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Milan
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 09:09 am: | 
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OK, the piece of crap Disco is acting up again. It's a 96 and the description of the problem(s) is a bit long-winded, so bear with me please.
Some of you may remember my intermittent stalling problem. The Disco would be fine then in stop and go traffic in hot weather (I think it only does this under these conditions) it would stall unexpectedly. When in N it won't even turn the starter. When placed in P it will crank and eventually start. If it starts immediately it idles low (like 500rpm or less in P) on verge of stalling. Eventually it clears up and drives fine until next time. If it does not start immediately, it, will after sitting for 45 mins or so. Then it starts right up with no idle problem. The dealer has replaced the fuel pump and put a fuel pressure gage on. Then one day I could not start it as there was no fuel pressure. They replaced a solenoid box on the fender. No warranty, I footed the tow bill, the repair and the parts. $700! I told them beforehand that the problem seemed different than my intermittent stall and that the solenoid box was not it. Anyway it was fine all winter until last week it was stalling and then again catching while driving. Took it in, got new VSS for free (so far) and I do think this was the problem then. However, now the old/original problem has reappeared yesterday. I think the engine needs a new ECU but what the heck do I know. Since it also seems to leak at the rear main seal again (10000 km since replaced) and the oil cooler lines are soaking wet, I'm thinking of doing something more drastic. The engine runs good and I know it would work however I'm thinking what if it's a lemon and something else is wrong. So here are my options:
1) Sell/trade - will loose a lot of money as used Disco's dropped in price dramatically (more than $10K) about 2 months after I bought ours.
Result: No more stalling, no more disco. Unless I can find another low-miles gem (a 95 if possible), then who knows what the box of chocolates will give me.
2) Convert the 4.0L to distributor ignition and carb. I can source everything but the timing cover locally and if need be a local dealer can get the cover for me too. Estimated cost $2000 CDN and I do all the labor. Who's got the frigging time though?
Result: I keep the disco, no more stalling problems and I'm still stuck with the lazy, leaky POS 4.0L but maybe the Edelbrock manifold and cam will wake it up a bit.
3) Drop in a chev 305. Not 350 but just a 305. Cheaper and better on gas. Estimated cost $1100 CDN + new engine - 4.0L cost if I can sell it (as I think the engine is really OK). Again, all labor has to be done by me and who's got the time? Although this may be less labor than the conversion to carb.
Results: Stronger engine, no leaks, no stalling problem, stuck with a POS Disco that cost me more trouble and nerve than it's worth. Additionally I may have to address other stuff like front suspension. This may mean more labor than carb conversion in the end and who knows how it will handle with all the weight up-front.
What would you do? What do you think I should do. Any other ideas/options? I do love the truck and I do think the engine is good but then again, read the above.
Thanks for your patience reading this and any thoughts on resolving the problem.
Milan |
JEspelien (Superj)
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 09:41 am: |
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Go for the small block but screw the 305. Find a complete used TPI 5.7, buy a conversion harness and drop it in. If possible find one with aluminum heads ( all vettes, some special F cars) then the weight will be close enough that you won't even notice any change in front ride height. As I have posted in the past the dire warnings you hear that a rover won't like an extra 150 lbs in the engine compartment usually come from the same goofballs that hang an extra 100lbs of winch and bumper and then add a second battery. Plan on changing the stupid underdrive high ratio in the TCase eventually too. All the original TPI applications where substantially overdriven so the motors were built to build torque but they really run out of steam quick over 4700 rpm. They work much better in a truck than they ever did in the vette. |
Milan
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 11:03 am: |
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Well, I don't really want a TPI either. I hate EFI and the only one I'd live with would be a TBI but I'm thinking carb.
I thought about aluminum block and heads but that's pricy so maybe I'll go for just the heads. I would also prefer a crate engine if I'm going to all the trouble of swapping but this may be cost prohibitive, so I'm gonna look into a used one. The reason I mentioned weight is because I will also add a bumper and winch, so in addition to the engine I don't want to end up with nose heavy monster.
I had both the 350 and a 305 and liked the 305 for economy. Everybody else suggests the 350. I think the 305 would have enough power and shoudl certainly be peppier than the 4.0L. Or am I fooling myself here? |
p m
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 12:49 pm: |
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JE, what about 4.3 V6 Vortec? or 4.0 V6 Ford?
peter |
Milan
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 12:55 pm: |
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pm,
The only conversion I know of that will bolt up easily into the disco is the small block V8. I know the 4.3 is the same block sans 2 cylinders but I'd like to bet on a tried and true conversion. I talked to Mark's Adapters and was told it's quite easy as the engine demensions are close. 2 adapter plates and a set of engine mounts, rework the PS hoses and fuel delivery and it's all done. Stock radiator can be used and a shroud may have to be fabbed.
Any other opinions, people? |
p m
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 02:05 pm: |
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Milan,
a 4.3 Vortec is lighter by a lot than the 350 with iron intake/heads, and torque- and hp-wise it is a bit better than rover's V8. I don't know of any caveats or shortfalls, but it is least likely candidate for "collateral damage."
peter |
p m
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 02:07 pm: |
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about the other engine - i've owned a 4WD aerostar, just a hair lighter than a stock disco, and this engine (rated at 160hp) felt ways stronger than the disco's. hasn't caused me any trouble and hasn't sprung a single leak until the gentle age of 133kmi when I sold the van.
peter |
Milan
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 02:40 pm: |
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Keep them coming. I appreciate all the comments so far. |
Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d)
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 05:05 pm: |
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Milan,
Unless you really want to change the engine (seems overkill to me!) get someone else's rover, and start swapping the bits over and see if it makes an improvement. For example, you said the computer might be caput. Well, swap it out and see.
