Trek Outfitters vs. ARB (airbag) bump...

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Author Message   scott hodges (Sugarlandman) Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 04:16 pm:    Going to add a new front bumper to a DII. Narrowed it down to either the ARB or Trek Outfitters. Would love to hear peoples experience with the Trek bumper. I've seen Kyle's window with the ARB damage.   Myktoolbox Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 04:50 pm:    I have the TO bumper on my DII. Aside from several imperfections in the finish(small rust spots, "bubbles" in the powdercoating etc), I have no complaints. Mike Holmes   scott hodges (Sugarlandman) Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 05:08 pm:    Mike, Do you know anyone else who has the bumper and if they have had problems with it? I have read numerous complaints about the ARB for the DII but nothing about the TO.   Myktoolbox Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 06:27 pm:    Sorry, I do not know anyone else with the TO bumper. I also read a lot of complaints about the air bag compatible ARB bumpers, thats why I decided not to get one. MH   Kennith Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 06:58 pm:    The TO one is far superior in all aspects if you ask me, and I'm buying one myself. Cheers, Kennith   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 07:02 pm:    hmmm.. just curious - which aspects, specifically Kennith? finish? strength? aesthetics? /mp   sugarlandman Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 08:17 pm:    doesn't the ARB require modification to install on the truck and to install a winch, while the TO doesn't require modification to the truck (other than removal of factory bumper) to install on truck plus the winch.   Bryan Weiss Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 08:19 pm:    I had no idea Trek made this bumper! I have been looking for a replacment bumper (other than Safari Gard) that fits a warn 9000i winch which I have. I am also curious Kennith, why do you think this is better than the ARB (I was looking at the ARB non airgab for a disco 1 and just getting a new winch). How is the finish on this? pretty durable powder coat or will this rust in a year? I haven't ever seen an rusty ARB bumper. Price is kinda steep though compared to $565 for an ARB.   Neal Glessner (Nealg) Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 09:55 pm:    Both bumpers look very similar. The ARB is $565 (discount Rovers)and the Trek is $900. I have heard some negative things about the ARB but that is primary becasue the crush can bed easily if they take a blow from below. For a very long time I have been a daily browser of Discoweb and other rover related sites and I can't recall anything negative about the ARB non-SRS bumbers. If it makes you feel more confortable, I have been comparing bumpers for several months and bought an ARB today. Not that it matters, but would bet that TO is branding someone else's product.   Bryan Weiss Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 10:13 pm:    so anyone have experience with the Trek bumper itself as far as strength and especially rust goes?   Neal Glessner (Nealg) Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 10:25 pm:    Scott, have you looked at the SG bumper. It's my bumper of choice if money wasn't a factor. It's only $50 more than the TO bumber. I think it's cooler looking, very distinctive, and I love the intergrated skid plate. http://www.safarigard.com/Discovery%20Products.htm#Front Bumper   Scott sugarlandman Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 11:18 pm:    neal, Why SG? Have you had any bad experiences with other bumpers? It is a nice looking bumper though.   Kent Westbrook Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 11:31 pm:    No rust on my TO bumper, or powdercoat issues either. Also no complaints on strength; I've hit it pretty good a couple of times, so I figure it's paid for itself in what would (with factory bumper) have been body damage. My only complaint would be that, because of the way the winch area protrudes, the fairlead sticks out a bit far. Also, I don't think TO is branding someone else's product; I think it's his own design although he may have someone else fabricate for him. Kent   Neal Glessner (Nealg) Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 12:36 am:    No bad experiences here. I just like the SG look and have never read anything negative about it.   scott hodges (Sugarlandman) Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 10:07 am:    Neal, Have you ever read anything bad about the TO?   Bryan Weiss Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 11:54 am:    Just talked to Matt at Trek Outfitters. If anyone was looking to buy a trek bumper for a D1, they are back ordered for 2 to 3 months. Dont know if that affects anyone's decision. They dont rebrand by the way. They do fabricate their own stuff. And the more they make, the cheaper the price will become. They also changed the podwer coat proceedure due to some problems they did have in the past. Looks like a pretty sturdy product and he was great to talk to.   Neal Glessner (Nealg) Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 12:21 pm:    Scott, only about the powder coating but it looks like that's been addressed.   scott hodges (Sugarlandman) Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 02:23 pm:    Is either bumper difficult to install on your own?   p m Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 02:44 pm:    not really, if you put the beer down peter   scott hodges (Sugarlandman) Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 02:46 pm:    If you wear one of those batting helmets that holds two beers with built in straw then is it any easier to install?   Moe (Moe) Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 04:11 pm:    When Kennith returns, I would also like to know how the TO bumper is far superior than the ARB in all aspects. Are the two bumpers really that different? The TO looks like an ARB copy with some similar issues, and I can't understand why the TO bumper costs $300 more than an ARB.   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 04:21 pm:    It costs more because Matt is just a middle man. ARB manufactures and sells.....Whenever there is a middle man the prices are higher... Kyle   Myktoolbox Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 05:36 pm:    The differences are very slight. Aside from the airbag vs. non-airbag feature, the biggest design difference appears to be the lip that the ARB has that runs along the bottom of the bumper. If I am not mistaken, I think some ARB owners (not just of Rovers) have bent the hell out of this portion of the bumper. Mike Holmes   Bryan Weiss Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 06:29 pm:    I dont think Matt is a middle man. I think they cost more because Trek Outfitters has only been in business truly for about a year and has not sold many of these bumpers. The more one sells of an item like this, the less it costs them to manufacture. I have been researching bumpers for a month now and two days ago is the first I came across TO. Just my thoughts but have you talked to Matt to find out if that is indeed the case?   