| Author | Message | ||
     Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 453 Registered: 10-2002 |
Well gang, I crushed a cat awhile ago and my researching of the archives found an overwhelming recommendation for the Catco universal mod. # 6005 sold by Summit Racing. Now I'm in California and there are quite a few hoops to jump through and bullets to dodge when it comes to any type of non-original emissions equipment. I'm getting a lot of grief from muffler jockeys and other unqualified wrench monkeys about unapproved this and that. I just wanted to confirm that someone was using the catco 6005 on a 96 or never vehicle w/o tripping the check engine light. No vendor here wants to sell me that cat for my application so I'm just going to mail order the sucker (b/c it is approved for other vehicles in CA) and get anyone with a TIG welder to put it on as long as I'm sure it will work. so who's got it? thanks and happy trails. | ||
| Mark Devereux (Groupw) Member Username: Groupw Post Number: 90 Registered: 12-2002 |
I didn't use a Catco, but had no problem with an aftermarket cat. Just need to pick one rated for your vehicle weight and engine size. Problem is that no cats out there are listed as useable in a Disco, therefore the guy installing it can't send in the EPA paperwork. I was lucky and found a reasonable guy and a cash deal. | ||
| Tbow (Tbow) Member Username: Tbow Post Number: 130 Registered: 12-2002 |
NO you can not use the model 6005 for a 96 and newer vehicle, they can only be used on 95 and older vehicles. California has not yet approved a universal OBDII cat for the discos. Also, the OBDII cats have different material in them and can cause the 02 sensor to activate a check engine light, not to mention that you might not pass the visual smog check. Instead of a new OEM cats which are quite expensive, reconditioned OEM cats available for about half the price.. Email me and I can give you more information i.e. price and availability if you want... Tim | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 454 Registered: 10-2002 |
much appreciated mark. pretty much confirms what I suspected. | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 455 Registered: 10-2002 |
oh jeez, now I'm confused again. shouldn't ANY OBDII approved cat for disco vehicle weight and engine size work? I mean, no aftermarket cat at all is approved for any year disco in CA, but obviously plenty of them work on the early OBDI discos. The MagnaFlow OBDII is approved for other vehicles in CA, just not the disco (I imagine b/c they just didn't test it). I think I'd still rather give an OBDII approved aftermarket a shot instead of a reconditioned OEM. If it doesn't work out, I'm not out much. | ||
| Tbow (Tbow) Member Username: Tbow Post Number: 131 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jack Your not confused. You are correct Magnaflow does make a universal OBDII cat, but (unlike older universal cats) they can only be used on specifically approved vehicle and engine application unfortunally Disco is not one of them. Functionally, the universal OBDII cats will work on the Disco and I'm sure that you'll be able to find a shop that will install it on your disco, but you just need to know that you might not pass the Smog Check test. You might be surprised.. The Universal OBDII cats cost 4-5 times more than the older Universal cats.. So you might find that the price of the OEM recondition cats might be about the same. | ||
| Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Member Username: Simon Post Number: 153 Registered: 02-2002 |
How much are the reconditioned cats then? thanks S. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 910 Registered: 02-2003 |
depending on your state it might be illegal to use universal cat's. in pennsylvania it is illegal but some places still do it, others wont shake that stick. | ||
| Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Member Username: Simon Post Number: 156 Registered: 02-2002 |
hey Rob long time!!! In florida we don't have laws about that anymore.. but Tbow here wrote: "Also, the OBDII cats have different material in them and can cause the 02 sensor to activate a check engine light" so what's the word? and how much are the reconditioned? thanks SImon | ||
| Matthew Gibson (Mattgibson) Member Username: Mattgibson Post Number: 79 Registered: 06-2003 |
So where do you get reconditioned cats? Who does it? Excuse me for being ignorant, but I didn't think that was possible. | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 456 Registered: 10-2002 |
