Synthetic Oil?

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Author Message   Bill Cartwright Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 12:06 am:    After admiring them for years have just purchased (not leased) a 2002 Discovery SE that I hope to drive for a long, long time. Because of my desire to maximize the life of this beast, I have been wondering about the advisability of using synthetic motor oil. Since I started asking around for advice, I have run in to dramatically conflicting opinions and now I am confused which oil I ought to use conventional or synthetic? The first people I spoke with said that if extending the life of the engine was my top priority then synthetic oil was absolutely the best choice. A "no brainer". That synthetic was a far better lubricant and the only down side is the cost up front (as opposed to the implied costs of rebuilding a blown engine sometime down the road). Then I started running into contrarians whose arguments against synthetic oil fall into three main reasons: 1) They said it was a waste of money especially if I would be changing oil regularly (@3000 to 3250 miles) in any case. Now while I don�t want to waste money this didn�t shake me too badly if the money spent would be protecting my investment in the vehicle. Especially since there is no way I�m personally going any major engine work myself. 2) Then I was told these babys leak oil in the best of circumstances and with the super slippery synthetic I could soon be swimming in pools of spilt lubricant. Now I�m starting to have some doubts. 3) Finally, a Land Rover mechanic in the area told be that it was true that while synthetic oil is a superior lubricant that lubricating the engine is only part of a motor oils job. That cooling the engine is also vitally important and that synthetic oils don�t carry heat away from the engine the way conventional oils do. I have never run into elsewhere this argument elsewhere and if this is true, would be better to just sticking with conventional oil? I just don�t know. So in desperation I throw the question out to the far more mechanically savvy here on Discoweb for your opinions. By the way, the Disco will be living in the mild (but sometimes hot) climate of Southern California. Thanks in advance. Bill   PerroneFord Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 12:21 am:    Where does this horsecrap come from I wonder... To address your points of contention: 1. Synthetics lubricate better than dino. Period. They do it over a longer interval than dino. They break down less at the same temps than dino. And if your engine stays at normal levels, the synth oil may not break down for 15-25k miles. 2. Land Rovers do tend to leak more than most other brands of truck. However, leaks come from poor sealing, not slippery oil. If your truck begins to leak profusely you've got a bad seal. This is a problem whether you are running synth or not. Fix the problem. Don't run lesser oil because you are afraid of leaks. By LR has 101k miles and is drum tight in everything but the power steering box (which is not running synthetic). I run Mobil 1 synthetic everywhere else. 3. Pure bunk. Why do you think they use synthetics in almost any kind of racing, or high demand application. Walk down to any racing shop or track and ask the mechanics there if they would avoid synthetic because it has problems "carrying away heat". In fact, due to the improved lubrication in the motor, gears, tranny, etc., you're likely to find your truck runs cooler on synth because heat from friction is reduced. If your truck is brand new, I'd not change over to synth until I crossed about 5k miles or so to make sure everything seats in properly. Synthetic oil is so slippery in some cases, it prevents certain metallic surfaces from coming together properly. What kind of synth are you planning on running? I've had good luck with Mobil 1 in the past, but they are cheapening their formulation and I will probably switch over to Amsoil, which I feel is better anyway. Enjoy your new truck! -P   Anonymous Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 07:59 am:    George S has 400K miles and no problems and he uses sythetic only. Go figure....   Kingfish (Kingfish) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 08:13 am:    Those damn contrarians!! Didn't Reagan give them weapons? Or was it the Sandinistas? Either way, using synthetic will absolutely keep the "guts" of your rover clean. From the diff's to the engine, the wear will be greatly reduced and you won't get that black sludge buildup you see when you remove a valve cover on a high mileage car. I have another family car which is a BMW, has been on Mobil 1 15w-50 since 8k miles. Today, at 78k miles, (if you look in through the oil filler with a flashlight - covers have never been off) You would think this car has only a few thousand miles. No kidding. Synthetic will also allow you to extend your oil change interval. I change oil/filter at 5k miles. As a general rule (for me, at least) if you really like the car and want to drive it until it dies, use synthetic. If it's a car you plan on selling a few years down the road, save your money and use regular. Don'tr forget, Mobil ran a BMW 325 (in controlled conditions, of course) for over 1 million miles. I think they drive the car around to shows to this day. PS That mechanic is dead wrong about heat transfer. He got it backwards. I wouldnt take my bicycle to a mech. like him.   