RS 9000 or OME HD ? Kyle, Ho, Axel ?

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Author Message   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 02:13 pm:    Howdy all, I'm contemplating putting RS 9000's on my truck and I've been told that they don't sit at 90 degrees. How does this effect the ride, etc. ?? I've owned OME MD's before and loved the ride. Any experiences with the ride on-road ? Let me know, I need to buy something asap. Andy   curious Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 02:23 pm:    what happened to your $400 OME springs and shocks set-up from europarts that you were bragging about earlier and you said that you were going to order this week?   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 02:25 pm:    you know damn well i don't like the ranchers. go with the OMEs.   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 03:04 pm:    Curious- If you post anon that's cool, pussy. Bragging and trying to help that guy out are two different things. What the hell do you care? Ho, Someone posted some RTE 2" with cones and RS9000's. Trying to decide, actually you just helped me decide. What do you think about moving the rear springs to the front, saving $$ that way ?   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 03:11 pm:    if saving $$ is your goal, just leave the disco stock. john and i get phone calls all the time, from people that have gone the cheap way, and now are spending more to fix the problems. so, either go full boat rt, OME, or whatever you choose. just don't cheese out. Disco is a nice thing to waste.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 03:12 pm:    full OME suspension kit all around is very nice   Joe Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 03:22 pm:    Guys- I'm new to the bb, but thought you might be able to help me out. I just purchased OME springs and Bilstien shocks from Great Basin and now I need to get them on my '97 Disco 1. My question is how much would I need to invest in new tools and time to do it myself. I've been quoted anywhere from $250 (local 4X4 performance shop with very little Land Rover experience) to $375 (local high-end mechanic shop with lots of LR experience) to have someone else do it. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. -Joe   Robbie Donaldson (Robbie) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 03:39 pm:    Lots of PB Blaster, a socket and wrench set, couple of 3 ton jack stands, and a sailor's vocabulary (not that it is hard, just can be physically frustrating getting some of the bolts off). Follow Kyle's instructions under the tech section and have at it. Great beginning job for the novice. Robbie   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 03:39 pm:    you'll need a Saturday, a pizza & six pack, jack, jackstands, a few wrenches and a pipe wrench. You may want to rent a spring compressor at the local auto parts store but you should be able to drop the axle far enough to get old springs out and new springs in (rental is free, just leave a refundable deposit). The whole operation is really quite simple. Save your cash and spend it at EE See KVT's write-up: click here   gp (Garrett) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 03:42 pm:    yikes!!!! you can do it with very few tools at all. i did not do it that way, but some people on the board have. by just dropping the wheels low enough where you can pull the springs out. i rented a spring compressor from pep boys for free. (just give them a deposit and you get it all back when you return them) took me a about 3 hours to do the springs i think. overall a pretty easy job if you are mechanically inclined at all. do it yourself and learn a little about your truck. and you have saved yourself some $$ so you can buy more stuff for your truck. this was just for the springs though. shocks i did at a different time. silly me. *damn......posted all at the same time*   Joe Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:08 pm:    Thanks guys. I'm short a couple of 3-ton jack stands however. Any alternatives?   Joe Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:13 pm:    Oops, posted too soon. I just checked out KTV's article which starts off by saying not to replace the jack stands with anything else. I guess I'll spend my $$ on jack stands and a floor jack and try it myself. Thanks again for your input. -Joe   muskyman Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:16 pm:    joe , go buy some ...consider it money well spent. sears has a craftsman package of a roll around floor jack and two stands for $100 or so. skimping and using cement blocks or somthing can kill you. and you will need the jack and stands all the time   muskyman Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:17 pm:    guess I'm to slow as well   DonC Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:20 pm:    Ho, What problems have people had with this CB lift? I am just interested cause I did this last weekend and I am deciding on if I like it or not right now. I also put on a set of Edelbrock shocks at the same time. Thanks! Don 96SE7   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:22 pm:    don, did you decide if you like it yet?   DonC Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:27 pm:    Front sits just a bit higher then the rear. That is what is bothering me. No time to take it on a trail yet. I am going out with the Houston Rover group this weekend and that will be the test. I like how the car is on the road now but really worried about over all problems with doing this. In 2 weeks I am taking it down to the 4 wheel drive only area on South Padre Island to go camping and I just want to make sure that doing the CB lift wont be a cause of some major problems.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:30 pm:    what springs do you have in the rear?   DonC Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:31 pm:    LR HD springs.. Wondering if I should go to a OME setup there.   mateu Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:37 pm:    Joe, For jack stands, check Sears like muskyman said, but you can get the biggest stands they have for $35, pretty cheap if you don't need the jack that comes with the stands in the package deal. You'll use the stands alot in the future, so you can't lose? mateu   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:40 pm:    do you have a winch? i dont' see any "major" problems with your current setup. but when you modify the disco, you aren't just trying to stay clear from "major" problems, but an overall enhancement of performance. if you like what it does on road, all good. maybe those edelbrock shocks are magical. have you driven an OME suspended disco for comparison?   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:48 pm:    If I hear the word Cheap one more time my damn head just might explode..... Kyle   DonC Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:53 pm:    Not yet.. I will take a ride in my friends disco that has a OME setup over the weekend. No winch on the front yet. still looking and I need to get rid of the LR brush guard first.=-) I just don't want to cause any major problems by going the CB route on this. My main concern was in the steering and such. No problems seen so far but then again I live close enough to work (200M) that I dont need to drive everyday. I decided on those edelbrock shocks after talking to some friends that run then. I run the disco about 400 miles every weekend so I just wanted to have something that will run fairly good on the road and be able to take some off roading. (no I don't want a mall crawler either =-))   DonC Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:56 pm:    Hehe sorry Kyle.. Trust me after replacing the O2 sensors, shocks, rotoflex, VSS, and a brake job over the weekend, cheap might be my way to go for the next month. =-)   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:59 pm:    Which OME springs lift the truck 2" ? ? Andy   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:01 pm:    Well , I belive Ron Brown started all this. You know , the guy that doesnt have one single decent running rover ?? If you gonna follow a guy , follow one thats moving in a decent truck.... Kyle   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:03 pm:    andy, they all lift about 2 inches.