Disco I Exhaust Manifold Problems

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Author Message   David Downing Posted on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 01:40 am:    98 Disco I with 87,000 miles The right exhaust manifold cracked about two years ago. Purchased new mainfold, had it installed and have had no problems. The left side manifold is a different story. Left manifold cracked about a year ago. Purchased new manifold and had it installed. Since that time the gasket between the manifold and down pipe has failed three times. Questions: Is there something in the installation process that could be causing this? Could the surface of the manifold that mates to the exhaust down tube be defective? Anyone have a similar experience? The guys doing the work are not LR Certified techs. I live 3 plus hours from dealer. Would it be worth the time and effort to trek to dealer for this service? Thanks for any and all comments David Downing 71 SIIA Ex-MOD 109 98 Discovery   streak Posted on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 10:11 am:    Check a later message talking about the frequency of manifold cracks. I had this problem with our D1 and have already had the exhaust manifold gaskets changed twice in my DII by the LR agents. I believe the problem is in the design and components used and not so much in the fitment. Pity they could not have learned from the D1 and corrected the problem in the DII. www.worst4x4.freeservers.com   Mike D1 Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 01:46 pm:    The "later message" was removed by the Disco web police. Too controversial I guess. So much for free speech about a serious problem most of us are paying for out of our own pocket.   Kyle Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 04:38 pm:    Well , start up a class action suit web page and hammer away Mike...... We just wont be your vehicle. The US doesnt need any more stupid bullshit. Its either covered under warranty or it isnt...... Seems simple enough to me.. Kyle   Mike D1 Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 01:34 am:    Kyle, I enjoy bantering with you from time to time. Sometimes I disagree and sometimes I am in your camp and say so. Do what you want with "your" Disco Web, but I think you are way off on this one. It lowers the integrity of Disco Web in a big way. Your removing that thread is nothing more than censorship on behalf of the Ford Motor Company. A truly open forum would be a much better approach to controversial issues on a public site like this, I am quite disappointed. I think higher than this of you and your partners. The fact is, there are hundreds if not thousands of us "little guys" that have had to replace our manifolds to the tune of several hundred each. They seem to crack just outside of the warranty. Don't get me wrong, I love my Discovery and have put over fifteen thousand in mods into it for offroad use. But this is a clear defect that they should pay for, not all of your BB members. There was a big case a bit before your time (early seventies as I recall) in which a document was leaked from Ford Motor Co. by an employee. Ford was aware of a dangerous defect and had calculated the cost of a recall vs. the cost of paying the one hundred or so families for the death of their family members. Paying for the hundred dead people was cheeper than the recall, so they decided not to fix the problem. I recite this only to point out you are covering for a huge company that seems to care most about the bottom line. To hell with the little guy.   J Lutz Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 01:43 am:    I have had nothing but trouble with the exhaust gaskets that you are talking about. However after about six new gaskets (finding out later none were bad) the local exhaust shop found that the factory welds on the head pipe, where the flange that the studs off the manifold go thru, was cracked where it was welded to the exhaust pipe. End of noise. Hope this helps.   Kyle Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 09:32 am:    Mike , the whole Exhaust system from the heads to the muffler is a flaming hunk of shit. But the fact still remains that it either breaks under warranty or out of warranty. Just like a swivel seal or a fan clutch or any other itms that will cost you a few hundred bucks to fix. The three of us will not promote the already crazy law suit madness in the US. Everyone thinks they have been wronged... Kyle   Mike D1 Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 12:42 pm:    Okay Kyle, I challenge you to start thread asking how many people have had manifold cracks. No talk of lawyers . Just a clean thread asking something like; "How many of you have had cracked manifolds on a Disco I." I am sure it's way more than fan clutch or swivel seal problems. I think this is a chronic problem. Post it and lets see.   Kyle Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 12:56 pm:    Challenge me ?? lol , man , I have had both swivels fail and no manifolds at all.. Maybe a swivel class action ? Or how about a rattle class action ? Ya know , those little washers breaking off has always been apain in the ass . Probably should sue for that as well.. Cmon man , give me a break.. Old 390 ford trucks back in the 70s would crack if you looked at em wrong. I dont recall any class actions going on then. Kyle   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 12:58 pm:    Hmmmm..... we had a '73 390, thing was one good truck... dad "sold" it to his brother, who never paid him for it... made me mad, because I had been wanting it for myself, lol.... -L   Kyle Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 01:04 pm:    Well it was a Ford Les so ofcourse it was good Kyle   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 01:05 pm:    LOL.... then why didn't that hold true for that damned Aspire? Oh, because it really was a Kia! heh