Kingfish (Kingfish) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 08:19 am:    Perrone, what do you mean, Mobil is cheapening their formula?   discoNdixie Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 09:27 am:    Here is something to add to the other spot on comments about synthetic. For extended drain periods (longer between changing oil vs. adding oil), you may want to consider changing filters every 5k miles, and the oil every 10k ~ 15k. I was not aware that you could change the filter without losing the gearcase oil until a mechanic to me to do this on my offshore fishing boat. since yours is new, you may want to change the filters every 1k for the first three to eliminate the metal fines that are produced by a new engine. And while we are on the subject, use K&N filters. The Mobil 1 filters are just rebranded from some other manufacturer. Ditto to all other comments.   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 09:40 am:    As for point 3, if synthetic oil is not good, then why does Land Rover specify all synthetic fluids in the Freelander? The V6 generates less heat? That's odd, considering that it really likes high revs. I think the mechanic you spoke to is full of crap.   Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 10:03 am:    Perrone, I have to disagree with #2. I bought my Disco with about 25K miles and ran dino oil for about 7K miles with no leaking, not a drop. Then I changed to Mobil One 15W50, which has a theoretically higher viscosity than the dino 10w30. As soon as I ran the Mobil One, it started leaking oil, not a big deal but it was still leaking.   PerroneFord Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 10:34 am:    I don't understand what part of #2 you are disagreeing with. My oilpan was leaking with dino 10w40. I dropped the pan, cleaned the mating surfaces and redid the seal. Then I filled with Mobil 1 15w50. No leaks at all in 1000 miles. Was the problem the seal, or the Mobil 1? If your's is leaking, fix the seal. -P   PerroneFord Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 10:38 am:    Kingfish, Evidently Mobil 1 lost a court battle with Castrol last year over Castrol calling it's "syntec" synthetic oil. Castrol successfully defended that "synthetic" was a marketing term with no basis on science so they could call it that. Evidently in response, Mobil is going to a simliar dino-based basestock like the Castrol but is still using the synthetic labeling. Evidently the older true synthetic carries an "SJ" grading while the new stuff carries a "SL" grade. The pour points and flash points are different as well. Some of the weekend racers have been talking about this. I've also seen a discussion online about it. Many people seem to be switching to other synths like Amsoil, and after I run this batch of Mobil 1, I intend to do the same. -P   alhang Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 10:51 am:    Synthetic does flow better(even with slightly thicker grades), if you had a minor gasket problem before it would be more noticeable running synthetic. The oil molecules are relatively the same size, although synthetic stocks are more consistent in composition. Also the detergent formulation used by different manufacturers can dissolve varnish and other sediment near gaskets, further increasing leaks. The solution is still the same, get new gaskets. The best thing you can do for an engine is to buy a quality off the shelf oil(synthetic or dino) and stick with it. BTW all this comes from lab experiments done by myself, not advice from a mechanic named bubba or somebody's claims.   Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 10:51 am:    "This is a problem whether you are running synth or not." "However, leaks come from poor sealing, not slippery oil." This isn't true. Synthetic oils flow differently than dino. I had no leak before running synthetic and got one the day I changed to synthetic. While a seal might work fine for dino, the same can't be guaranteed for synthetic.   M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 10:51 am:    i have always believed in the use of syn oils and often wanted to cross over from dino to syn, but i have heard that the syn is so good at cleaning that it washes out those bits of sludge pluging up the leaks. any comments. mike w   PerroneFord Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 11:48 am:    Yea, M.K. Do what I did and drop the oil pan first and clean it. Mine was very clean so I didn't have to but others may not be as lucky. -P   JEspelien (Superj) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 11:49 am:    Dead wrong about the Mobil 1 filters go here for some insight into filters.   