JRoc Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 07:25 pm:    Trek Outfitters took a good bumper design (ARB) and extended the winch fairlead mount. Then they charge about $300 more. I don't get why the decision is sooo tough! ARB with crush cans sucks! ARB without crush cans Rocks!!! A front winch mount bumper shouldn't cost over $700 unless it does alot more than hold a winch and protect your front end! Sodomy Guard is a nice design if they were to lower the price by a few hundred dollars. Why someone doesn't just copy there design, and price it more reasonable is beyond me. And someone needs to mention the best front bumper design out there, KYLE'S! The only problem is you have to win some sort of lottery or something in order to quality to buy one! LOL Hey, there's a rumor! I haven't met him, but the guy definately knows how to design/build bumpers! Seems alot of people on this board have some negative comments about his "Tude" though. Whatever!!!   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 07:28 pm:    I'd go TJM over Trek Outfitters (TO). That fairlead is really exposed on the TO - kinda like walkin around with your fly unzipped. Look at the overall general appearance of TJM front & rear bumpers vs. TO's. TJM's fit & finish appear to be superior, and TJM is significantly cheaper.   Myktoolbox Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 07:34 pm:    But if you get a TJM, aren't you stuck with an airbag compatible design? Or do they make non-comp. bumpers for the DII? Mike Holmes   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 07:49 pm:    Apparently so, but the BIG question is whether or not a TJM will collapse when it nudges the ground like an airbag ARB does...   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 08:17 pm:    "The TO one is far superior in all aspects if you ask me, and I'm buying one myself." Kennith: You seen them both? Far superior? In terms of what? You seem to know a thing or two about rack conceptualization � and you write well on that issue. But here about bumpers, you appear (to me) to be treading on thin ice and pontificating. What makes you so hot for Matt�s bumper? Fit? It�s ok. Functionality? Ok. Strength? Dunno. Cannot judge that. Price? Come on. The man is priced right up there with the rest. Like the Mac / PC battle, Matt tries to position himself as a bumper with a price for the rest of us, but that just is not the case. This observation about Matt being in business for only a year and that is why he costs more � what a crock!!! His costs more because people are willing to pay for it. IF he could not sell those pups, you would see the price drop. He can get the money for them � that is why they cost. I have seen the ARB, and I have seen Matt�s. And I have one of Kyle�s bumpers. Now, his bumper is the only one I have actually driven, but I cannot see how Matt�s (the ARB is just a fucking lost cause � not even worth the bytes to display its name for your perusal) can even come close to the KVT. Approach angle is amazing, the winch is well placed and damn well protected, but more than those crucially important aspects is the style of the KVT. The DSII with a KVT could be (and recently has been) driven up to any 5 star restaurant, be valet parked (sorry for the redundancy, but the meter requires it), and look as classy as a Rolls. It looks bad ass. It looks damn good because it marries form, function, and grace. And not one of the other bumpers even comes close to achieving that holy trinity. Matt�s bumper and certainly the ARB clearly lacks this elusive, yet critically, important element of style. And as far as this �Tude� thing, I would only offer a personal observation based on my experiences on DW: I have yet to see a post from anyone who said he came to the man with cash and reported that Kyle treated him like a prick. So come on the Third: You shot true about racks, handled the crap well there on that thread. Now back-up your proclamation. Now if all you truly are offering is your opinion based on a web picture, then cool. But you might want to tone that rocking tone of an endorsed epiphany about Matt�s bumper down a little. Michael   Anonymous Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 08:46 pm:    Bryan, TO is a "middle-man". A 3rd party company maufactures the bumpers for him since he does not have the resources there on site for order scale production. He has openly stated this on other lists. TO has been around for a lot longer than a year. Matt's ownership interests and company image revamping have only been around for about a year.   Moe (Moe) Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 08:50 pm:    "kinda like walkin around with your fly unzipped" LOL Blue, I don't know it that is dangerous or just plain distasteful. Michael, now we are comparing the ARB to the KVT blade? That aint fair.   Bryan Weiss Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 08:56 pm:    Wow Michael, Matt must have really pissed you off huh? I think that no one has really said yet weather this bumper truly performs off road but to judge it on the exceptional merit of other bumpers and say that it is crap is a little shortsighted. Also, its looks are a subjective matter. I happen to think it is one of the better looking bumpers I have seen. True, Kyle's is the cleanest look I have seen but thats just my opinion. As for price, I have to agree with you. It was just a thought as to why they sell them for so much but who knows what the reason is. Waaayyy to expensive. There is one important point to make though. This is the only bumper I have found yet besides the Safari Gard (which costs $50 more and doesn't have limb riser tabs... those are extra) that mounts a Warn 8000i or 9000i winch with the integrated solenoid (which unfortunately came on my car since I got it used) without modification. All of Trek's parts require no modification to the truck. Something a lot of people look for in aftermarket components. And I'm sorry, no matter how clean and waxed my truck is (and I do light off road only and am fanatical about keeping my truck clean and in one piece), I doesn't look anywhere near as slick as Roll's at a 5 star restuarant (even though that doesn't stop me from pulling up to the door in it to see the reaction I get! ). Just one man's opinion.   Bryan Weiss Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 08:59 pm:    Anonymous, Point taken. Didn't know that. Thanks.   p m Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 09:56 pm:    jeez Mike, that was yet another piece of literature there. I have seen Matt's bumper on Matt's Disco, and while I don't know its mechanical properties, I don't like its looks. Matt is not quite a middleman, he just farms out the manufacturing of his bumper to somebody who knows how to weld. I have seen many SafariGard bumpers, and this indeed makes me wonder how come they are still in business. I have an ARB (non-airbag) bumper on the rangie, and I believe it's the best general-purpose bumper made for an RRC. Disco's a bit different, but your emotions are not a reason to dismiss ARB as a "fucking lost cause." ARB has been in this business for ages; the bumpers they make and sell may not look as sexy as a rockcrawler blade, but are very strong and functional nevertheless. it is remarkable how the products (you buy) become (in your words) the ultimate of the best, and the rest gets dismissed as overpriced or homegrown trash. peter   BW Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 10:56 pm:    Have a coke and a smile guys . . . gee wiz. BW   Bryan Weiss Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 11:01 pm:    Actually, I was just thinking about scrapping the whole bumper idea and bolting an old Series rover to the front of my Disco to absorb damage.   