Ok, here's a little more info. In calling around and searching on the internet for an OBDII aftermarket cat I've found out a few things. In CA not too many people are interested in putting anything on any vehicle that is OBDII other than the OEM cat. However, a lot of the internet sites describe regular old OBDI generation cats that will NOT trip check engine lights. One site for example: http://www.troyerperformance.com/cgi-bin/ppistore.pl?user_action=detail&catalogn o=54305 list this magnaflow cat for use on Ford F series trucks. It is not OBDII approved but the site states that it will not trip Check Engine lights on 1997 and newer vehicles. I called them up and asked if this was true only for the Ford F-series and they said that it would function properly with ANY OBDII vehicle. So... Sounds like OBDII approved maybe sort of a gimmick. I mean, let's think about it: IT's not like OBDI cats allow greater emissions right? They still have to pass smog just like OBDII cats. So why would installing one of those cats produce a different post cat emissions composition than any other cat? This is starting to sound like a big scam to me. More and more I'm thinking that a cat is a cat regardless and it won't matter what the hell you put in there. I need to learn to weld so that I can just mail order this cat and put it on mydamnself. | ||
| Tbow (Tbow) Member Username: Tbow Post Number: 134 Registered: 12-2002 |
Hello all.. In answer to a few questions.. The regular earlier universal cats have in some applications caused the check engine light to come on in some applications. Yes I've tried and it doesn't happen on every application, but it has on a few. As Jack found out, it's also illegal in California (which is why a lot of shops won't)install a earlier universal cat on a OBDII system. I just talked with my Magnaflow rep and he told me that Magnaflow just received CARB certification of their OBDII universal cats but on heavy duty application i.e. trucks only.. I did not ask him about eliminating cats but am not aware of any allowances to remove cats and replace with half as many. According to the CARB, you cannot modify the emissions systems from the OEM configuration. What this means is that if the vehicle came with 4 cats, 4 cats must be on the vehicle. I'm going to meet with the rep next week and will ask him the question. With that said, I must admit that today, I replaced an OBDII cat with a Universal OBDII cat rather than the OEM,, BUT, when I was done no one could tell it was not an OEM product. I don't know the cost of a reman LR cat but will call my distributor tomorrow and post the price. I know that this seems confusing and condtraditory, welcome to Ca.. But it will only be a matter of time before the OBDII universal cats will be approved for all OBDII applications. I can get you a 2 1/4 Universal OBDII cat for 179 and the earlier Universal cat for 49 dollars plus shipping. What you put it on is non of my business. | ||
| Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Member Username: Simon Post Number: 157 Registered: 02-2002 |
ok and could anyone tell me if this magnaflow OBDII Univ. Cat has more flow or same flow rate? is back pressure compromised? is that good? as you can read I have no idea if it is a good thing to have straight pipes or back pressure.... thanks for sharing this info.... Simon | ||
| Tbow (Tbow) Member Username: Tbow Post Number: 135 Registered: 12-2002 |
Fresh off of my discussion with my distributor and maganaflow rep. The ad for the magnaflow early model universal cat jack posted is completely wrong and magnaflow has contacted them to correct the information. The early universal cats can only be used in pre 95 vehicles. Magnaflow's universal OBDII cats are approved in 49 states but in Ca,, only approved for use in heavy duty trucks, passenger vehicle certification is pending. And there is a difference internally between the early universal and OBDII cats. So the question,, can you put the universal OBDII cat on a 96+ disco? Yes except in Ca. Will it work? Operationally Yes,, but you might fail smog check's visual inspection, if the technician happens to know all the OBDII OEM configurations can catches that it is not an OEM cat.. That's the risk.. As far as cost,, the remanufactured LR OEM cats are 700 dollars plus shipping, compared to the 1800 dollars of a brand new cat. The 2 1/4" OBDII universal cat that would fit a 96+ disco is about 180 dollars x 2 would be 360 for both cats plus installation.. So do the math and make your decision and risk involved if your in CA. | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 457 Registered: 10-2002 |
Tbow, I really appreciate all the information you've been providing, but I still have one question: What is the technical difference between an OBDI and OBDII approved cat? What do they do differently that would cause an OBDI cat to trip the Check Engine light in a '96+ vehicle? thanks. | ||
| Tbow (Tbow) Member Username: Tbow Post Number: 136 Registered: 12-2002 |
I understand that the OBDII cats have rhodium in them to reduce NOX emission where the earlier universal cats only take care of HC and CO and only have platinum and palladium. Jack if your in CA, I can only recommend the OEM direct fit either remanufactured or new (ouch). But if you ask me will the OBDII universal cats work, the answer is yes BUT... and you know the rest. Are you in the Northern or Southern Ca area?? | ||