PerroneFord Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 11:49 am:    Ok Mike, Do what you want. I run synthetic everyone on my truck and have no leaks. If you don't want to replace your seals, that's your call. -P   Kingfish (Kingfish) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 12:14 pm:    Perrone, do you have any links so I can read up on this? Also, (correct me if I'm wrong)don't oil gradings SJ, SL, etc. go up the alphabet as they become updated/improved? Isn't that why the old SD, SF oils are no longer around? I'm not an expert so lets hear some thoughts.   PerroneFord Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 01:24 pm:    Kingfish, That's what I thought too about the grades. Let me see if I can find that lengthy BBS discussion that someone alerted me to when I asked these same questions... Ahh.. here we go: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=313674 Yes I know its not a LR list but some of the guys there seem pretty sharp, and many have really done their homework. -P   Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 02:25 pm:    OK guys Viscosity is Viscosity regardless of whether you are using a "Synthetic" oil, or real oil. The viscometer (regardless of which one, style, size, dynamic range, etc.) does not know what is being put into it. One oil may have other physical or chemical characteristics, but viscosity is viscosity. And, for those who want to know, the definition of viscosity is "Resistance to flow", hence as the numbers increase, the material is less likely to flow. (Yeah, I know, everybody knew that). Also, viscosity (man, if you guys only knew how often I argue this point at work:-() will change with any of a number of outside influences, including temperature, agitation, etc. Many compounds exhibit the characteristic of thixotropism where the viscosity is changed due to temperature and agitation and may or may not return to its original specification-this is a serious concern in automotive paint shops. If a lubricant meets the SAE or API standards, it meets the standards, hence, all SA grades of oil are probably pretty darned close. The only caveat I have with this statement is that as I am not a member of either industry consensus group (I'll bet somebody on this 'board is!), I am unaware of exactly what parameters they are attesting to, consequently, some of the more esoteric issues discussed above may actually exist to make an oil different, but not be indicated on a cert. for that oil that would be proven through SAE or API testing regimens. Anybody a member of ASTM, SAE, or API want to weigh in? Also, I was pleased to see Perrone make reference to the semi-syntehtic nature of "Synthetic" oils. Anybody want to guess where the feedstocks come from and what they really are? You guessed it, dinosaur guts. Anything else would likely require major fission or rewriting the laws of conservation of matter. To answer the original question, there is little to no reason not to use "Synthetic" oil if it makes you feel better and can afford it. It does not make me feel better, nor can I afford it, not having a high-dollar job like Perrone:-)... That should stir things up! Peace, Paul   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 02:28 pm:    ROTFLMAO!!! (No, Garrett, I DON'T need a bean-bag chair!) How true! Glad to hear someone bring that up, that even synthetics, aren't really.... they're just "well-sorted"... lol..... -L   Bill Cartwright Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 02:58 pm:    Perrone, I'm not sure which brand of synthetic to use. The dealer (who will be doing the oil changes at least during the warrantee period) uses the Castrol 5-50 "synth"in Freelanders, so using this oil in the Disco would be the most hassle free. However, you noted the Castrol is evidently not a truly synthetic oil. The dealer said I am welcome to bring in my own oil so I had been leaning toward Mobile 1. I have heard noting but good things about this oil and the advantage of wide availability is a big plus. If, however, they are reformulating (downgrading) the oil then it gets more complicated. Do you have any more info on this? Amsoil seems like the most expensive choice and certainly is not as widely available, do you feel it is worth it? The Amsoil site suggests you can actually save money by extending the changing intervals. I�m not looking at synthetics to avoid oil changes but to extend engine life. How often should synthetics be changed? Would 3250 be overkill? Also what grade of synthetic for Southern California? The truck will not see much freezing weather (snow, what�s snow?) but summers here can get into the 100�s. Thanks to all for advice. Bill   Kingfish (Kingfish) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 03:11 pm:    P, I read that long post. Not much real info. I just checked out the Mobil 1 site and I can't see anything that would make me feel that their product has degraded in quality. Also, from what I understand, new requirements on oils (all oils) is the reason mobil is comming out with a new synth. I don't think it has anything to do with the castrol fiasco. And, everywhere I see Amsoil hype, there is an Amsoil ad. I don't trust pyramid marketing products (ie, its expensive unless you become a dealer for a few bucks and then it's cheap and then I get kickbacks from your sales, etc. etc.)   