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 11:37 pm:    Hmmm.... It really must me then. I am sorry world. I truly apologize. Seems these past few weeks each time I voice my perspective, I come across as pissed. so it has to be my style. Well. Ok. Cannot fight the perception. Matt did nada to piss me off -- nor did I think I slammed his bumper and called it a piece of "crap." Nor do I think my KVT is the "ultimate" out there. I think I used words like "amazing" and "bad ass." I did not characterize Matt's as trash -- I did however harshly slam the ARB and said (or meant) "fucking useless." So unless your IQ points (Peter) has suddenly gone room temperature, I suggest you pay attention to what I really and truly said. Take me to task for what I wrote Peter -- but I would ask that you stop warping my comments. Michael   Moe (Moe) Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:36 am:    "Hmmm.... It really must (be) me then" Well, maybe . . I think people who are straight forward in person can come of as brash in writing. That mixed heritage might not help either Anyway you are wrong on the 'fucking useless' claim regarding ARB bars. For now, I wont go into their strong points but if you want to test your prized 'holy trinity' bumper on a full size roo sometime, please let me know.   Anonymous Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 01:09 am:    Michael, WOW, driven up to a 5-star restaurant? Amazing. That is really great. Glad it looked so great there. Bet the valet really appreciated it. Glad you own it--makes me proud to just read your writing--eloquent! I am sure it functions incredibly off road too, although I did not read that anywhere in your post. ARB is fucking useless? Funny, it has pulled me out of some situations; did not seem so "fucking useless" at the time. You must really know how to use a bumper and winch really well--because some of us other hacks must really be fucking things up pretty good to have them not fail. Must be doing something wrong. Every mechanical system has some useless weak points--I guess some of us have just been lucky not to cater to them as well as you. I am posting as anonymous just to futher piss you off, you direct fun loving person.   Anonymous Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 02:39 am:    Thanks Anon! Yup, I am the greatest. With the bumper and the winch! None better than me, I know it all about winching and wheeling. So work harder at it Anon. Cheers MV   Myktoolbox Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 10:26 am:    "All of Trek's parts require no modification to the truck. " Not quite true. Unless you want your washer fluid tank hanging lower than the bottom the of bumper, you will have to do some modification (DII model anyway). Its not major surgery, but you will have to do some cutting and drilling to get the tank to clear the bottom. MH   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 10:33 am:    LOL , now who in the Hell would run around with the washer resivior hanging below the blade ??? Hmmmm.... Kyle   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 11:11 am:    I wonder what the valet thought of that. Probably removed the "valet certified rover" sticker post haste. Sorry, couldn't resist. Tom   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 11:14 am:    lol , probably thought it was a giant Latte container.... Kyle   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 11:16 am:    Not a bad idea. Put a spigot on that thing and keep it filled with libations. Close up all the other vacuum hoses out, hook up the hose on the bottom, run the hose the the drives seat, and hit the washer button for fun that hasn't been seen since the beer bong. Or maybe, just maybe, it can be converted to a hooka. I think I hear some sitar now.... Tom   p m Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:11 pm:    Mike, i know that in verbal pissing contest i will eventually lose to you or some others, so there's no point to argue. Just remind you that i exactly quoted your comment on ARB, without warping anything. I don't care much about TO's bumper, i think you don't, either, so there was nothing about you slamming Matt in my post. now, back to the bumper issue. While I envy everybody that has a blade on their trucks, I know that I drive mine on the street every day, in thick traffic, with many pedestrians and bicycles. Having an ARB vs. a blade may mean a difference between a bruise and broken pelvis or hip on some kid that jumps into the street (although, the fairlead bracket on the ARB's a can opener, too). I am sure you know the relative position of your blade to a rice rocket's driver's head. Out of all, I think Kyle's given the most thought to his bumper design, so he may have something to say about it. I'd love to have his blade, with ARB/RRC-style hoop on it - but if he doesn't want to make it, it ain't gonna happen. Now, not to say you're obsessed with it, but you repeatedly mention the ability of your truck to be "driven up to any 5 star restaurant, be valet parked." This comment comes in nearly all technical discussions you take part in; there must be something I don't understand - I had no problems with doing that in a beat-up Caprice with a KBB value even below my IQ. I just don't give a shit about what a valet think about me, and don't understand why you do, not belonging to a mall crawler type. peter   Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 12:29 am:    Moe, I am sorry I didn't respond. I thought I was just putting my $.02 in. Here goes: The ARB bumper's approach angle is not quite as good as the T/O bumper's. It's just a few degrees, but every little bit counts. I also like the placement of the winch better on the T/O. This leads to the recovery points. T/O offers those Dixon Bates pins, which I think kick ass. You could put them on the ARB, but it only comes with those holes in the sheet steel. I have never really sit them down side by side and examined them, but I believe the T/O offering's steel is slightly thicker. I think ARB only uses 1/8", but I'm not sure, so check it out if it will affect your decision. I know that T/O bumpers use 3/16", with a 1/4" winch mount. I think the ARB is great for the purpose it was designed for, crossing bush and smashing 'roos. I just think the T/O offering is designed more for wheeling. Many people love their ARBs though, but I don't think I'd be satisfied with one. I personally like the look better as well, but that's just me. Cheers, Kennith   Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 12:45 am:    Michael, I'm going to stick to my guns about the T/O/ARB comparison. I still think the T/O is better. Price-wise, you may be right. They have not been cheap, there was a recent price-cut, however, that made them more reasonable. I have a feeling that there