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:09 pm:    hehe, good point kyle.   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:22 pm:    Thanks Ho. You never said why you don't like the RS9000's...............   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:25 pm:    Andy , its because they are garbage... That good enough ? Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:25 pm:    because they are CB!!!   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:28 pm:    andy, when a company can't valve their own shocks to be used in their race trucks, i just dont' think they know what they are doing.   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:29 pm:    good enough. just ordered OME HD's. what the hell is CB ?   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:30 pm:    CB is the radio that we use to talk shit to each other.   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:33 pm:    Hmm Andy just call you John Lee? Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:37 pm:    CB? I could tell you but then pony tails and gray matter would be flying everywhere....   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:38 pm:    Andy Nix call me? Nope, no call from Andy.   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:43 pm:    Andy? Kyle   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:43 pm:    Didn't order it from John. Should I have ? I was going to spend the money I saved on stickers and a video......you guys marking me now ? he he he. Andy   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:47 pm:    Hey Ho- can you label that truck under my name in the photo gallery as my old truck ? i still like to look at my baby from time to time...so don't get rid of it....i'll get new pics of my new truck as soon as it's lifted.   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:58 pm:    Hmm Well Andy , we cant make you shop someplace. Infact , I hate that shit. But , we have our own little comunity here of friends/enemies/vendors/aquaintances... Sorta like a family. Sure you just needed shocks today and I am sure if you dig you can find them "Cheaper". But one day you might be somewhere with your chesnuts in the fire so to speak. When that day comes you might need something fast. In short , you might want some help from your family. When that time comes , getting what you need when you need it is priceless. Now if the boys are here and watching you and your purchases. If you pick their brains and dont buy from them in the end. Well , if you were them how would you act when the day the guy calls and needs something fast in a screwy situation? Kyle   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 06:11 pm:    Interesting. You make a good point. I'm buying springs and shocks.... John, am i not "out in the cold" already ? ?   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 06:30 pm:    John Lee ?   r0ver4x4 Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 06:37 pm:    so what are the best shocks..I want the 3 inch RTE setup...are ranchos really not good shocks   henryfox Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 06:40 pm:    LOL... I'd ignore your ass too after all that leeching and not even buying from them. Henry   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 06:42 pm:    kyle, thats' a very good point. and as a matter of fact, you just gave me some idea. phil, if you ask me 120 times about rancho shocks, i might end up changing the answer to "they are GREAT SHOCKS"   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 06:48 pm:    you know ho, the Adventure rack is a POS too rd   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 06:51 pm:    HA HA HA !!! LOL. Well, if you guys are gonna be like that, why don't we all give up and open one shop just for rover people that use this board...or wait, maybe that's already been done. Kyle, just curious, where did you buy your stuff ? Andy   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 06:58 pm:    that would actually be pretty cool, but EE is already on that track...   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 07:09 pm:    Andy, Sorry, wasn't ignoring you. I was busy packing stuff and wasn't checking the boards. OK, my take on Kyle's statement is this. You're obviously free to buy from whomever you like. But if you're intending to buy from someone, you should go to that someone for your technical questions and such. You shouldn't ask other vendors your technical questions and then pick their brains for information or part numbers or whatever and then say "thanks" and then hang up and then call the vendor from you intended to purchase all along. That's just wrong. It's impolite and it's in bad taste. Vendors sell more than products. They sell service or they sell technical expertise or whatever. Vendors who usually have the blowout prices don't know anything about their products. All they know is part numbers or whatever. They don't stock anything and drop ship and so their overhead is low enough that they can sell at blowout prices. That's the way it usually is and it'll always be that way. By seeking the technical advice from knowledgeable vendors and then buying from the cheaper vendors, you're basically trying to get the best of both worlds, to your benefit and to the detriment of the knowledgeable vendor. Nobody is going to try to stop you from doing this. Certainly not the cheap vendor who knows only part numbers. But not even the knowledgeable vendors will try to stop you. But I think it's just a screwed up thing to do. Obviously, I'm a vendor myself and this is from a vendor's perspective so you can weigh this post however you want. I guess these types of calls and emails several times a day. The caller picks my brain and then says "see ya" and goes somewhere else to save a few bucks with the information that I gave him. So you're certainly not alone. I don't like this because I'm obviously losing a sale, but I don't try to stop it. I just live with it even though I think it's tasteless behavior. The present situation might be different is you're just posting questions on the boards and Ho or I officiously answer your questions in the hopes of creating some kind of moral obligation on your part of purchasing the asked-about product from us. I this situation differently. You're basically asking Ho, Ax, and Kyle about their technical expertise, and Ho is half of EE. That makes this situation a bit different. It would also be different if you were merely lurking and sucking up information without affirmatively asking questions. If Ho replies to another's question and you sit quietly and suck up information, that's your business. But to proffer questions, affirmatively, is another thing entirely. That makes you more than a leech. It makes you a user of others. For example, I think it's strange that you didn't purchase the Discoweb decals or video and yet you have no hesitancy asking Ho to rework your gallery for you to reflect your new Disco purchase. I also see your posts everywhere on this board, so you obviously enjoy it. In one of your previous EE posts, you posted below your signature, "I miss Discoweb". Well, I guess you didn't miss it bad enough to buy some stickers and a video. I don't think Ho, Ax, and Kyle set up Discoweb with the intent of making money, but I don't think buying stickers and a video is too much to ask to keep Discoweb running. The reason Discoweb went down in the first place was because the enormous amount of traffic combined with economy web hosting. Had all of the users who created such heavy traffic demands purchased the decals and video, I highly doubt Discoweb would have been in that situation. When I read the Discoweb boards (which I often do because I enjoy the banter here), I am often confused by cheap bastard mentality that pervades here. I'm not referring to frugality from being broke, but rather a niggardly attitude toward modifcations or other people. I often ask myself why someone would prefer to modify his truck in a shitty way instead of just keeping it stock if he cannot afford to do it right. Another thing that confuses me the mentality that someone will throw common decency out Kyle's window to save a few dollars. Well, that's how I see this.   