PerroneFord Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 03:13 pm:    Bill, All that I am saying here is just my opinion, so just take it as that. There are several people here with expert knowledge and one person I speak to who is a D90 owner who is a tribologist (oil professional). I use Mobil 1. I have used Mobil 1 for many years and been happy with it. I was quite concerned at this change in formulation. Given the habits of my engine I will either stay with Mobil 1 and keep my 3000 mile intervals, or switch to Amsoil and extend my intervals after doing oil analysis samples every 3k miles. I feel confortable choosing either path. I happen to feel Amsoil is excellent quality oil. Whether its "worth it" is a very personal decision. I don't have your wallet or your truck, so you'll have to make that call. As to what grade to run, my truck is very different than yours. I use 15w50 here in N. Florida. Our weather is likely quite similar. I was running 10w40 dino, but switched to this weight oil in synthetic now that I am over the 100k mile mark. Your manual should give you the recommended oil grades for your engine based on operating temps. I would probably not deviate from that, especially with a truck under warranty. And to be perfectly honest, I don't see any problem in using what your dealer is using as long as you are under warranty. Just keep the changes regular and you should be fine. You may want to do some oil analysis samples every 10k miles to keep an eye on things. Hopefully others who are more knowledgeable will chime in with sage advice. -P   Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 03:16 pm:    Paul, You seem to be the expert on oil, so let me ask you a question: Why then did my 15W50 Mobil One leak literally 1/2 of a day after the oil change and the 10W40 dino not leak? I'm just trying to use a little logic from my line of work: plastics. The industry uses a term, melt flow index, to represent the "viscosity" of a polymer. In a lab, several materials can test out to be identical but can process much differently in the real world. Obviously, other factors of the material such as molecular weight distribution, etc. can influence the "viscosity" of the material. I came to a conclusion that the stated "viscosity" of an oil might not actually not represent how it acts in an engine because of the results that I witnessed, but who knows? If I'm wrong let me know.   PerroneFord Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 03:17 pm:    Kingfish, As I said. I use Mobil and have for at least the last 10 years. I am very happy with the product. If you want to run it and feel comfortable doing so, have at it. I will more than likely continue to use it unless I find a compelling reason to change (like oil consumption). Amsoil seems to be quite popular with people a lot more knowledgeable about oils than me. They also seem to get a lot of fleet use. Far too much for it to be a gimmick in my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong and Amsoil sucks, and it's all marketing. Does it really matter? Using a quality oil whether its Dino or Synth, Mobil or Amsoil, is going to be good for the motor. Just change it often and keep it clean. -P   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 03:20 pm:    Perrone, Since you thrive on such, a point of correction: a tribologist is a "friction-in-machines" scientist, and thus, also of lubrication. As a geologist, I too could be called an "oil professional", but would in no way resemble a tribologist. -L   PerroneFord Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 03:23 pm:    Thanks for the clarification... I thought you were a GPS expert?? -P   gp (Garrett) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 03:30 pm:    he's that too. but mainly a 'rock guy'. let me tell you......i know all about rocks and rock formations of the NC region now. GPS....he puts the Global in GPS. i mean come on man. ps: dumb as dirt though when it comes to bean bag chairs.   