is a large mark-up there as well, but I also feel that it may cost him a lot to make those things as he probably dosn't use very sophisticated techniques. This may or may not be the case, correct me if you know otherwise. The KVT bumper you spoke of is foreign to me. I would love to learn more about it, but please remember what I said: "The TO one is far superior in all aspects if you ask me, and I'm buying one myself." What you said actually confirmed my statement. You said: "...the ARB is just a fucking lost cause...". Even if the T/O was just marginally not bad, it would still be better than something that was a "lost cause". I'd like to read more about the KVT, where do I go? Cheers, Kennith   Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 12:58 am:    Moe, I would like to touch up on one of my comments earlier. I like the winch placement better because it makes it very easy to spool the cable in and keep it tight. It's right out in the open, where I like it. Cheers, Kennith   Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 01:00 am:    Moe, I would like to touch up on one of my comments earlier. I like the winch placement better because it makes it very easy to spool the cable in and keep it tight. It's right out in the open, where I like it. Cheers, Kennith   Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 01:02 am:    oops   jerry quintana Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 01:34 am:    what about rovertym anyone had any experience with there bumpers. i live in colrado springs and am thinking of going with rockware custom bumpers but they are about 1000 each. they are building a disco right now i am going to look at it tomarrow for ideas. ill see it they will let me take some pictures of it.   Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 01:49 am:    Michael, Sorry man,I guess I had a brain fart, of course I have seen Kyle's bumper before. I don't know what comes over me sometimes, my memory does things that are a bit too strange to be funny. Your right, though, it is a looker. Why is it out the window? Cheers Kennith   Moe (Moe) Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 02:02 am:    Kennith, please settle down. Nice attempt on the TO defense, but in the end the 1 degree difference in approach angle and the fact that the fairlead is just waiting to be ripped off, still doesn't make up for $300 difference when compared to standard ARB. While I can understand and do support companies during start-up periods, if they can't in the long run bring their prices down to match the competitor, why pay more for a similar product?   Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 02:39 pm:    Moe, I agree the prices could be a little lower, but he has recently expressed interest in lowering them. Perhaps the benefits aren't worth 300 more dollars. That is just personal preference. I'd rather save up and get the T/O product. You might want to just hit the trails, because the ARB is, with the exeption of front end clearance, as good. It comes down to how Scott feels. You are right about the fairlead, and when I get mine I have a modification I will make to correct this. I am probably going to call Matt and tell him about it, hopefully he will impliment it. Hopefully Matt reads these threads and knows there is something to be remedied. Until then though, it is not an academic matter as we have made it. It is simply personal preferance. Better approach angle, easy spooling in, exposed fairlead, or a tucked away fairlead, less approach angle and front end clearance and dramatically lower price. Cheers, Kennith   James Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 03:03 pm:    Just a thought on ARB. I have hit two deer with my ARB with NO damage to my truck or ARB at all. After 9 days in MOAB, I only hit the underside of the ARB once and that was going through the golden crack. Approach angle no problem. I drive off road about 20 hours a week and have hit small trees and large stumps all with no damage to my truck or ARB. I looked at all bumpers for a year and price was no concern since I had a check from my insurance company. I needed a strong,well made bumper that lasts and I found it in the ARB. Never doubt ARB unless it's that shitty Air-bag version. Just my experience.   Ron L Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 06:21 pm:    Hey All, I have the Shitty Air Bag ARB on my DII. I dont recall having to modify the truck to do the install. One thing I can tell you is that I have already put it through its paces in front of many who post here on Dweb. I personally feel its an installation issue. I believe that with proper installation its a good design. I am not here to argue a point, because quite frankly its pointless. If I had to do another bumper, I would probably just send a money order to Dweb ATTN KVT, and hope that it wont be returned. I bet if you just ask he'll make you one. I still have NO COMMENT on the TO bumper ;-). Ron L www.discoweb.org/ronl/index.htm   Ron L Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 06:41 pm:    Kennith Do you have a picture of your Disco with the TO bumper on it? Ron L   ted Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 07:00 pm:    What about a $afari Guard bumper??? How do they stack up against ARB and TO?   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 07:40 pm:    ron, kennith didn't get a bumper yet.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 08:01 pm:    what we really need is a few guys with big cajones to slam their trucks with $G, ARB, TO, TJM, KVT, etc bumpers into each other head-on. I'll volunteer to smash my stocker...   Kim S (Roverine) Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 08:13 pm:    LOL, "The Grand Slam Smash Off" hehehe Kim yes I'm lurking on the bumper threads again, LOL   Chu Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 10:29 pm:    Can you slam into mine? One gets bored with the same old bumper. Plus, your insurance should take care of it. Kim, I don't think we'll ever get bored with the bumper threads. People take bumpers so personally. chu   Mike Little Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 11:12 pm:    I have seen the Rockware bumper on a few Discos now and what I like about it is that Matt will custom build per request ( lights, Hi Lift mounts etc )if you can leave the vehicle. It seriously has me thinking about removing my ARB this year and having one built to fit a Husky. Mike   Ron L Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 11:23 pm:    Ho, That point was made clearly at the beginning of the thread. I just got a little confused with Kenniths sales pitch of the pros and cons of the TO bumper. I figured with that kind of information he may have been applying some experience. I especially enjoy the approach angle theory. Yeah you may have more angle, but you also have more sticking out, so depending on your approach, and your skill this factor may or may not apply. Quite honestly both options cancel each other out. This statement really got me sold! "I think the ARB is great for the purpose it was designed for, crossing bush and smashing 'roos. I just think the T/O offering is designed more for wheeling. Many people love their ARBs though, but I don't think I'd be satisfied with one" Its all there