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 07:16 pm:    John, I don't think I've ever seen anyone else offer up counsel like you, even my father. I haven't bought the video or stickers yet, and it was less than 30 minutes ago that I posted that message, and unfortunately I'm at work and I find it hard to purchase things online.....Are you impatient as well ?   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 07:32 pm:    Andy , I buy my stuff from EE , Rovertym , Great basin and Nathan. Thats it.. And I have been with a group and multiple chestnuts were in the fire and previous relationships saved them from being burnt to a crisp...Now , as I said before , I cannot stand someone having a site that is sponsored and everything out of their mouth has to do with whoever the vendor is thats sponsoring them. We arent vendor sponsored and what I say is not driven by money , just past experience. Infact , I have given all the aforementioned Vendors shit at one time or another , but in the end they are all honorable people and they certainly will do what they can for you if they feel you have been honorable with them. Until you have needed it you just cant know what that is worth.. saying its priceless just doesnt seem impactfull enough. Kyle   Mike Peters Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 07:54 pm:    So I'm confused... which vendor sells Rancho? /mp   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 07:57 pm:    Hmm , its the penguin!!! Kyle   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 08:00 pm:    mike, the same vendor that sells the plenum.   Mike Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 08:26 pm:    oh, ok - i think i get it now /   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 08:59 pm:    I like my magic knob shocks   herky Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 09:14 pm:    Lets you guys know how shitty the rancho's are, will be taking off my OME thsi friday, for a RT 3 inch lift no OME will work, mine were sitting at 23 inches at static height, so I have no choice but to get the 9005's, hopefully will post some pics.   Markd1x2 (Markd1x2) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 09:23 pm:    Joe, The labor quotes for installing your OME shocks and springs are about right. Most of that cost is for the front. As others have said, you're probably better off spending that $$$ on shop equipment instead of one-time labor. My EE supplied OME HD springs and shocks went on my '97 D1 this past Monday. The feel and ride is great. And even more importantly, my wife doesn't mind the "look" of it. The front end is a bit higher (until I get a heavier front bumper w/winch)... but not that noticeable. I haven't done much night driving since the lift so I don't know how others feel about my "high" lights. I'll just give 'em a quick blinding hi-beam to choose from. I was impressed by the beefy rear OME 762 springs compared to the OEM's. The noticeable difference between the two front stock springs was interesting too. Mark   Craig M. Highland (Shortbus) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 09:25 pm:    There are OME's that will work with a 3". Just depends on what rear shock mounts you go with. Factory upper rear mounts w/ one of the aftermarket rear lowers. A few months back, OME introduced a 75mm lift for FJ80 landcruisers. (due to demand in OZ for a taller OME lift.) they are now offering extended shocks to match that 75mm lift spring set. N74L is an 11.02" travel shock eye to eye mounts that measures 667mm (26.25") extended and 387mm (15.23") collapsed. There is also the N73L which shares the exact dimensions and valving but with a stud to stud mount. Not to be confused with regualr length N74's and N73's Cat's now out of the bag. Have fun... Craig   herky Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 09:28 pm:    Do it yourself, you will learn about your truck, and save some cash!   herky Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 09:59 pm:    That would only give me 3 inches of drop? Also want to keep factory mounts, the 9005 are 29.2 extended and 17.25 collapsed, so better travel right? Tried to get help with this from local 4x4 shop and recieved shit!   Craig M. Highland (Shortbus) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 10:45 pm:    Drop shmop- AND! You need some new mounts w/ those 9005's. Ask me how I know... Craig   herky Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 12:12 am:    Already got them.   Joe Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 12:17 am:    Robbie, Blue, gp, muskyman, mateu, Markd1X2, herky, and Kyle- Thanks for the input guys. I'm going to Sears tomorrow to get the jack and jack stands. I'm going to have some 235/85s (GY, Mich, or Bridge - haven't decided yet) mounted on a spare set of wheels prior to the suspension change. I figure as long as I have the beast on jacks with the wheels off I might as well do the fender trimming and steering stops at the same time, and then the new tires/ wheels. Again, I appreciate the input. And I'm putting my order in for a video too. -Joe   Craig M. Highland (Shortbus) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 12:28 am:    herky wrote: "Also want to keep the factory mounts,..." Am I missing something? Craig   newbee Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 01:07 am:    Ho, John Can I pick your brain on the CB Lift? I have a set of real old springs from my grand dads Ford f350 and I want to install them on my new 2002 DII that I got for graduation. Will this work? Also I see that Wal-Mart is having a sale on Monroe Adjustmatics will this work for Moab? Also can I use a 4x4 as a slider if I dent the Disco my dad will kill me and take away the keys Oh what is the small knob in front of the shifter for? To hang an air freshener from?   