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 04:10 pm:    ROTFL (w/o a bean-bag chair still!!!) My BS is in Geology, good old-fashioned straight-laced field-mapping, dirt-eating rock-jock. My MS is in Environmental and Engineering Geology, ie, specializing in how people relate to the earth in quantitative means. The work I did towards a PhD is in Appalachian Tectonics. I just couldn't afford to stay in school any longer and keep the wife and kids fed, so I'm a gov't type now.... more specifically, I work in coal-mine reclamation in Virgnia, but also work with the Oil and Gas people here, too. GPS is a grand hobby that I can blend into all of the other aspects of my work: lots of mapmaking, database management, etc. etc. LOL..... -L   M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 04:19 pm:    WOW!   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 04:23 pm:    I've collected some excellent Devonian rock samples exhibiting fossilized trilobites. Does that make me a Tribologist?   Anonymous Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 04:30 pm:    synthetic oil is great for mild climates...But if you live in really hot climate states, like me in Oklahoma, my mechanic (a true rover expert) recommends dino 20w-50....I take his advice as the absolute truth...This guy builds rovers from scratch.....Our local LR dealer brings its rovers that they cant fix to him....So i am pretty confident when i say that really hot climates = dino 20w50....I dont much about oil in other climates.....   Curtis Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 04:39 pm:    This is a funny thread. I am in no way an expert on oils, but some things just seem so simple. It would seem that in high performance street & racing applications using high compression engines at high revs and built to close tolerances a synthetic would be a valuable asset. In these conditions dirt is not a concern, but the breakdown of the lubricants due to heat and stress. We have relatively low compression V-8�s built to questionable tolerances that run at very low revs. Our biggest concern is dirt contaminating the oil. That being said, a synthetic offers no greater protection against good old dirt than dino oil. If I am halfway right on this point, the best thing a Disco owner can do is change their oil frequently. This would mean that using a synthetic would only serve to make one fell warm and fuzzy, but have no real practical benefit. Just a thought, Curtis   PerroneFord Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 04:49 pm:    This one gets better all the time.... "synthetic oil is great for mild climates" Would this include the F1 circuit? How about the Paris-Dakar? Maybe it gets hotter there in Oklahoma than it does here in Florida, but my synthetic seems to work pretty good... And if that guy has built LRs from scratch, he must be an engine expert.. right? Better tell those CART guys and the world rally guys to take that synth out when they run in Africa, Brazil, and Spain. No more synthetic at Lowes motor speedway, Texas motor speedway, Daytona, Homestead... whew! Curtis brings up a great point about synth. However his comments speak to what I mentioned earlier. Only the owner can determine if running synth is worth it. It may offer zero advantage in your engine, but the engine is not the oil thing on these trucks that use oil. However, I must agree with him on keeping the oil clean. I am currently looking at ways to improve filtration so that my oil stays cleaner, but changing oil and filters every 3k has proven to be enough for the first 100k miles. -P   niall forbes (Forbesn) Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 06:26 pm:    >Where does this horsecrap come from I wonder... RPI says not to use synthetic in Rover V8 engines. Mike Smith has explained why to me a few times but I forget the reasons. We need Brian Bonner here to set things right. You are WRONG!!! ;-)   PerroneFord Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 08:34 pm:    hahahha... I don't give a rats ass what RPI says unless they are going to offer me a warranty. Synthetic has been good to me and I intend to continue using it! THEY ARE WRONG! -P   Kingfish (Kingfish) Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 07:53 am:    I'm sick of all these oil debates. Everyone heard this or that from a "great" mechanic or his grandmother happens to be a scientist or some sh1t like that. The only way you're going to know for sure (set aside all the BS stories from this mechanic and that)is to use a specific brand of oil in a car and run it for years. I have done this on a family car (volvo 240, 250k miles) and I am very happy with it. When comparing to our Honda (145k miles) which never had synth. it is like night and day. I'm talking about mobil 1 15w-50. I use it in my Rover, from bumper to bumper, and it runs smoother, has more power and quieter. The previous owner (my wifes stepfather) drove it a few months ago and was very impressed with the overall improvement in ride and reduction of noise. He's the kind of guy who doesnt know where a dipstick is and did no maintenance at all. I will continue to use it because I have seen what it does with my own eyes and I am very pleased. Use whatever you want, I don't give a frog's fat ass, just remember to change frequently.   