in plain English, so clearly I made the wrong choice since there are no "roos" here on the west coast. And as far as modifying the TO on the fairlead, well ARB modification would be really easy, all it takes are two welds and the problems are solved. One thing I do know, I spent less, and I have the assurance that when I hit something at highway speeds my airbag will deploy. I have the assurance that when I recover 5 Land Rovers in a row, the bumper does not budge. Most importantly I don�t have a "cool guy" telling me that the bumper was designed to offer more protection than a factory bumper, still maintain a "good appearance" but "it is not bullet proof". Do us a favor and preach after you have put it through some work. The KVT was designed with "offroading" in mind. KVT based the design according to experience. RT same thing, designed with off road in mind. ARB designed with off road in mind and safety on the highway, it�s a compromise that some here take because we value our family more than a 5-700 bumper. Ask TO if they can offer you experience with the result or aftermath of a front end collision, Ask TO if the bumper fails for any reason will they stand behind it (further than just replacing it). ARB is a big company. Consider that when making your next purchase. I can go further into the knowledge of steel thickness and recovery point options, but I would just be wasting my time. Call ARB and ask one of their techs why the design is such, why they did and didn�t do certain things. I bet you will get more than just "sales pitch", better yet Call Expedition Exchange, ask their opinion on the matter. When it comes to something this important, Experience makes a world of difference. MV....I missed an opportunity to meet you at TH. When will you make it back out here, or better yet organize something in between this summer. Id like to get together with you and Bluegill. I have heard some stories about you guys! Kim, ROFLMAO, have Greg chime in (after training) on the time I was not paying attention and stuffed the fairlead straight into the ground. I know how much he likes bumper threads. Chu, ROFLMAO Ron L   Garrett#46 Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 12:35 am:    Hey Ron you should tread lightly when you criticize Kennith. He knows his shit. If you want to know what Kennith's offroading experience level is like, just look at his website. http://www.discoveryoffroad.com/   Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 01:52 am:    Garrett, C'mon man, that's not fair, I don't have time to work on the site, and it's pretty obvious. That was a Damn relaxing vacation though. I love the outer banks. Ron, I never said anything about the T/O being safer in highway collisions. Nor did I mention anything about why who did what. I just stated what I felt and knew. As for my "sales pitch", I think you are overreacting. You brought up conserns, and I answered to them, that's all Ron. You seem to be distressed that I am not prone to purchasing an ARB. You seem equally irritated that I have chosen to voice my intentions of and reasons for buying a T/O bumper. Why does it matter so much to you? I am still not going to purchase an ARB, not because of you, or their company, but because I don't want one. BTW, I did measure it, and the ARB uses 1/8" steel. Cheers, Kennith   Ron L Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 03:19 am:    "You brought up conserns, and I answered to them, that's all Ron." ME? Where? "You seem to be distressed that I am not prone to purchasing an ARB" I could give a shit less what you put on your rig. Your only human and therefore prone to make mistakes. "You seem equally irritated that I have chosen to voice my intentions of and reasons for buying a T/O bumper." UHHH.........NO! but read on, (you sure sound like somebody else in that comment) I clarified my point for you. "BTW, I did measure it, and the ARB uses 1/8" steel." Your point being? Form, Function, Integrity all come together in proper design. ASK the GUY who designed the bumper for TO. "Why does it matter so much to you?" Kennith, FWIW I am trying to make a clear point to the person who posted this thread. Your full of shit...period! I dont care what he buys, so long as he gets a clear opinion from those who have actual experience with product. Do you see me having a problem with MV? He is voicing his clear honest opinion on how poor ARB is to him, Do I have a problem with this? NO! Do I have a problem with him voicing his opinion on the KVT? NO! I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE WITH THE PRODUCT. Garrett #46 thanks for the tip, however that is exactly what set me off in the first place. Like I said before, come back in couple of months and share with us your experience. I would really like to know about the powdercoat issue, as recent as you may have been told that has been corrected, was the same thing I was told a year ago. I dont like BS. I remember how much of it I was fed reading opinions like yours when I first got my rover. You sound just like the guy you are buying your bumper from. Is he cutting you a deal?   scott hodges (Sugarlandman) Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 10:35 am:    Thanks for all the opinions on this thread. Never realized that it could be such a point of contention for so many people. I spoke with the guys at Expedition Exchange and as I expected they were most helpful, very friendly and obviously very knowledgable. Again, I appreciate all the opinions/advice everyone has offered. Best wheeling to everyone. Scott   Greg Davis Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 01:21 pm:    Scott, if you really want and end to all of this, just get my front bumper. Oh wait, I'm not selling them. Nevermind. Not trying to be an ass, just adding some humor. If you want responses, mention the word bumper. People on this board are more loyal to their brand of bumper then they are to their own family!   Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 02:46 pm:    To all, I give up. It's been fun. Ron, Is it a series II you have? Because in one of the galleries there is a badass picture of a muddy rover in a parking lot, taken by a Ron. Cheers, Kennith   Ron L Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 05:53 pm:    Kennith, http://www.discoweb.org/ronl/113.jpg Thats me. No hard feelings. Keep us updated Have a great weekend Ron   Kim S (Roverine) Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 11:22 pm:    Ron (L) & Chu, Cheers to ALL Love You All ... (even you Kyle! HAHAHA ) Kim   Kim S (Roverine) Posted on Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 12:58 am:    Oh, gee, one last thought ... (don't want to feminize this BB too much, LOL) ... and for all you guys at Pirate4X4: Love you too! Kim ;-)   Ron Posted on Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 02:40 am:    LOL Kim, FWIW the only thing I did not like about Kent's T/O bumper was that some of the welds were less than pretty. They looked strong but had some splatter and were not of the smooth uniformity of what you see on something from rovertym (or even safari garbage). does this matter? To me no. Is it better than the airbag ARB, HELL YES! Can you make the ARB strong for less than the price of a TO bumper, probably. At the time I had