Ron Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 02:03 am:    Damn I got to read more "Ron Brown started all this. You know , the guy that doesnt have one single decent running rover ??" All back up except the poor disco which is stuck in the shop waiting for LRNA to make up their mind on it (long story, but if they say no exspect it to be down while longer while I do something cool to it ). (By the way the reasons my trucks were down had NOTHING to do with the mods to them or my work on them they are just POS rovers like the rest of them) Do whatever you want to do. So far 1 person (paul) has posted saying they did NOT like the CB lift. (anyone else?) I can count about 20 I know who have done it and are happy I am sure others have too. Its up to you. IMHO it is silly to not try it first. If you do it and you don't like it, great, you are out the 45 minutes to swap in the new front springs you are buying, just don't come back whining when you put in OME 751s and can't tell the difference. So who you going to listen to, Kyle, the guy who runs stock woodheads on a 4in lift and thinks that is the way it should be? Look, we all have our little idiocyncracies. Kyle has a strange attachment to stock parts on his truck. I am a cheap bastard and am facinated with doing shit myself (irregardless of inexperience or lack of skill) and figuring out new and different things to do to my trucks. Ho likes his truck to look nice and it does. John Lee is always well armed and writes LONG posts. I just put the ideas out there. Read the other posts by the people suggesting things. See if they sound like they know whats up. Then make up your mind. Ron PS buy your OME 762s from EE or discountrovers.com PPS to the chap with the LR genuine heavys in back, without a winch I think you will be tail low no matter what you use from LR. Consider OME 762s, spacers, or get a winch/bumper. How far are you down in back? Email me if you need help. It should not cause any problems for you to leave it the way it is other than astetics.   Ron Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 02:29 am:    John Lee said: "I am often confused by cheap bastard mentality that pervades here. I'm not referring to frugality from being broke, but rather a niggardly attitude toward modifcations or other people. I often ask myself why someone would prefer to modify his truck in a shitty way instead of just keeping it stock if he cannot afford to do it right." Let me ask you again what I asked on EE last month: "By Ron on Sunday, January 13, 2002 - 06:20 pm: John Lee have you had a chance to ride/drive a DI with the CB lift on it to see? If you have thats cool, but if not maybe you should try it." Have you tried one yet? I don't mean to be an pry but when you say things like what you said above I am bit taken back. There should be an is little difference between disco rears and 751s. 751s are a tad lighter, but a used set of disco rears should be really close to fresh 751s. Sure if your stock rears are beat down to hell with 200k on them then it might be low in the front (which is why Paul did not like the CB lift). And to say that someone is not "doing it right" and calling it "niggardly" and "shitty" is just wrong unless you can personally say that there is something seriously bad about it. I highly doubt you can. After doing more research on it I have found that it is pretty common thing to do. From hill rally, comp safari, to regular safaris and expeditions it has worked fine. Just because something costs more does not mean it is better, nor because something is "cheap" does not make it crap. Respectfully, Ron PS I think the cheap attitude is because rover stuff is substantially more expensive than for other vehicles out there, and not everyone can afford to write blank checks to build their trucks   Nadim Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 02:47 am:    a 400$ lift kit is not as expensive as other (J***) 2" lift kits I see in "their" magazines... Nadim   Russell Smith (Rusty) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 04:39 am:    Hey John, if this is "Family" how come I members CAN find better prices elsewhwere?   Kyle Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 08:28 am:    Today should be a fun day. And Ron , the CB lift has issues that even my truck doesnt have with the stock wood heads. The issues actually make the CB trucks ride worse and makes them less capable. Why not just raise the body with jacks and shove some thick blocks of wood between the coils ?? Kyle   Horness Spencer (Horness) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 08:52 am:    Now I'm confused. I am >< this close to ordering my OME springs. 762's for the rear, and maybe (see below) 751's for the front. I was thinking about the CB lift, so that I could spend the extra money on something else (on the Disco of course!). Some people (and I've spoken to some in the UK too) say it's fine, others say you should not do it as it causes problems. My Disco has 52k on the clock, so the rears should (in theory) be fine for use in the front. I've not had the chance to drive in a fully OME fitted Disco, or one with a CB lift, but my plan was to start with CB, and see where it leads me. Can you kind and experienced people actually tell me what the implications are of doing a CB lift, and what the differences are? In terms of ride (on and off road), lift, wear on other parts of the vehicle, stability, durability etc. Any help appreciated. HRNESS   Greg Davis Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 10:00 am:    I have never done a CB lift, but I helped a friend do it. After two weeks he couldn't take it any longer. It was a stock '99 DSII w/o front winch bumper, etc, so there was no additional weight on the front to help smooth out the stiffer springs. He purchased longer shocks front and rear, longer brake lines, and I made some spacers for the rear. He just HATED the ride. It was stiff as hell and wouldn't flex very well off-raod. He took everything back off and will wait until he can buy the proper springs all around. I rode in his truck, and it was very stiff. I have never ridden in a truck with an OME lift, so I can't compare the two. But I think I know rough when I feel it. Just my $.01 worth.   Kyle Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 10:05 am:    And you end up with one light front tire. Fun for cornering and lifting wheels... Kyle   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 10:11 am:    russel, EE sells at the best they can do what it is ussualy the best price out there... they even made the other vendors come down in prices like OME shocks and SS brake lines... and when they are more expensive than the rest of the vendors it's just for a couple of bucks.. those couple of bucks you save is nothing compared with the knowledge and the truth behind EE and the 3 amigos help.. they know what they are talking... they are in no way perfect but they have been there.... and before a lot of us. so family doesn't mean "just" buy from GBR, Nathan, EE and RTE but it sure says a lot when you are in the middle of nowhere and you need help..... and it is agaisnt all of our newbies interests to have that priceless help to go away if this attitude continues.. CB mentality is ok.. I have nothing against that do what ever you want to do it's your choice and this is a free community... just don't do all the brain cell sponge thing and then go away and save $2 in a shock, that is plain and simple BRAIN RAPE! hehehe. Simon   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 11:34 am:    >"so family doesn't mean "just" buy from GBR, Nathan, EE and RTE but it sure says a lot when you are in the middle of nowhere and you need help....." yep, just ask Javier "Quicksand" Velador. Or ask any of about a hundred+ knowledgeable people on this board on a Sunday morning when your Disco is in pieces in your garage and you find yourself without a clue. Or post an "urgent - need help" message with your phone number on this board early in the morning and see how many people call you (long distance) offering help & parts before you finish breakfast. Or, better yet, plan a trip with these boys & girls and go have some freakin fun! That stuff can't be bought from Joe-Bob's Discount 4x4 Parts-o-rama.   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 11:51 am:    Kyle - I talked to John. All is good. As far as where I buy my stuff, that's my business. If you're telling me that wheelin' buddies and FRIENDS buy there stuff at the same place, you're wrong. Everyone finds a price that fits their budget. EE is an awesome place, and as a matter of fact I bought my Hi-lift from them.... nuf said. Let me know when you come to Oregon, that way we can argue over a pint or ten.   