PerroneFord Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 08:27 am:    Absloutely Kingfish. My Mobil 1 (10w40) equipped BMW is nearing 250k miles and has never had any engine work done at ALL other than valve adjustments at the normal service intervals. Made a believer out of me so I run it in the Rangie now. -P   Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 10:44 am:    Perrone, You said you are looking for ways to improve filtration - same here. Have you thought of a bypass filter off the oil lines that go to the radiator? I'm thinking of putting a Tee connection in-line with a small orifice to keep the oil pressure drop to a minimum. No solution for the return line, just yet. A bypass filter doesn't need a lot of flow, just enough to filter all the oil over an extended time. Amsoil has a bypass system. Others like www.oilguard.com. Any thoughts? - Mark   PerroneFord Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 12:20 pm:    In racing, it's common to filter the oil through a remote filter. Generally a spin-on filter is used for primary filtration. However, it is also common to see an inline filter used. So when I replace the oil cooler lines this summer, I plan on using braided hose, splittlng the line out to the cooler into two with a Y-Fitting, using 2 inline filters, and then joining them back into one line. Since our trucks have such low pressure, I am interested in maintaining as much as I can. I've heard about the AMSOIL filtration system but have not really taken a good look at it. The inline filtration setup seems simple to plumb and should be pretty effective. -P   Kingfish (Kingfish) Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 12:45 pm:    Do you guys work for a living? You have way too much time on your hands. Like my father once told me, "If it works, don't fu*k with it!".   Glenn Guinto (Glenn) Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 12:54 pm:    I have a BS in BS.... and a PHD (Pretty Huge...) -glenn   clueless Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 01:07 pm:    and how does 91 octane fuel affect all this? thanks.   p m Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 01:14 pm:    Kingfish, Do you guys work for a living? You have way too much time on your hands. I think this belongs on the main page, right under the "DISCOWEB" peter   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 01:28 pm:    ROTFL!!!! (still w/o a beanbag chair! Might just have to borrow the kids' Seseme Street one.... ) -L   Norm Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 12:45 am:    I had a problem with Amsoil 20W-50 Racing oil in my RPi 4.6 -- I was losing about 1/2 quart of oil every fill-up (@240 miles) with no leaks and no smoke in a virtually new engine. I also noticed a slight "fluttering" on hard acceleration at about 3500 rpm and above. The Amsoil tech surmised that this oil is so slick, it was blowing past the piston rings and suggested I switch to "regular" Amsoil 10W-40, which I did. Since then, the oil loss has virtually stopped, although there is still some slight fluttering on hard acceleration. I contacted Chris Crane at RPi, who recommends using Valvoline 20W-50 racing spec (non-synthetic) in their motors. He said that in most cases you may not have any problem with synthetics in Rover V8s because they are very forgiving motors with loose tolerances. However, they had had some problems with early cam wear in TVRs (sports cars running Rover V8s) using Mobile 1 -- apparently the problem is that the synthetics can be too slick/thin for the hydraulic lifters. Anyway, I'm going to switch to Valvoline VR1 this week and see what the results are. FWIW ---Norm   PerroneFord Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 01:15 am:    You didn't give the rings time to bed in I bet. There are usually warnings against this. However, I cannot believe if you were buring this much oil that the evidence wasn't immediately apparent on the plugs... -P   Jason Vance (Jason) Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 03:31 am:    Cam wear and synthetics...Here's the real scoop: over the past 5+ years, the zinc content in oil has drastically been reduced. Zinc is an anti-scuffing agent, however, it quickly ruins catalytic converters (and possibly oxygen sensors, too). Since trace amounts of oil eventually enter the combustion chamber and is burned (doesn't matter if you've got new rings, old rings, Total Seals, Dykes, etc., oil gets through!!!), the zinc toasts the catalytic converters. All dino and synthetics sold today have reduced zinc content with the exception of motor oil for (big) diesels. So why did that TVR prematurely wear a cam? Several possible reasons, including: the cam was crap to begin with (wrong metallurgy, wrong break-in, wrong Rockwell for both the cam and lifters); hi-po valve springs with huge pressure at the seat and over the nose plus flat-tappet hydralic lifters (it's a TVR, not a Disco...big valves and high revs!!!); improper break-in on new cam (who'd admit to this? After all, who can resist flogging a TVR for 5000 miles while the engine properly breaks in). All of these reasons, plus the lack of zinc to provide added protection will run any cam flat. Blame it on the oil? Heck no...but it sure is a great story to cover up the real problem!   