle fork method to separate the ball joints as it is faster and more reliable/repeatable. Some have different experiences, but when I'm working on a truck, time is very valuable and expensive, hence I try to do things that are best for me. Great discussion! Peace, Paul   Jess Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 01:32 pm:    yep, i have the same problem on my STOCK - completely stock - '95 disco...we just got it used for $8500 with only 78,500 miles on it! and its in great condition...i love it... i don't really care, but i wouldn't mind fixing it either, the steering wheel is cocked ever so slightly to the right, i really doubt anything is bent...however it does like to turn to the left a little more easily, especially when backing up...but the rover drives a little different than most trucks, so i haven't worried about ..   derek (Vortrex) Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 02:47 pm:    jess, same thing here, my rover turns more easily to the left when backing up! this is very strange. there must be some braniac on here who knows what the deal is.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 07:36 pm:    I wonder if they turn easier to the right in the southern hemisphere? only half joking here...the truly wise will know what I'm getting at...   p m Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 07:42 pm:    sure...   Jude Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 10:37 am:    Mine's the SAME WAY - the front cross bar is a tube - not solid. It bends easy from several causes -- overturning wheels w/big tires that rub - sliding into stump/boulder, etc.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 11:07 am:    look at all those bubbles.......   gp (Garrett) Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 11:21 am:    oh my god.....it's heading right for us. did someone say rubbing? ps: but of course your toilet will flush in the opposite direction in the southern hem.   Ron Posted on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 02:19 am:    "however it does like to turn to the left a little more easily" Mos tlikely your steering damper needs to be replaced. The resistance on compression is weaker than on extention. Ron   derek (Vortrex) Posted on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 02:36 am:    cool, thanks. I ordered an OME one a couple days ago from nathan, should be here anyday now. I figured it was a good $50 attempt.