heh...... -L   Kyle Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 01:08 pm:    EEEEK , Aspire ? It shoudnt be wearing the Oval Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 01:12 pm:    stepper motor class action   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 01:13 pm:    window ECU class action   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 01:13 pm:    rear main seal class action   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 01:13 pm:    shitty mileage class action   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 01:14 pm:    rotoflex class action   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 01:14 pm:    "no more class action" class action   Kyle Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 01:37 pm:    "There was a big case a bit before your time (early seventies as I recall) in which a document was leaked from Ford Motor Co. by an employee. Ford was aware of a dangerous defect and had calculated the cost of a recall vs. the cost of paying the one hundred or so families for the death of their family members. Paying for the hundred dead people was cheeper than the recall, so they decided not to fix the problem. I recite this only to point out you are covering for a huge company that seems to care most about the bottom line. To hell with the little guy. " Not before my time Mike as car companies still emplee such people. Shit happens , get over it.. I am wondering how many of these people with cracked manifolds are running shitty gas ? Including you !!!! Do you even think ??? At all ?? Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 02:01 pm:    Kyle, we all know that you are a Ford exec travelling incognito.   Kyle Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 02:06 pm:    Blue , you see everyone wants to father a "Cause". Its mind numbing that they dont think at all before they say , "Class action". I have said it a million times. If ya want a cause how about starting on stamping out stupidity ? Kyle   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 02:12 pm:    To quote a co-worker of mine: "People are stupid. Some people are stupider than others." -L   Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 02:19 pm:    Funny, my truck is nearing the 150K mark and has not had any of the problems you guys are relating. No cracked manifolds, no swivel problems (OK, one does leak a little), the Roto-Flex was replaced after lifting and 135K miles at least. My windows go up and down when I want them to. If you want something to complain about, how about that worthless little plastic cam behind the lock mechanism on the driver's door that breaks and you can't lock your truck! That's a lot of fun when it happens the day before you have to go to Detroit on business-and the plant I had to visit was DOWNTOWN! Most of us thrash the life out of our trucks and drive them far beyond what most would consider to be reasonable. Let us be pleased that they are as good as they are and are the best 4X4Xfar.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 02:32 pm:    no shit, Kyle. I just cringe when I hear "lawsuit" bounced around so casually, like "I'm going out to get the Sunday paper and then sue somebody. See you in an hour honey." If you've been wronged, and suing is your last resort, then maybe you gotta do it. But to sue because mechanical parts are wearing out with use? Come on.... If you're on top of the maintenance and inner workings of your truck, or your lawn mower, or your hot water heater, then you'll start to find out what the weak parts are. If you talk to other hot water heater enthusiasts, you'll all find that widget #46 tends to fail first. BFD. Fix it. Get on with life. and Leslie, "There is no such thing as a stupid question. Just stupid people."   Mike D1 Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 03:49 pm:    You guys are clearly the vanguards for free speech and intellectual thought. There IS no problem with manifolds on Disco Web because we don't talk about it or put out the wrong ideas about it. Wrong ideas on a public BB? You give me a break.   Kyle Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 03:53 pm:    Mike , we dont talk about it now because you stated your intentions earlier about what you wanted the info for. I posted my opinions on it quite clearly. Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 03:55 pm:    never said there was no problem with Disco's manifolds. Like lots of things on this truck, they basically suck. But I don't see any need to sue over it. LOL. When you find the perfect machine that will have no problems down the road, let me know.   John Lee Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 04:47 pm:    Mike, I must say that you are being a crybaby about all of this. Almost everything you have said about this matter shows that your entitlement mentality toward Discoweb. Your remarks are also snide and they're cheap shots against the Discoweb Team. Examples to follow. "The "later message" was removed by the Disco web police. Too controversial I guess. So much for free speech about a serious problem most of us are paying for out of our own pocket." You have no Free Speech right here. "Free Speech" and "censorship" are words that morons always throw around when they have nothing substantive to use. Discoweb is private forum and there is no state action here. You have no more of a Free Speech right on this board than you inside my home. Just because you don't pay to use Discoweb doesn't mean that it's a public forum. So and cry about your alleged Constitutional rights violations somewhere else. The Discoweb Team has said that they refuse to be your vehicle for a lawsuit against Land Rover and/or Ford. Instead of accepting that, you cry and bitch and moan about it and demand that you be permitted to use Discoweb as your vehicle for a lawsuit. Grow up. Accept their decision. Their decision is