Norm Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 01:17 pm:    Perrone - I assume my rings were bedded in correctly -- I followed RPi's explicit break-in procedure for the first 2,000 miles to the letter on Castrol 10W-30 GTX, and continued with GTX for the first 5,000 miles or so before switching to Amsoil. I didn't have any problem with oil loss with the GTX and I'm only adding about a quart of the Amsoil 10w-40 every 1,000 miles or so. The plugs have 12,000 miles on them, and while they have some soot, they don't appear oil fouled -- it may be that the fluttering I get is oil fouling on hard acceleration only -- otherwise, it appears that Amsoil is some clean-burning stuff!!! You might try this Amsoil racing oil yourself -- I've got 6 or 8 quarts lying around that I'd sell cheap. Strange stuff -- it's red in color like transmission fluid. Jason -- I don't pretend to be any expert on motors or oil -- just reporting my experience with Amsoil and the engine manufacturer's recommendations. I use Amsoil 10W-30 in a Saab 9-5 with the turbocharged 2.3L 4 cylinder and have had no such problems -- it runs noticably better on Amsoil than on conventional oil. The Rover idles much smoother on Amsoil -- I only have a problem when I step on it. It may be that Amsoil is better suited for modern OHC motors rather than a 40-year old pushrod v8 design. I don't know, why don't you e-mail RPi and give 'em a piece of your mind? Are you using Amsoil racing oil in your Rover? If so, I'd be interested in your results. ---Norm   PerroneFord Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 01:33 pm:    When you say "racing oil" what exactly do you mean? I'm not aware of any Amsoil branded that way. I am mostly familiar with their Synth 2000 that seems to be all the rage right now. -P   Jason Vance (Jason) Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 02:28 pm:    Norm, My post wasn't in an effort to attack you, but rather point out reasons why RPi's early cam failure wasn't due to that specific motor oil. Laugh if you want, but I'm big into air-cooled VW's. Guys that are running huge valve spring pressures have ground cams flat, since 99% use flat-tappet lifters (hydraulics are a no-no with the VW case design for hi-po use, and roller-lifters are $$$$). Our solution, aside from accepting the fact we have to replace cams and lifters often and performing the correct cam-break-in, is to use zinc oil-additives or motor oil designed for diesels (which I use). As far as your engine running better on Amsoil, I never argued that there was no difference between dino and sythetics...I just pointed out that both have reduced zinc content. I ran Valvoline sythetic blend in my Subaru until it was totalled, and I'm running Mobil 1 in my Disco. I believe that sythetics are superior to dino, however, I don't believe that sythetics led to that cam's demise in the TVR you mentioned. Don't let RPi's story sway your use of sythetics or Mobil 1; your Rover has way less valve spring pressure than that TVR, you don't rev it nearly as high either. Your chances of wearing a cam flat are slim since the two engines are not that comparable. I'm not about to call up RPi to give them a piece of my mind 'cuz I heard the story from you, not them. Maybe I'll check out their site later and find something to b*tch about. I'll contend that it wouldn't have mattered what oil they ran in that engine, they would have worn the cam prematurely for several of the reasons I mentioned earlier...assuming that they would have blamed it on whatever motor oil that was in the engine concerns me.   Norm Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 03:13 pm:    Perrone -- According to the bottle & Amsoil's catalog, it's called "Series 2000 100% Synthetic 20W-50 Severe Service Racing Oil" API service SH, SJ, CF. Jason -- Hell, I don't know, I'm just going on RPi's recommendation of Valvoline 20W-50 racing oil in a '95 Disco with a 4.6 -- there must be a reason. Unless their website is a complete fraud, they've built and sold thousands of these motors, so they must know something. In the mean time, stop screwing around with VWs and build us a better Rover engine!!! ---Norm   Anonymous Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 04:26 pm:    We are not on a racetrack nor do we have modern engines (we have a 1975 Buick engine) sure synthetics are great for low miles but when you have a 25 year old engine w/ high miles a thick dino oil is probably the way to go. If I had to go somewhat synthetic i would probably go with this: http://quakerstate.com/pages/products/oil_synthetic4x4.asp   Scott Kopiec (Skopiec) Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 04:35 pm:    Any opinions on running diesel rated oils in a Disco? Brands like Chevron Delo and Shell Rotella are SJ rated for gas engine use, but I'd imagine have more detergents to deal with the soot of a diesel (might be good for the relatively dirty Disco v8). More zinc also? Discuss...   