Kyle Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 12:26 pm:    Andy , I am simply giving you advise based on my experience. Your right , its your buisness. But then again , if your truck is broken down thats your buisness too right ? But you would still ask here about the problem ? The world is now very small. Everyone knows everyone . The vendors we endorse here we do for a reason and its not cash. Thats all I a sayin.... When that day comes you will fully understand what I am saying... Kyle   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 01:09 pm:    Like I said, there are certain things I buy. I use the vendors (RTE and EE). Family is a term used loosely. Such as the wave you DON'T get back from other owners. I know, I know, grocery gitters, but still....Kyle, when I get some extra money I'll be buying a Detroit from John....and no, not today.   Kyle Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 01:22 pm:    Hmmm , by this statement "Kyle, when I get some extra money I'll be buying a Detroit from John....and no, not today." I an see you still aint getting me. It dont matter to me at all where ya get the thing. At some point though its probably gonna matter to you though..... Kyle   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 01:35 pm:    I'm getting you. nuf said. now get my stickers coming in the mail   muskyman Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 01:55 pm:    kyle, no matter what i do i cant teach my 4 year old thermo nuclear dynamics...she just dosent get it...but she will just give her time.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 02:04 pm:    muskyman, thermonuclear physics isn't that hard though... give it some time and she'll get it.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 02:09 pm:    yes time will tell just time... sometimes we only take the advice we want to hear ... Simon   John Lee Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 02:14 pm:    "Let me ask you again what I asked on EE last month: "By Ron on Sunday, January 13, 2002 - 06:20 pm: John Lee have you had a chance to ride/drive a DI with the CB lift on it to see? If you have thats cool, but if not maybe you should try it." Have you tried one yet? I don't mean to be an pry but when you say things like what you said above I am bit taken back." Sorry if I didn't respond to that post. I must have missed it. Yes, I have ridden in a CB lifted truck. I thought the front springs were too stiff. You can weigh that however way you want because (1) I sell OME springs; and (2) I thought the ride would be too stiff even before I rode in the truck because I have compared Disco rear springs to the 751's and have seen that the Disco1 rear springs are considerably stiffer and heavier than the 751's. Perhaps I went into the ride with a preconceived notion that the ride would be too stiff. But that was my perception when I rode in the truck. The truck I rode in also has an ARB bumper up front. I think the CB lift would be even worse for a truck that had no bumper or an LRNA brushguard up front. "And to say that someone is not "doing it right" and calling it "niggardly" and "shitty" is just wrong unless you can personally say that there is something seriously bad about it. I highly doubt you can." Sure I can. There is something wrong with it. The ride is too stiff. "After doing more research on it I have found that it is pretty common thing to do. From hill rally, comp safari, to regular safaris and expeditions it has worked fine. "Worked fine" and "it's a good thing to do" are different things. There are things on my truck that "work fine" but are not what I recommend to people. The auxiliary 12v plug for my Engel is some piece of shit plug from Radio Shack that has the wires running loose to the batteries and plug is just dangling loose behind and under the driver seat. This "works fine" in that I have never had a problem with this set-up, but it's certainly not the right thing to do, and it's not what I recommend to people to do. The other CB lifts you mention from across the pond may pertain to the SWB vehicles. The rear springs on the D90 are very very close to the 751's in both nominal rate and appearance. But for the painted stripes on the LR springs, there is hardly any difference. I think the CB lift for the D90 makes a lot more sense than the CB lift for a Disco. "Just because something costs more does not mean it is better, nor because something is "cheap" does not make it crap." Agreed. You can buy a Genuine Land Rover part for a substantial sum of money or you can buy an identical OEM part for substantially less (not always of course, you must check on this). Land Rover Genuine Springs are expensive, but I don't think they are as nice as OME springs. The SG front bumper costs twice what the ARB bumper costs, but I prefer the ARB bumper. The list is endless. However, this doesn't change the fact that the CB lift is crap. "PS I think the cheap attitude is because rover stuff is substantially more expensive than for other vehicles out there, and not everyone can afford to write blank checks to build their trucks" I disagree. Land Rover parts are extraordinarily expensive. We all agree there. But generally speaking, if you can afford to lift your truck at all you can afford the extra $120 for front springs. Most of the guys I see with CB lifts also have steel wheels, aftermarket tires, roof racks, lights, and the like. If they can afford this stuff they can afford front springs. I daresay if the front springs showed the same way the flashy/sexy items did, they wouldn't skimp out on the springs. The reason these people are skimping out on the front springs is because they are not visible to onlookers and they are being cheap. Sure, there are probably a handful of guys out there who are truly broke and can afford only the CB lift. I don't think this is the norm though. So, I don't think of your points is well taken.   John Lee Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 02:36 pm:    Russell, "Hey John, if this is "Family" how come I members CAN find better prices elsewhwere?" When did I ever say EE was some sort of "family"? That's absurd. If we were family we would hand out the stuff for free, which is what I do when my brother wants a Pelican case or something. Make no mistake about it. EE is a business. Run by Ho and me. Nothing more and nothing less. We are not a family and you are not a member of whatever we are. As for being able to find lower prices elsewhere, you will always be able to find a lower price, for various reasons. Sometimes the reason is the discount house is very large and gets lower prices from the manufacturers. Other times the reason is because the vendor in question does it part time and is satisfied with a lower mark-up. Or it could be that the vendor in question drop ships everything and doesn't stock anything and thus can afford to take a lower margin. Or maybe someone is overstocked and has to get rid of his inventory. Whatever the reason is, there is always a lower price out there. I believe AB and RN sell the OME springs and shocks for $600. BP and RA sell is $568. EE's price is $512. GBR sells the OME springs and Bilsteins for $499 I believe (with matched springs to boot so Bill is a superb choice I think). Nathan Crabtree sells the OME springs and shocks for $475 I believe. And I'm sure someone out there is cheaper than Nathan. Go where your wallet points you. As I said before, you're free to buy from whomever you wish. Ho and I are not arrogant enough to think that Land Rover people owe us or something. My rant above was more venting about people who come to us for technical expertise and pick our brains and then buy the goods elsewhere. This is the reason why you don't see part numbers posted on many vendors' sites or you see manufacturers' part numbers being converted to proprietary part numbers or lack of recommendations or whatever. The vendors who do this are tired of getting stung by people who will throw decency out the window to save some money at their expense.   