Otherwise, you're basically limited to fuel delivery and/or ignition problems, so when its idling bad, pull the leads out and see if they make any difference to the idle.
Make sure each plug has a nice strong spark (get a spare plug, and put each lead one by one onto it and hold it to ground - careful not to touch the end).
Then check that each cylinder has a f*#k load of gasoline coming out if you take out the spark plug.
Finally clean the maf sensor or swap over with your buddy for a while. Check the fuel filter. Check the connections on the fuel pump, and where the connections end other side. Check your fuel tank vapor release is not blocked. Check the fuel is not wet (add a drying agent).
Let us know along the way what effects are seen.
Dean |
Milan
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 05:27 pm: |
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Good point Dean. If only I could find a buddy willing to do that. I'll have to phone a couple of them and see.
Stupid question: How do you check the fuel vapor release? I thought that might be my problem and on couple of occasions tried to release the pressure in the gas tank by openning the filler cap. It only seemed to help once and only for few yards. Then it stalled again. It did not work the second time. So I don't think it is that but it still could be. The fuel filter should be OK as it gets replaced with the pump (isn't pump, filter and sending unit one component?). I guess I should read the manual more often.
It is hard to check the plugs and leads as if I let go off the gas, it'll stall. Mind you I could have somebody hold it but with the problem being intermittent I may not have that extra set of feet. Remote starter won't help as I'd like to have both hands free to poke around so holding the throttle with one won't do. I guess propping it might work. Additionally, I think subsequent restarts seem to clear the problem, so every time this happens I have limited working time span to troubleshoot. |
Milan
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 05:29 pm: |
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As far as swapping the ECU goes, I wanted the dealer to do that. I think they should have a working spare that they could loan out to confirm or eliminate the problem. I'm pretty sure my buddy will be reluctant to lend it to me, being so finicky and pricy an item. |
Richard Dekkard (Dekkard)
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 05:32 pm: |
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didnt you say your in Canada? Throw a 300 Tdi in there and be done with it... should be a dime a dozen up there... If they arent, pull an older diesel out of one of the older 109 / 110 etc... dont forget the transfer case, etc..
prolly cost you $2- 3K and will last you 300,000 miles.. |
Bruce
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 06:12 pm: |
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Well not to make matters worse, but if you transplant an engine with more torque, what is your next weak link? Yup, I would summize a new set of issues with driveline, if a much higher torque is the result of a swap.
Just a thought. |
Milan
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 06:27 pm: |
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Richard,
Yes I'm up here in Canada but no diesels easily found plus I think I'd have to swap a new gear box in as well. The gear box being 5spd would not be good as my wife needs an auto.
Bruce,
I'm very gentle with the stupid pedal, so I don't think the 40 extra horses would kill anything. I also don't think there would be much more torque and if so, then I'll just have to be carefull or invest in better axleshafts as I think that would be the next weak link. I don't mind spending on what I know is better but buying another ECU, for example, not knowing if it will work or not, is just not going to happen. |
Milan
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 09:54 pm: |
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Back to the top...Where are the Rons, Hos, Kyles, Blues, Gills, ROVRTOMS, Johns, Perrones, Simons, Nadims, etc.?? |
Eric
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 10:24 pm: |
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Sounds like you are frustrated with the intermittent problems + oil leaks.
Just my opinion, the swap will have even more ghosts to chase than you have now. Swaps are a compromise at best and are almost never as reliable or inexpensive as fixing the stock unit.
My vote would be to spend the time and money searching for the real problem with your Disco. If you have the skill to do a swap, you have the skill to troubleshoot the current unit.
EFI fears are only due to the black box. Once you have the tools and documentation, EFI is a pussycat. A carb and distributor make the EFI go away, but the EFI may not be the real problem?
Everyone is so quick to point to the ECU because it is the one thing no one takes time to diagnose or understand. Ask a mechanic who understands EFI if he would prefer to work with a carb... most would take the EFI - better diagnostics, better performance in almost every case.
Try this:
There are three things required for an engine to run; mechanical compression, Proper air fuel mixture, and a properly timed spark.
Borrow a compression tester and you can eliminate mechanical compression.
Borrow a timing light and you can eliminate the properly timed spark (if it is not right a sensor to the ECU is bad).
This leaves the fuel system. Start at the injectors and work your way back... I mean all the way back to the fuel tank. It could be dirt, water, deposits, bad line, bad vent, bad regulator so on and so forth.
It is worth the time. At some point when it makes sense in your process take it to the dealer for just a diagnostic test of the sensors. Explain what you are trying to do and they may not charge for you to come back a few times between.
Take your time and be methodical, you will find it. It takes persistance and good notes. So does an engine swap?? |
Milan
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 10:58 pm: |
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Thanks Eric. The reason I'm hounding the dealer is because I still have warranty. The reason I dislike modern EFI's is because problems are NOT easy to diagnose. The ECU controls everything. Thus in many systems, if there's no fuel pressure, the coils will get no spark or vice versa if there's no spark, the fuel will get cut. In either case, you can't tell what's happening without a diagnostic tool. TBI on the other hand only controls the fuel delivery. That's why I accept it. Not wanting to sound like I don't want to accept advice I asked for, just stating my reasons. Oil leaks I can handle better but a rear main going after only 10K km is a bit much. Overall you're right, conversions are never easy and that's why I'm not jumping to it just yet.
I have a compression tester so I may do that this weekend and like you said start from square one. What's bad is that if the probelm does not exist just now, I can't even begin to tell what's wrong. That's why I'm frustrated. |
Milan
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 03, 2002 - 09:06 pm: |
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Am I talking to myself here?  |
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