| Chris Browne (Chris_browne) Senior Member Username: Chris_browne Post Number: 326 Registered: 02-2003 |
How about going to a salvage yard and pulling a complete system from a obd2 d1, flange to flange off one of the wrecks? | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 458 Registered: 10-2002 |
Tbow, I'm in Southern CA. still trying to make my decision. definitely going aftermarket, but trying to confirm whether or not an OBDI cat just might work. again, appreciate you giving us all the straight dope. I'm now getting some shops that say that only NOW (as in the past 2 months) can they install the aftermarket cats on my truck and I'm thinking that some of them are "interpreting" the truck approval as any vehicle over 6k lbs. who knows? they're keeping it interesting at any rate. | ||
| Tbow (Tbow) Member Username: Tbow Post Number: 140 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jack. A lot of shops are optimistic that CARB's approval of the universal OBDII Universal is right around the corner. Idea being that by the time you have to get a smog check they'll be approved. Heck, they're already 49 state approved. Chances are the early model universal cats won't be a problem, but if you going to put on a universal cat, you might as well do it right and put on the OBDII compliant universal cats. They are more expensive, but you'll know that they are the right cats for the OBDII system, just in case. Like I said, the other option is an OEM reman cats which will be a direct bolt on system (no welding) for 700 plus shipping. To southern Ca it's probably 30 - 40 dollars because of the size. Let me know if your interested. To answer Chris's question, the problem with a recycle (salvage) yard cat is,, how do you know it's any better than what you got? There's really no way to test them. | ||
| Parrish R. Blackmon (Discoveryfl) Member Username: Discoveryfl Post Number: 87 Registered: 10-2002 |
Will outside air interacting with the sensors trip the check engine light? Example would be unhooking the sensors and placing them somewhere out of the way. | ||
| Alexander W.Inglis (Blusky4u) New Member Username: Blusky4u Post Number: 3 Registered: 08-2003 |
The most inexpensive way that I know of and still keeping yourexhast stock is "Dump pipes" or "Drop off's" that attach before your cats. There are two types that I know of and both are eqivilant to each other. I ran them on my Buick Grand National and they helped out a lot. | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 461 Registered: 10-2002 |
well, here's the final word. I was right. A cat is a cat. They all do the same thing and your 02 sensor aint gonna know the difference. Ask me how I know. Tbow is right, you COULD fail a visual smog inspection, but it seems unlikely. The aftermarket cat is inexpensive and reduces emissions every bit as much as the stock LR one. EVEN in California and it's going to pass smog. save your pennies for something more exciting boys and girls. | ||
| Tbow (Tbow) Member Username: Tbow Post Number: 143 Registered: 12-2002 |
Not necessarily true. There is a difference between the OBDII and PreOBDII cats as far as the biscuts and what emissions they control. Like I said before, in addition to HC and CO,, OBDII cats also control some NOX emissions. Your O2 sensor doesn't know the difference because it only senses percentage of Oxygen in the exhaust. As a repair shop, I'm careful what I represent to customers what can and cannot be done to their vehicle. If I put a early universal cat on a 96+ vehicle and they fail the visual (unlikely but certiantly possible) then I am now responsible for doing the job again FREE. I'm not in business to give away stuff plus, I never know if the person is an undercover representative of CARB. I agree, even the OBDII universal cats are cheaper than the OEM cats, and it's only going to be a matter of time that they are approved for all OBDII vehicles. So if you can find someone to put in a OBDII universal cat on your disco, then by all means do it. Good luck Jack on your quest for a cat replacement. If you happen to get by norther CA send me an email and stop by the shop. | ||
| Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Member Username: Simon Post Number: 158 Registered: 02-2002 |
so we are back to Catco 6905 then.... (i'm in florida) | ||
| Tbow (Tbow) Member Username: Tbow Post Number: 144 Registered: 12-2002 |
For 1995 and older the Catco 6905 will be the universal replacement. For 1996 and newer you should use Magnaflow's 5300 series OBDII compliant universal cats. | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 463 Registered: 10-2002 |
...or don't. I admit fully that I'm not an "installer" and anyone who installs anything other than OEM on a Land Rover in CA might be acting in contradiction to the law, BUT... an OBDI universal cat functions on a 96 or newer disco. (doesn't trip the CE light) or so I've heard. |