r0ver4x4 Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 03:07 pm:    fuck it get the cheap napa shocks and keep the worn out springs and get a body lift   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 03:07 pm:    i think the moto of discoweb has been mistaken in a bad way... discoweb is free to all, giving you sound advice in most cases and saving a good chunk of change when a problem is making your life misserable or when you want to upgrade.... this is in no way the CB way... Discoweb is all about the right way ..we are all taking a stand here saying that 99% of the LR dealers are so stuck in their own asses that they completely understimate the real consumer and the real fanatic by charging us 200% markup in stuff that should be less (PARTS and labor). now think about UPgrade... upgrade suspension no way you can do it from stock..(IMHO) but if you want a bit more travel and a bit more clearance then do it right.. a cheapo way of doing it is the oposite of UPgrading your truck. Simon.   Milan Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 03:44 pm:    I would just like to offer another view of vendor/customer relationship. This is not meant to stir up things but it's just one more opinion. I usually ask questions first and buy stuff later. I ask several vendors and several people in several places. Some are quite happy to share their knowledge and help me make my decission. Some are not. Guess, which ones I come back to when I buy the stuff? And no I don't care if it's $2 more if I got the right "service". I've talked to John at RT a long while ago, he also (along with many of you other Discowebbers) answers my questions on this board or via email. I have not bought anything from John yet. I was able to get "similar" stuff from varoius Discowebbers for less so that's the setup I go with for now. I also bought stuff from Nathan (could it be because he's very helpfull?). However, if (it is if not when for now) there's something I want/need that John carries, I'll buy it from him. Because he's helpfull not because I feel obligated. I will also buy that Moab video (i've been buying it ever since it came out, just can't seem to find the minute to hook up my printer and fill out the form as non-US paypal customer you get charged). But again, I'll be buying it because I want to help out a little bit the guardians of a place I like a lot. Not because I feel obligated. Maybe I should feel obligated in all of the above cases but I always believe help should come from willingness to help rather than from calculations of future business. You may hope you get helped in return or get paid somehow but I'd hate to think somebody's helping me because he knows he'll want something from me later. And no, I'm not implying anybody here does that.   Simon E. Arenas (Simon) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 04:03 pm:    what you doing is research not brain rape... 2 different things.. think about it. Simon   muskyman Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 04:16 pm:    what you guys are missing here is this is discoweb not EE I like both boards and have learned alot of vehicle specifics on both,and hopefully helped some others along the way. john or ho responding to tech questions here should be looked at as what they are free help no strings attached. on the EE board if you ask for tech and they share it great as well, but now you need to understand you are standing in there store. If you have the balls to just walk out...then walk out and go shop elsewhere. in the long run other people watching from the wings will make there decisions if they liked what they heard and how someone else was treated and if thats good they will then either choose to do business there or not. the long run is what will decide how any company does and the long run is an accumulation of opinions that is built day by day or in the case of this e-commerce 4 wheel drive world post by post. moral: where the andy nix of the world buy there parts dosent matter. what the people reading all this think will matter...in the long run   John Lee Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 04:19 pm:    "what you doing is research not brain rape... 2 different things.. think about it." Agreed. The two are very different. It is one thing to ask questions in good faith when one is undecided about a particular product or whatever. There is nothing wrong with asking questions per se. There is also nothing wrong with asking questions from multiple vendors or other sources to get second opinions, and then eventually choosing to purchase from one vendor. However, it is another thing entirely to call about something while knowing full well that one has no intention from from buying from that vendor and with the intention of buying the asked-about items from another vendor who lacks the technical knowledge sought but who has lower prices. This is just plain wrong. It is also wrong to buy from the cheaper vendor and then if the product craps out, to go crying to the knowledgeable vendor and asking about warranty service. Believe it or not, this happens all the time. The two categories of actions are completely different. The former cases are totally in good faith. The latter are not. Having been on the receiving end of both types multiple times, I can say that it is pretty easy to discern between the two types from the circumstances and content of the inquiries, as well as the people making the inquiries.   muskyman Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 04:35 pm:    john, i used to sell inflatable life rafts at boating trade shows to people for use on there expensive sail boats. 9 times out 10 after answering some numb nuts objections over and over infront of all kinds of people knowing perfectly well sir numb nuts has not the $5000 to buy.someone else listening would step up and make a well informed purchase based on what i had told sir numb nuts. IMHO...thats how these boards work as well keep the faith and keep answering in good faith and you will do just fine   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 04:36 pm:    John, you are just pissed that you are not able to charge a couple hundred bucks for 15 minutes of converstation anymore. Tom   John Lee Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 04:44 pm:    Actually, my billing rate was $220/hour. Just in the time that it took to write this post, you would have been charged 0.1 hour, or $22.   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 04:46 pm:    when did you round up? when i was doing cosulting, anything over 15 mins meant an hour. tom   muskyman Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 04:49 pm:    gotta love lawyers...they even charge for the time it takes them to add up your bill.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 04:56 pm:    hehe a few years ago my father received a letter from his attorney after wrapping up a case that said what a pleasure it was assisting you, if there is anything else we can do just call, etc. The next week he received an invoice for the preparation, materials, and postage & handling for that letter. EE is a much more noble pursuit than law!   