not perfected the "flex test" (jumping up and down on the end to see if it is prone to smile in a hit) but when I see Kent again I will ask if I can try if he thinks the bumper is up to it And far as the testing SG flexes some, DI non airbag ARB flexs a bit less and rovertym does not move. Ron   Ron L Posted on Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 04:38 am:    "At the time I had not perfected the "flex test" (jumping up and down on the end to see if it is prone to smile in a hit) but when I see Kent again I will ask if I can try if he thinks the bumper is up to it" Interesting.......Very Interesting. You should put together a tech article on this technique. Ron L   Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Posted on Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 03:40 pm:    Ron L, You bet, and happy wheeling. Cheers, Kennith   Kent Westbrook Posted on Sunday, May 26, 2002 - 01:16 am:    Ron, Tell me more about the "flex test" and maybe I'll try it myself on the TO! FWIW, I really like the KVT and RTE bumpers but I don't think they were available when I was looking. The thing about the TO that bugs me the most is the way the fairlead sticks out, so I'd like to hear more about Kennith's modification ideas there. Kent   Ron Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 02:12 am:    Kent, The flex test is to stand on the corner of the bumper and jump up and down (holding the brush bar helps to keep balanced) and see how much the end moves/flexes. Also if it is loose and prone to rotate this will show up. The less it flexes the less likely it will bend when you slam into something. Ideally you want two large people doing this but one sufficiently large and vigerous person will be ok. On alyssa's SG you can see some movement in the end, on the rovertym the bumper does not even deflect a little. I have not done this on an airbag arb or a TO so I have no way to know conclusively what type of results will occur (part of me is worried I would wreck the rush cans on the airbag arb ) If you want to reduce the fiarlead issues I would just buy a hawse fairlead. They are quite inexpensive and much lower profile. The downside is they are a bit harder on the cable than a properly functioning roller. Ron   [email protected] Posted on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 01:36 pm:    Wow...just got informed of this thread...quite an interesting discussion. This has happened on the yahoo groups chat page and flames have been thrown around there plenty of times. Do a search and I did list some of the differences between the ARB and ours. Which one you want is totally subjective. Some people want thin blades...others want chuncky brush bars...some want superwinches others want warn...again...it is subjective. Every person has their ideal bumper in mind. I designed the DS II front with a certain vision and what you see is not the end product, but the closest first incarnation. Changes happen along the way. Even price changes...they do get lowered....like they did recently. I know from a consumers point of view it's still expensive...but I am not taking 'round the world trips on the bumpers I'm selling ;-). Kennith, as for the fairlead...I've smacked the DS I fairlead several times and have had to replace it once. The bumper was fine. I welcome suggestion on improvements. The Hawse Fairlead might be an excellent solution to the problem...not sure how it would attach though....We're always looking to improve the design. Greg Davis said it right..."people are more loyal to their bumpers..." Do I want to become in-house as far as manufacturing goes...sure...would that help the overhead and allow for more price cuts.....sure....can I do it tomorrow...not unless I win the lottery or someone puts in an order for 10,000 bumpers. We stand behind our product manufacturing and workmanship...I've swapped parts out and try my hardest to fix problems. If you bash the thing into a wall or step doing 50mph...then we might have some disagreement. Of course, your bumper is the last thing I think you'll have to worry about. Just my $.02...I do lurk now and again...always trying to pay attention..but I've been busy so my replies aren't always timely... for those who don't know...our email adress has changed - [email protected] M@TT   Moe (Moe) Posted on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 05:50 pm:    Matt, maybe you do want to reiterate the differences between the Trek and the ARB bumpers, as there are plenty who read this board but are not on yahoo groups. It looks like your TO bumper has a slightly improved approach angle compared to the ARB. As I mentioned above, that protruding fairlead cancels out that benefit and if you personally have had to replace a fairlead maybe some remedy is in order? Can the fairlead be recessed into the bumper or is the winch placement preventing this? Sorry, I admit to not having seen the TO bumper in person. I'm not asking you to provide bumpers to the public at a loss--you are in this to make a living--what I would like to see is a few reasons why customers should pay more for the TO compared to the ARB. Protecting the fairlead from potential damage would be one solid advantage over the ARB.   MudRunner74k Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 02:19 am:    Matt- you stated that you designed the Series II front bumper, but isn't it a knock off of the Series I bumper except for a few modifications? I heard you were a new partner in the co. and the bumper I saw on a Trek vehicle was at least 3 years ago in Colorado, so who really designed it and should get the credit for it? The Disco I saw had front and rear bumpers, sliders, etc. obviously all of which were designed before you came aboard. I met the owners of Trek Outfitters, are they still with you? or are you the sole owner now? Please fill me in.   Ron Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 03:19 am:    A hawse mounts just like a roller. Same holes. Allprooffroad has some really sweet aluminium ones or you could just pick one up from warn or stupidwinch or ramsey. Should be about $20 at most. They are thin and as they are solid can pretty much not be broken. Ron   Ron Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 03:20 am:    http://www.allprooffroad.com/winches.html   [email protected] Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 12:10 pm:    Moe and mud runner, Excellent points...I'll look in my saved emails for the Trek description email. As for the fairlead canceling out the approach angle. If you're always hitting a big step with a level edge straight on...sure the fairlead sticks out. (I smashed into a step trying to get back around a trail to help recover a rolled 101...I'll admit we were in a rush to get the truck outta the way and it could have ben avoided with a bit more time and planning...as most cases in off-roading...a little time and thought and your truck shouldn't have a nick on it...anyway)A lot of times your hitting a single rock...a pile of boulders...off-angle approaches...so on...and the approach angles in front of the tires is better than the ARB....you only lose it directly in front of the winch. (About 24 inches of the whole width of the bumper) That was a trade off in our design. But...the Hawse fiarlead seems like a great