very reasonable. "Do what you want with "your" Disco Web, but I think you are way off on this one." Your snivelling little attitude is showing here. You concede that Discoweb belongs to the Discoweb Team, but you say with such an arrogance that is very revealing. Your attitude that Discoweb somehow belongs to you and to everyone else in the world shows. You may deny that this attitude exists, but I have seen it in your posts several times. I remember when you were trying to sell off slots to your Bill Burke event, you were posting you for sale signs in ever single section of Discoweb. When the Discoweb Team deleted your ads from various sections of the BBS, you complained the same way you are complaining now. I also recall that you have not supported Discoweb in any manner with respect to purchasing Discoweb videos or stickers. When the topic of your purchasing Discoweb stickers or a video came up on the boards, I distinctly recall that your excuse was that you intended to purchase the Discoweb items but that you were too busy to make the purchases. This is disingenuous at best for someone who obviously spends hours pouring over the Discoweb boards nearly every day. While it is certainly true that not everybody who has not purchased stickers or videos has an entitlement attitude like yours, I think your failure to support a resource that you use as often as you do, together with your other posts, clearly shows that you think Discoweb is your free playground and you can do whatever you please here. You and your friends in the Bay Area use Discoweb very often to organize your field trips. There is nothing wrong with this per se. Lots of people do it. But what I find fault with is your attitude that you somehow have a right to do this on Discoweb, just as you seem to believe that you have a right to use Discoweb as a lawsuit vehicle. I remember you posted previously to the effect how great it would be if the Bay Area guys had their own BBS so that they wouldn't have to use Discoweb to orgnanize your trips. That struck me as a little odd. Discoweb does not belong to you. Discoweb does not belong to other users of this BBS. Dicoweb belongs to the Discoweb Team. Accept it. That's reality. If you don't like it, that's fine. But don't be a sniveling little child about it and complain incessantly that the Discoweb Team's policy decisions conflict with yours. "It lowers the integrity of Disco Web in a big way. Your removing that thread is nothing more than censorship on behalf of the Ford Motor Company. A truly open forum would be a much better approach to controversial issues on a public site like this, I am quite disappointed." Once again, Discoweb is not a public site. The Discoweb Team can, and has, blocked lots of people from using and benefitting from Discoweb. What you frame as "censorship on behalf of the Ford Motor Company" is yet another cheap shot against the Discoweb Team. The Discoweb Team has all sorts of reasons for not wanting to be a vehicle for your lawsuit against Ford or Land Rover. That's their decision. They don't have to explain themselves to you. "I think higher than this of you and your partners." I doubt this is true. Rather, I see this is as some half-assed attempt by you to ingratiate yourself to the Discoweb Team so that they will agree to host your lawsuit-preparation discussions. Thus far, I have seen no respect by you to Discoweb or the Discoweb Team. I have, however, seen several cheap shots by you against the Discoweb Team. I think these cheap shots are more revealing about your attitude about Discoweb and the Discoweb Team than your empty words about holding the Discoweb Team in high regard. "Ford was aware of a dangerous defect and had calculated the cost of a recall vs. the cost of paying the one hundred or so families for the death of their family members. Paying for the hundred dead people was cheeper than the recall, so they decided not to fix the problem. I recite this only to point out you are covering for a huge company that seems to care most about the bottom line. To hell with the little guy." Again, don't you have anything but cheap shots. So by refusing to help you sue Ford, the Discoweb Team is "covering" for Ford? This is absurd. Think about it. "I challenge you to start thread asking how many people have had manifold cracks. No talk of lawyers . Just a clean thread asking something like; "How many of you have had cracked manifolds on a Disco I." I am sure it's way more than fan clutch or swivel seal problems. I think this is a chronic problem. Post it and lets see." Here's another idea. You create your own website with every bit of information about suing Ford and Land Rover and you and run it the whichever way you please. Then when others with the same entitlement mentality that you have start complaining about the way your website is run, you can deal with them as you wish. I can assure you that Ax, Ho, and Kyle will not be included with those complainers. "You guys are clearly the vanguards for free speech and intellectual thought. There IS no problem with manifolds on Disco Web because we don't talk about it or put out the wrong ideas about it. Wrong ideas on a public BB? You give me a break." Is everything out of your mouth either a disingenous compliment or a cheap shot? Discoweb is the vanguard of (not for) free speech and intellectual thought? LOL. You've complained about your thread being deleted but it's not not back up. You've tried challenging Kyle to play your lawsuit game. He refused. You've also tried emailing the Discoweb team to get your thread back up. They have refused. You've tried ingratiating yourself to the Discoweb Team with disingenuous flattery in a pathetic attempt to get what you want. The Discoweb Team has refused again. So what's next? Sarcasm? "There IS no problem with manifolds on Disco Web because we don't talk about it or put out the wrong ideas about it. Wrong ideas on a public BB? You give me a break." Your sarcasm isn't going to work either. Just accept that your thread is deleted. Just accept that Discoweb will not help you sue Ford or Land Rover or anyone else for that matter. Do the adult thing. Accept it. Just be grateful that the only thing the Discoweb Team is doing is deleting your thread. Were I in their shoes, I would be doing a lot more.   