| Author |
Message |
    
Mark (Mistert)
| | Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 11:59 pm: | 
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Hey folks,
I think that LR needs to build a better braking system for the Disco. Brakes with much more stopping power and less fade. The disco is such a heavy truck and my experience is that the brakes are somewhat small and worst of all they fade when under stress. I've always yearned for an aftermarket braking system (i.e. Brembo or Movit). Which I think would result in awesome stopping power, not to mention cool looks!! Your thoughts?????????/ |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 01:02 am: |
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Well,
I really don't think the brakes are underpowered for most use, I really like mine and they are quite strong (91 RR but similar to your Disco). If I lived in an area with mountains, I'd probably want something more. But, you are in luck to a degree.
ATE makes a new slotted and drilled rotor for our trucks. Several vendors have picked it up, incuding Atlantic British and Great basin Rovers. There are several formulations of pads available as well. I'd avoid the kevlars though as they don't get grippy until they are quite hot.
If you've got the money, stronger calipers and bigger rotors are available, but man are they costly. Movit does make an upgrade for the 38A RR but it may retrofit since the axle is similar. I think the price I saw was $2999 for the front axle set.
The real problem in all this is the brake fluid. That Castrol GTLMA that we run has a pretty low boiling point. A few hard stops and that stuff is getting very near to boiling and brake fade. LR says you have to use it because of the rubber in our braking system and the seals in the ABS components. I've still not heard anyone say they have used something better and gotten away with it. I use ATE Blue or gold in my BMW but I'm not trying it in the LR.
Atlantic British advertises that they have LR, Mintex, and Ferodo pads for our trucks. Maybe if you get some Ferodo pads, and the drilled and slotted rotors, you'd be more happy with your brakes.
Good luck,
-P |
Ron
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 04:22 am: |
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"That Castrol GTLMA that we run has a pretty low boiling point."
Huh, it has the same boiling point as other DOT4 fluids.
Is your MC toast? The discos brakes sucked for a while and then we replaced the MC and they got better.
Ron |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 08:59 am: |
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Not all DOT4 fluids have the same boiling point. It varies brand to brand. Castrol GTLMA is on the low end of the DOT4 spec. Castrol SRF is a DOT 4 with a very high boiling point (the highest I know of actually), Motul 600 is also quite high. The ATE Blue that I use is mid-pack but is common to use in high performance street applications.
The DOT4 spec, minimum boiling point is 311F. SRF boils at 590F dry. ATE boils at 536F, GTLMA at 446F, Motul at 585F, and Ford heavy duty at 550 (but it needs to be changed often as it takes on water much faster than others).
-P |
alhang
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 10:22 am: |
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I don't think it's the fluid, the swept area on the pads are just too small. My accord's pads are twice as large as the disco's. I've always wondered what they teach at those british engineering schools. |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 01:32 pm: |
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Yea,
The swept area could be higher, but I suspect that for the average speeds and terrain the truck would see, LR felt the brakes were more than adequate.
How would you propose to increase the swept area? Many people are running a 15" rim and so going to a much larger rotor is not going to be all that feasible. I suspect you could go to a 6 pot caliper but all you need to do is look at a Baer or Brembo catalog to know that even a pair of those is going to set you back $1500 or so. Then you run into the brake fluid problem again. More friction equals more heat. And heat is going to boil that fluid. Going to a slotted and cross drilled rotor will help mitigate that somewhat.
What do you think the best way to improve the brakes would be?
-P |
John Lee
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 01:39 pm: |
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"ATE makes a new slotted and drilled rotor for our trucks. Several vendors have picked it up, incuding Atlantic British and Great basin Rovers."
I don't know who makes the rotors AB is selling, but Bill Davis' rotors are from DBA (Disc Brakes Australia) and not ATE. |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 01:54 pm: |
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Thanks for the correction John. Someone who has seen them described them to me as the "same as AB is selling". I know that bill gets several products from Australia and your comments make more sense.
Have you seen these in person? How do they look? I'm due rotors in a month or two and have been thinking about these, but at $100 each, I'd like to know that they are quality units.
-P |
John Lee
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 02:49 pm: |
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I've both the AB rotors and the GBR rotors in person, and the GBR rotors put the AB ones to shame. It's not even close. I have no idea as to stopping power though. I would guess that the GBR ones are better though. The AB ones I've seen weren't slotted. |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 03:04 pm: |
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Do you know what GBR is charging for their rotors?
-P |
John Lee
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 03:05 pm: |
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Man, call Bill. |
JEEPETR
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 03:17 pm: |
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$89.99....
~Scott T. |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 03:23 pm: |
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Cool thanks.
-P |
alhang
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 06:36 pm: |
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P, the rotor is big enough, just needs to be ventilated. The pad itself is wide enough just needs more length. I believe most of these problems were addressed in the disco2, although i've only glanced at their brake setup. Also a more effective brake pad would need to be used less during a stop, reducing contact time and overall heat. Adding more pistons doesn't necessarily aid in the stopping either, for a truck i'd prefer the setup similar or more simplified than the present rover setup. more seals = more chances for leakage, and don't rovers leak enough already? |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 07:05 pm: |
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Rovers?? Leak?? What?