solution. I even think there's still a Hawse type fairlead for the Master Pull ropes. As for knocking off anything...isn't every bumper a knockoff of the same idea? Just slight differences. It's the differences which create all the arguements/discussions. As for the DS I front and rears...those were designed by the previous owners and their fab shop (Steve, Tina & Greg and his wife at the time) I bought out Greg and Yuli and dumped the fab guy. We see Greg every once and a while. Steve, Tina and I have continued the company. As for designing the DS II bumpers...I didn't even look at the DS I. We took a DS II stock bumper...cut up some steel and tried to mimic the stock lines as close as possible. (The very idea which led me to purchase Trek Outfitters. I wanted stuff having different lines than what was out there.) It took about four months to get something that fit several different test trucks. Winch basket was placed where it's best accessed. Similar to a stock winch mount... Steve and Tina remarked that the brush bar should look similar in it's design to the DS I for some product continuity/identity. That's it. After buying 1/2 of Trek Outfitters...I've taken over the design part of Trek. Slowly making changes to the items as we learn more from you all. I'll get the email with the list of Trek numbers and such. M@TT   JRoc Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 09:30 pm:    $565(ARB) or $900(Trek)? Matt explain to me why your bumper cost $335 more than a comparable bumper made in Australia? I love your rock sliders but the price is a bit high. How bout offering a discount to people who mention DiscoWeb? I think I'd be cheap advertising and money well spent.   Ron Posted on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 12:09 am:    "I even think there's still a Hawse type fairlead for the Master Pull ropes." You mean the one on the link I posted above? Ron   [email protected] Posted on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 02:28 pm:    JRoc, First..we do offer discounts to members of Rover Clubs. Now...Everyone asks the same question....I wish I could meet ARB's prices. If I did, I'd be paying you guys to put our stuff on your trucks...Now that's not very smart business is it? It involves production runs and infrastructure. Pumping out 100's of bumpers a month in house versus 10's of bumpers every 6 months on contracts. Simple economics. Trek is basically a two man operation that's 3 yrs old....not an international 25 yr old company. As we grow and our costs drop, so do the prices of our products. That's the goal. Do I beleive the Trek bumper design is worth the money and fairly priced...yes...do others? that's their opinion. Am I striving to get the prices down? yes...I just reduced the prices by $200 this past month since we improved the production process and ran more bumpers...will everyone still complain about prices? yes. And comparing our bumpers has been done. Are the little differences worth it...it's subjective. I'll never convince ALL of you that the differences and quality in our Trek stuff is worth it. Greg Davis said it right,"...people are more loyal to their brand of bumper...." Have we had ANY problems with our bumpers other than powder coating and some bent fairleads....NO. Is that worth $300...you guys tell me. I try to give you all the same customer service and warrantees as ARB. Not everyone will be happy...but we'll do the best to make you content and confident in your purchase...has Trek Outfitters put money in my pockets...Not yet. But in 25 yrs...I sure as hell hope so. ARB started in a garage. We're only several steps past the garage stage... Sooner than I'm sure ARB was in 3 yrs...but we're trying to compete with the big kid on the block. And we're still swinging. If $900/$950 is more than you have to spend on a bumper, then you have three options 1. save more money 2. wait 'til the price drops 3. don't get a Trek Front bumper. M@TT   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 02:40 pm:    Both bumpers are pretty scary as far as sticking out. All that sticking out to house that little tiny smoking winch series.... RIBBIT!! Kyle   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 08:04 pm:    Bringing back to the top. Kyle   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 08:20 pm:    Seems there is a giant pussy in this thread ? So who is it ? Kyle   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 08:27 pm:    Hmm , I guess taht was a little stupid on my part. The pussy wont say who he is cause its the nature of the pussy... Like that Anon pussy up there... And he tries to say he is posting anon to piss someone off , attempting to distract from the fact that he is a pussy.... Kyle   Moe (Moe) Posted on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 09:47 pm:    Nice link Ron. That hawse fairlead looks like good a solution to the protruding lip. Actually, I think the Aedofab bumper is even worse in that area, as that fairlead actually faces down--even though it is tucked further back. I suppose if you go with ARB or Trek, you are stuck with a relatively poor approach angle compared to others. The real problem is that even with a killer approach angle we are all still carrying around that big ass in the back, which sometimes has a mind of its own   JRoc Posted on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 10:29 pm:    Hey Matt, Thanks for being so gracious in your reply. I didn't know that you offered a discount to rover clubs. I checked the website and didn't see any mention of it, but thanks for the info. I still think TO's slider design is the nicest combination of form and function. Speaking of which, have you seen the KVT designed front bumper? Wow! The guy has the nicest design out there by far!!! And even though he's a little harsh, I think he has some valid points concerning the TO's design. Anyway, good luck in the future, and you guys definately have the customer service thing down, which is more than half the battle!   Crash (Crash) Posted on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 12:14 am:    There really seems to be something missing from this thread and that is the "purpose" that these bumpers are built to (unless I did not shuffle through this enough and I missed something). The TO and the ARB bumpers are not built for the purpose of off roading--that may be a corralary (SP?) for their purpose, but not the reason for them. To compare them to the "KVT" or whatever else that was built for the off road market is useless. They are in two separate catagories. For the on road market, the KVT and others leave a lot to be desired--like they would allow the front of a disco to easily ride up over another car possibly shearing the cabin--or whatever--that is not the point--they don't care about that and neither should those that purchase them. The TO or ARB or whatever have the task of blending many things together such as liability, safety, obstructions, offroading and the such together. Others accel at offroading. Whatever. Just think of what your needs are. Personally, I think the KVT is phenon for off road...I just have the majority of my 2000 DII miles (61,000m) on road and that would not suit me...it does not make me any less for not having it, though...   