Jason Vance (Jason) Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 07:36 pm:    Norm, I'm not calling RPi a fraud...despite all the engines they build, how do they compare to American V8 engine builders? The only thing I can say is RPi still uses tappet lifters and most modified American Iron's use roller-lifters. Doesn't matter who built the engine, high valve-spring stiffness and tappet lifters lead to cam wear. When you have a problem, do you fix it, or do you put a band-aid on it? This isn't to criticize RPi, since the aircooled VW community adheres to the same philosophy eventhough many companies choose the band-aid (and they are very reputable as well). Maybe race oil has more zinc 'cuz race cars don't run cats and usually run stiffer valve-springs and radical cams. Scott, I'm running the Shell Rotella in my aircooled VW. I know other VW'ers visit truck stops to find the oil you can't buy at Pep Boys. More zinc in the Rotella from what I've heard, but I'd imagine it would toast your cats if you ran it in a Disco.   Ron Posted on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 02:54 am:    "but I'd imagine it would toast your cats if you ran it in a Disco." Ha! so why do some diesels run cats and use diesel motor oil? This entire thread is insane! I will run rotella next change in the disco. Ron   Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Posted on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 12:08 pm:    Mike Rupp: Thank you for the comment that I'm an expert on oil. Quite unfortunately, I'm not and I took a different track (albeit, we do similar work) than Leslie. Of course, 17 years later I wish I had pursued geology as those that I know seem to have a much greater passion in their work than I. I made the above comments based on seven years as an environmental chemist where similar conditions apply, namely, there may be little good science being used to measure the characteristics of "Something", but the methods of testing are intended to ensure that if company A says its oil has a given viscosity, company B can make a similar statement with the consumer having some degree of confidence that they are roughly identical in that physical or chemical characteristic. In essence, the test might not show one thing, but at least, we can say that under the stated analytical conditions, the following obbservations were made. It should become painfully obvious that without a means of standardizing such analytical methodology, confusion and subterfuge would reign. Hence, one can say that their oil meets an API or SAE standard and go further from there to differentiate their oil from another. This is where the advertising folks earn their wages. As for why your oil leaked out, there may have been a surface tension issue that allowed it to leak. While surface tension is related to viscosity, it is not necessarily directly related under all operating conditions. Now, to address the lowering of metal content in oils-I suspect that poisoning of the cats may be one reason for this, but I equally believe that the oil companies are under pressure to reduce the air emissions of metals as well. All in all, an engaging thread. Peace, Paul   Jason Vance (Jason) Posted on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 07:10 pm:    Let us know how it goes, Ron! Give us both the seat-of-your-pants performance test and the print-out from the smog inspection.   Jason Vance (Jason) Posted on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 02:58 am:    Found a few interesting pages...and some new info for myself!! http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/AUTO/F_oil_facts.html this page explains basic oil properties, etc. There is a nice list of zinc content in various motor oils. Interesting that Valvoline Race has the highest zinc content of all the oils listed. Mobil 1 and Amsoil has zero zinc content. Rotella has an average percentage of zinc compared to other dino oils. Here's another page: http://skepdic.com/slick50.html probably some information we've all heard or read before...read down the list and the author mentions something about zinc toasting catalytic converters. Good thing I'm not making this up...but is the author? Since Rotella doesn't even have the zinc content as Valvoline Race, Ron can run all he wants all day long without killing his cats. Maybe I can find some more potent stuff at the truck stop for my pathetic VW. Anyway, I hope this was helpful for some...it was for me. Maybe it will add to the insanity of this thread, eh?