Aren't your rotors vented? They are on the Range Rover. That might be a dirt simple upgrade for you guys. Not sure how that would work with your ABS system being different though.
I'm not so sure about your idea that a more effective pad would be cooler. I mean, a certain amount of friction is needed to slow the rotor from one speed to another. Whether it happens over 10 seconds or 5 seconds, the total heat created is the same, right?
-P |
Ron
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 12:29 am: |
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Learn something everyday on boiling points.
No disco rotors are not vented. I tried to find spacers for the calipers (RR calipers are the same but have a spacer to accomidate the larger width vented rotor) but the only place I could find them is Zeus in the UK. Can't see putting stock rotors back on the disco and I am fairly sure it will fail inspection next year on rotor thickness (of course I might just take it to a redneck place where they would not know the spec).
Ron |
alhang
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 01:24 pm: |
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Whether it happens over 10 seconds or 5 seconds, the total heat created is the same, right
I don't think so, of course there are diminishing returns. But the logic that shorter braking times would leave a cooler disk make sense to me. Of course I am just talking theory, if anyone is an auto engineer and wants to chime in please do. And if any british engineering student wants to explain how little pads and solid discs are good for a disco, please explain that too. |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 02:04 pm: |
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hahahah... damn, you have a way with words...
I guess I was thinking of the problem like a common heating issue. Say, boiling water for instance. We both agree that pushing the pad against the rotor creates friction and that stops the truck, but creates heat as a byproduct.
I look at it like boiling a gallon of water with a gas stove or a candle. The same amount of BTUs is required to get the water to boil, but one does it much faster than the other. Again this is all theory, but it makes sense to me...
-P |
Dee Cantrell (Disco_Dad)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 04:33 pm: |
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All,
There was a comment about the rotors posted on EE a while back. It was a letter written to John Lee from Bill? at GBR. it was about the rotors specifically the new drilled and slotted ones.
Excellent read thanks, John for that post
The following is not an OPINION
I had the modified Lockheed calipers and the true center vented rotors on my 1988 RR. I purchased them from RPI. It cost me about 600$ for parts back then, It came with new wider Lockheed Calipers and the True center vented rotors. I think the rotors were from Bembo?
Until you try a setup like that you will never know what decent brakes are like on a RR or D1
The wider mass of those rotors really dissipated the heat and no fade ever. I based that test on a few descents from Tioga pass pulling a trailer.
You can all disagree with this and claim I am FOS but it worked outstanding, And when I parted out the RR I wanted to add that system to my D1. But I was not sure about blocking off one of the ports.
I did install a decent setup on my D1 it was a $$ compromise I used the ATE rotors and the ((NEW))EBC composite pads, I also installed new SS Paragon brake lines and did a total fluid flush with Vavoline synthetic.
When the rotors wear out in a few years I will go back to the center vented setup.
But I will never back to the stock rotors or use organic or semi m pads
This was a vast improvement over the stock system.
I don't have a long term feedback on the pads but no dust or squeals thus far. and it stops 100 x better than when new.
Time for the Anons to chime in
DD |
lynden
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 07:05 pm: |
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The only thing I would be careful of is using synthetic fluid. Isn't that a no-mix w/ out systems. I was going to switch to syn. fluid and was told not too... don't remember why... but maybe some of these guys know why. |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 08:10 pm: |
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Depends on what he is calling synthetic. DOT 5 is synthetic and absolutely doesn't mix with with DOT 4 since it is not hygroscopic. However, there is a DOT 4 compatible fluid in the DOT 5 family. It is called 5.1 in some places, and in others it is simply referred to as DOT 5 which causes some confusion. Original DOT 5 is not recommended for ABS equipped systems because it is very prone to forming bubbles.
If I were going to upgrade brake fluid, I'd just use the DOT 4 ATE or Motul. But both are expensive.
-P |
Disco_Dad
| | Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 12:28 am: |
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I used the Valvoline SynPower (Synthetic Formula))Dot 3& 4 Brake fluid |
PerroneFord
| | Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 12:51 am: |
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Ok, that makes sense. Any problems with the rubber seals or lines? You know that old Rover claim about ONLY using Castrol GTLMA which I always suspected was bunk?
-P |
Leslie N. Bright (Leslie)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 09:32 am: |
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I can't say w/ authority about newer ABS systems, but....
On ol' Series Rovers, yes, it really was a problem. Girling LMA was vegetable-based, and didn't have a problem with natural rubber. Draining, then switching to synthetic, pop, there goes all of the rubber in your brake system Not good.
If you're completely rebuilding your system on Series Rover, though, build to suit your tastes. But, if you've got an old Rover, you'd better go LMA to be safe.
Now, in newer Rovers, post-ABS, etc., I'd use whatever the manual says... my Disco's book says universal brake fluid having a minimum boiling point of 500deg F, and complies with FMVSS 116 DOT4.
FWIW...
-L |
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