Ron Posted on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 02:44 am:    I admit it, I am the pussy Ron   Ron Posted on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 02:44 am:    WTF are you talking about kyle? Ron   Kyle Posted on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 11:23 am:    Ron it seems that one of the pussies in this thread decided to do some pussyfied kinda shit through E mail... More then likely that Anon fuck as he has already displayed that he is a pussy... Kyle   Marc Posted on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 11:33 am:    Umm, Kyle, I agree with you on anon postings - they suck and I think the people who post them are cowards, BUT: maybe this particular coward isn't responding because his last post in this thread was from May 15 (22 days ago).   Kyle Posted on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 11:34 am:    Well ya never know , I doubt very highly that puss boy will post anymore... Kyle   Kyle Posted on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 12:07 pm:    Back up top   kyle Posted on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 01:48 pm:    Cmon puss boy ? Nothing ? LOL . I guess monitor muscles only take ya so far... Kyle   Curtis N (Curtis) Posted on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 03:01 pm:    Kyle, Have you pulled the IP yet? If so, e me offline: [email protected] Curtis   Kyle Posted on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 03:32 pm:    Yeah , an IP here and an IP there , but , you know its hard to find which pussy it could be.... I mean , there is an Ocean of them.... Guess that says something about the Men of today... Its sad... Kyle   Ron L Posted on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 03:58 pm:    here kitty kitty kitty Wasn't Me Ron L   shorty Posted on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 03:59 pm:    can anyone tell me what the part number is for Running board adapters ( or whatever that piece that connects the RB to the frame is???   Kyle Posted on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 08:02 pm:    Up top again...   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 11:40 am:    but why up top?   Kyle Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 12:08 pm:    Better then the bottom. I figure that if the content in the thread was so bad as to drive the pussy to start sending mails then I would like it to always be right in his face.... Sooooooo , now its up top again... Kyle   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 12:19 pm:    hmmm... i dont' quite understand what you saying... you trying to confuse   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 03:35 pm:    well.. it's friday already.. oh my!   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 04:59 pm:    yes, it is indeed Friday...   Kyle Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 05:17 pm:    Perhaps when I am there Ho we should all meet and pull up into a 5 star resteraunt... Kyle   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 05:33 pm:    oh yeah, that would be great. you like french? you should try Patina on melrose. here's the typical tasting menu: Ceviche of Maine lobster, sea scallops and Pacific oysters Grilled Scottish salmon with pencil asparagus and emulsion of English peas Liberty farms duck breast with foie gras ravioli and lavender honey gastrique Roasted beef sirloin with grilled short ribs, Maui onions, wild mushrooms and red wine jus Hand-pulled Austrian strudel with banyuls-braised griottes and black beer ice cream   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 05:43 pm:    I just have a bashed up stock bumper, so I guess I couldn't go...I'll be the guy standing on the corner with a piece of cardboard that says "will work on your rover for fine french food." Maybe anon will flip me a quarter...   chu Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 05:56 pm:    Ho, you skip lunch today or something? Looks like your getting your keyboard wet. chu   Kyle Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 06:21 pm:    Blue , Ho , perhaps we should just get lost in the woods and camp out , eating tri tip and anything else we can scavenge. Perhaps Anon would join us in a nice secluded area of the California desert ? Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 06:27 pm:    grand idea Kyle...a "dig your own hole in the desert" party...I like...   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 06:35 pm:    well, dont' matter. either way, it'll be 5-star quality stuff.   Curtis N (Curtis) Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 06:49 pm:    damn...you guys are making me hungry Ho, Any chance of a repeat of the ICS Challenge this year? I will be sure to make it this time...locked and loaded...well, at least to the PRC border that is... Curtis   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 07:07 pm:    is this a challenge? the ICS was just the showdown. we haven't had any challengers yet.... so, if you think you can...   Kyle Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 07:28 pm:    Well Ho , I was thinking that since I already been to Cali I would just go to longmont Colorado instead. You know , sometimes when people cant attend "The party" , you have to bring "The party" to them.... Kyle   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 07:32 pm:    hmm... longmont? what the hell they have in that town anyways? anyone from there to tell me if they have good butchers? or anything fun?   Curtis N (Curtis) Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 10:50 pm:    hehe..my culinary skills have long since waned since marriage. I just show up for good food. You know...five star restaurant stuff My bumper looks like Blue says his does. Longmont CO huh? Chime me in if you guys are going to visit. I am not much the partying type, but I always travel with a couple of buds that are. You might know them Curtis   Kyle Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 10:59 pm:    I believe I do Curtis and I doubt they are the bullshit E mailing type.... Kyle   Curtis N (Curtis) Posted on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 11:17 pm:    Nope. These guy like to stay low. They don't send out emails to mess with people Curtis   Kyle Posted on Saturday, June 08, 2002 - 08:33 am:    up   Kyle Posted on Saturday, June 08, 2002 - 05:34 pm:      Kyle Posted on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 10:03 am:    Cmon now pussy..... Does this mean you dont wanna play with me ? Sad I tell ya , just sad..... Kyle   chrisvonc Posted on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 10:44 pm:    LOL.. WTF are you going on about? Just out the bastard already.   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 05:27 pm:      Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 05:54 pm:      Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 08:15 pm:      Justin H Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 12:02 am:    I just recently purchased the prerunner-style blade bumper from Rovertym Engineering and couldn't be happier with the quality, finish and performance of the end product. The bumper, coupled with the integrated front skid plate, provides the best approach angle in the business in an absolutely bombproof package.