John Lee Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 05:09 pm:    "when did you round up? when i was doing cosulting, anything over 15 mins meant an hour." The only time we ever rounded up was within the 0.1 hour increments. For example, if something took me one minute, I would still bill the client 0.1 hours. If something took 16 minutes, I would bill the client 0.3 hours. I'm not sure how the other firms do their billing, but the 0.1 hour scheme is standard in bankruptcy. All fees paid by the bankruptcy estate are subject to review by the Bankruptcy Court and the firms must sign declarations to effect that they billed for actual time and didn't do any value billing (e.g., billing 1.0 hour for something that should take 1.0 hours, but only took 0.5 hours because they could save time by reworking an old motion or something). Both practices are prohibited by the bankruptcy code. I'm sure value billing goes on, even in the bankruptcy world, but I never did it.   Andy Nix (Andy) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 05:32 pm:    Wow, you've got my old bill rate beat! Mine was 200 ! John knows his shit. Leave him alone. I like the post about "standing in their office" when on the EE board...that's why we have DW....DarkWing Duck. Man I miss watching that....he he he Andy   Ron Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 09:42 pm:    The CB on a DII is not the best idea and I don't recommend it unless you really need some serious beef up front. However, part of the issue I think Greg's friend had is that he installed spacers in back. Generally rear springs should be stiffer than fronts and I could see that set up being an issue. Of the people who have installed OME 751s in the front of a disco II what has been the general responce and what did they run in back? Ok John Lee. Thats cool. But just to be clear your issue is that they feel too stiff and might not flex as well. Not a safety issue, etc just you might not like the ride. My experience does not bear that out but people can have different opinions. Ron   John Lee Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 11:30 pm:    Ron, "Of the people who have installed OME 751s in the front of a disco II what has been the general responce and what did they run in back?" A lot of our customers run the 751's in the front of D2's, either for an additional inch of lift or because their 779's are sagging under the weight of the bumper and winch. Thus far, every D2 customer I have talked to with 751's said he loves them. That's to be expected because I don't think the D2 is any different from the D1 in terms of weight. The spring seats are taller on the D2 than on the D1, but my guess is that the weights of the two vehicles' front ends is about the same. The two most common springs for rear use have been 781 or 762, with 762's being more common. "But just to be clear your issue is that they feel too stiff and might not flex as well. Not a safety issue, etc just you might not like the ride. My experience does not bear that out but people can have different opinions." That's correct. My objection to the CB lift is that the ride is too stiff. And I agree that ride quality is a very personal thing. One man's magic carpet is another man's nightmare. I actually prefer firmer rides to the soft and cushy rides (thus my usual recommendations to customers to buy the HD springs over MD springs, the N115 over N45F, the N44 over the N46 or N27, the N107 over the N107C, and the N108 over the N108C shocks), but even I thought the CB lift was too stiff. I don't foresee any safety issues from the CB lift, but I'm far from an expert on these matters so I can't say for sure.   Greg Davis Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 09:52 am:    My freind kept his stock rears, since he used my leftover rears in the front. So he actually had the same spring rates front and rear. How would spacers affect the ride? Not disagreeing, just trying to understand how a spacer would affect the ride (spring rate). I do know that it would affect the roll from side to side, but his sways were still attached, so that wasn't much of an issue. I'm very critical of a vehicle's ride since I like the squishey "Caddy" ride over a stiff or harsh ride. That's why I hated the CB lift's ride so much.   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 12:31 pm:    A spacer doesn't affect the spring rate. It just adds extra lift, or levels out the truck.   Greg Davis Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 12:53 pm:    That's what I thought, but Ron stated that part of Aaron's problem was that we had installed my spacers in the rear. Just wondering why Ron thinks the spacers were part of the CB problem.   John Lee Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 12:59 pm:    Perhaps he was referring to the fact that your friend's rear springs were the factory springs that were lifted with spacers rather than a stiffer rear spring (?). Ron mentioned that he liked to see the rear springs stiffer than the front. I'm sure Ron will chime in.   Greg Davis Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 01:05 pm:    Actually, I just spoke w/ my friend and he ordered RTE springs yesterday, so he'll be doing it "right" this time. Plus, I sold him my brushguard so he would have needed new springs upfront anyway.   muskyman Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 01:07 pm:    if you lift either end of a truck above the other you then transfer more weight to the other axle. like if you carry a couch up the stairs the weight goes to the lower guy. if that weight is enough to further compress the other springs, that axle/end of the vehicle will then exibit different feel. the spring weight has not changed but the effect it has at that rate changes this also changes the efective castor angle of the vehicle,this also changes "feel" back when I was chin deep in autocrossing a bmw 3 series I was amazed at how slight changes in spring height changed the weight on each corner of the car. this can easily explain why different people have different needs. one guy carries alot of weight,the next guy has a big bumper and winch. thats why unless you have the EXACT set up across the board what works for your buddie it may not work the same for you.   Mike H Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 01:23 pm:    I for one like most owners out there just getting started just can't make up my mind as to which setup I want and which is best for me. I have been reading all the post for the last couple of months and I'm no better off in deciding which suspension pacakge I want or where I want to buy it. I will buy form one of these vendors on the list but I like many want to be sure what's best for me before I throw down that large chunk of change. decisions decisions decisions Mike still with a stock disco   ken Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 01:35 pm:    I myself was unaware of who owned what and who sold what I often ask questions here and it is always informative. Without knowing I would have probly took your advice then called SG as that is the only retailer I knew of before this board. I have there bumber and such and love it but always thought it was way to expensive. I also used to own a stereo shop and being a small buisness I was always slightly higher then the big boys "cicuit shity" and what not. But the quality and expetise that I provided along with product knowledge greatly out weighed the slightly higher prices. Some people got this others idea and others didn't, in the end I'm out of buisness. (don't worry I make triple now what I did then)But to this end I will always buy from an independant if it is the product that I am looking for. So rest asured if I ask question on this board and the answers make sense and I like the product I will BY FROM THIS BOARD. By the way I did by the video hope my contribution helps keep this board free   muskyman Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 02:20 pm:    mike with a stock disco, Go to EE buy a complete OME kit and dive in if you are undecided now, you most likely dont have super high expectations to meet. dont try to out think or rethink something leave that for the people building the kits. most of all the comparison stuff is just rederick enjoy your kit and go wheeling till your taste and expierience say to go farther. untill you have commited to the hobby and start to form your own opinions based on what you have done and seen others do, reading this stuff will just confuse a simple issue. you will be real happy with the upgrade a four spring four shock system from OME will give you over stock. theres always the future to mess with all the other stuff IMHO   Erik Olson (Jon) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 04:12 pm:    "Family and Business" I've been reading this string with some interest both as a customer and businessman. I run a very small division of an international firm that stages live events and have some knowledge of relationship-building in commerce. With that out of the way, I'd say that some folks really have missed the mark with respect to issues of loyalty, friendship and entitlement. Successful business interests are not always the least expensive. In some instances, companies like Home Depot are able to marry huge volume purchasing power with just enough (read: barely) customer service to crush the local mom and pop retailers in the same sector. For my money, I'd prefer to go find the tremendously overweight fellow in the back storeroom at Ace hardware who always drops what he's doing to help me with my tedious hardware-related issues. Often, I pay a premium for his service at the register - but the funny thing is, I never feel taken advantage of when I leave. Someone along the line said: "However, it is another thing entirely to call about something while knowing full well that one has no intention from from buying from that vendor and with the intention of buying the asked-about items from another vendor who lacks the technical knowledge sought but who has lower prices." This is tricky. If (as an example) EE is 5 - 7% more than the competition, and they bring all of the support to the table - I'd still give them the money. This is where "family" comes into it a little. On the other hand, if I find the same asset somewhere else for 10%, 20% less, I'd at least let them know about it. I feel that I owe them this much for the work they have put into me as a customer. Friend and business lines begin to blur because of the relationship-building they've put into me with advice and interest in my situation. I just bought an full OME upgrade from John and Ho (received in perfect condition!), but had spoken with RTE on at least two occassions (John even called me at home - on the weekend) about Rovertym options. John answered all of my questions and consulted me without hesitation on his take on suspension mods. Did I end up giving him a dime? No. However, I will without a doubt purchase my sliders from him in the weeks to come because they are a superior product, and I trust him inherently. Did he waste his time discussing suspension with me? That's a question for him - but in my opinion, some of my best customers may be potential customers. The supportive, customer-focused qualities in Ho, John & John and Nathan are attributes that make them all successful in their respective ventures. Do we have a responsibility to choose EE, Rovertym, Discount Rover Parts over 4-Wheel Parts Wholesalers and the other big players? I would ask that question the next time you try and get help making a major purchase at Wal-Mart, Staples or Home Depot. How much you spend and what represents true value to you as a consumer can be very different things. Keep shopping at the giant chains exclusively and you won't have to worry about smaller, more helpful guys like the ones who post here. My $.37, for what it's worth in today's market. Erik   Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 06:53 pm:    Erik, you bring up a good point. I spent 7 years as a sales rep for Sanyo. I sold to their top accounts and at my last year had the #2 account in North America. I generated over $125M in sales per year during my last 2 years there. During my 7 years, we were rarely the cheapest product. We never claimed to be and never promised to be. What we did promise was to stand behind our product and to give our customer 100% of our effort. If a customer only cared about price, I gave them the phone number to my competition. The one thing I always asked my customers was to at least give us a shot to meet comp prices whenever possible. Sometimes I was able to meet the price, and more often then not, I was a few points higher. At that point the customer go to decide how much was it worth to by price or to buy support. Customers that choose price usually came back within a few months begging for product and support. If all you care about is price, that's fine. But don't come crying when you need help down the road. There's a saying we had in sales, "Better, longer, or cheaper. You can only choose two." Which two will you pick? I know I sometimes pay a few dollars extra when I shop for my Rover parts, but I also know that when I pick up the phone and call my vendors because I need help that the guys on the other end of the phone will drop what they're doing and walk me through. That's worth a few bucks in my world. Jeff   Kyle Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 07:34 pm:    Well , what I want to know from Ron is which truck of his has he run the CB lift on ? Ron ? Are you pulling a "Perrone" ? Kyle   Ron Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 09:46 pm:    On my trucks no. I have been very clear with is what is/was on my rigs in the past (DI SG stage I with OME HD all around and drop kit, RR custom 220 fronts (replaced OME 751s), 250 Rate 3in RTE rears (replaced OME 762s)), Series is on leafs, 110 is still in the garage but has bearcrap springs under it. As soon as it gets closer and I can rub 2 $100 bills together it will have a set of John's SP-1 flexy front springs on it and I will probably live with the bearcrap rears at least for a while. If you snuck into the dealer and swapped out the OME 751s in the front of the disco for stock Disco rears I doubt I would notice until I popped my head under there for something. Personally I prefer the set up on the rangie to OME HDs but the disco is Alyssa's main driver (when it runs) and she like the sharper on road ride it gives and we also tow with it. However, I have installed, driven, and ridden on and off road in two DIs with the CB lift. I have also explained the procedure to a handfull of other people who have emailed me about it and got their feedback (all positive). I personally could not tell the difference between riding in the CB lifted disco with winch/bullbar and our OME HD lifted disco with winch/bullbar either on or off road, with the exception of the extra REAR articulation provided by our drop kit. I have explained my experience with it enough. TO ME I would not hesitate to AT LEAST START with the CB lift. You guys criticizing it is making it a bit out of fashion at the moment but like I said the worst that happens is that you lose 45minutes installing new springs if you dislike it. Greg, If you like the caddy ride CB or OME HD is not the way to go, especially without a bar/winch on front, and especially on a DII. What I was saying is that part of the problem with the guy's particular set up is that, IMHO, a rover which is tail heavy will ride better with stiffer rear springs. It sounds odd but that would probably improve the ride somewhat, especially offroad, where the stiffer rear levers the front. This is just my experience and I think the vendors recommendations will bear this out. To reitterate, unless you have a winch and a giant hunk of steel on the front end of your DII CB lift is probably not what you want to do. Ron