Mike Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 06:24 pm:    No shit it works, I used that quick weld stuff on my cracked manifold and the hole in my muffler and so far both have held now for 3 months   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 07:09 pm:    Well... being as cosmically connected to the Universe as I am, I just have to say my say here. As I am reading this thread.... My kid comes in with the mail. And in the mail is an invitation to ... Join a Class Action Law suit!!! But wait there is more! The suit is directed at Ford!! And it involves my Land Rover (albeit obliquely). Delicious irony, I think. So I am entitled to 36.25% of some legal gobblydegook. .... Now I have to actually read this letter. Ahh.... American Legal System. Capitalism at its best!   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 07:12 pm:    LOL the lawsuit comes to you....now that's service   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 07:23 pm:    Amen, Blue, amen! That is service!   Kyle Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 07:26 pm:    I say Forward that cash to Mike , he is in Need.. He states that he has 15K in that "Highly Modified" but he is bitching over a 100 dollar repair. Kyle Please Help Mike !!   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 07:41 pm:    I see the merits of your suggestion Kyle. We are long past the point where we ought to have established a fund for needy entitled rover owners. And one cannot ignore the profoundly synchronistic timing of our lawsuit letter entering literally into my hands as reading this thread. Does this pledge honor your suggestion Kyle? Any monies we gain from particpating in this lawsuit against Ford and (its minion off-spring companies), we will donate to the Mike Manifold Fund for Entitled Rover Owners to be soley administered by the DW Team. So when we get our check, I'll simply forward the amount to one of you alls. Does that suit you Kyle?   Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 07:44 pm:    "hot water heater enthusiasts" Damn man is there a website BBS for those people? Paul LOL at the insanity   Kyle Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 07:45 pm:    Perfect!!! Kyle   Mike D1 Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 09:01 pm:    John, I think you have your shorts way too bunched over this one. I will drop the issue, but I am disappointed and can only think it's not politically correct to mention "lawsuit" in these conservative times. I put out the idea of a suit if the manifold thing is huge. I think it could be. I disagree with you and your friends about suits. While the Corp. world decries them, they are the only way the average Joe gets heard. I just wanted to kick the idea around that is all, it wasn't even my thread that started this. The rest of your ranting is unfair. What you don't misunderstand you misrepresent. I have never hammered you for you style on this site which can include a bit of pontificating. That is what I like about this site, everyone's ideas are worth hearing. That is why I have been complaining about cutting out an idea, good or bad why not hear it? And yes I made the mistake of thinking I was supporting the same people from Disco Web when I spent several hundred with EE. I bought it because I needed it, but I bought it from you because I was (incorrectly) trying to support the same guys from D-web. You're right, I have been late in correcting that and buying two D-web videos and yes I spent too much this year and I'm tight! I could use a manifold fund! (-:   Kim S (Roverine) Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 10:45 pm:    Trying to drum up interest in class action lawsuits (particularly for something so stinking trivial) is to me, sickening. WHo TF do you think actually pays for all of this kind of nonsense? I'm sorry, but you have hit a real sore point for me here. Just who do you think you are? Why don't you find something truly worthy to do with your selfish, self righteous energy. Grow up. Kim   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 12:03 am:    Kim Want to know what the class action suit letter I got today was in reference to? Ford Safety Issue? Naw Ford Peeling Paint/Crappy workmanship Issue? Naw. Nope The suit is about paying a late fee *if* your payment is late. While it is a little wicked fun to knock frivolous suits, many suits do have merits, I know that, and perhaps this one does as well. But getting that letter, reading this thread struck me as particularly funny and full of entitlement. A suit to be compensated cause you paid a late fee cause you were late in making your payment?? Oh man. I wish I knew how to insert some funny icon here.... cause I was rolling with laughter!   Kim S (Roverine) Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 12:43 am:    Michael, For the love of Gawd!! If I had only known how profound this class action lawsuit was that you got your letter for ... I think we should all jump right on that one. (I will now make sure my payments are late ... How much do ya think I can get(?) ) I am now going to devote all of my time and energy (to hell with everything else) on this class action lawsuit. Hopefully, we can clog up our most wonderful judicial system so that the people and issues in REAL need get the attention they are entitled to (sarcasm here). I mean, how else are the judges, lawyers, going to get paid? I agree with you, there are suits that have true merit, that's just the problem ... the judicial system just gets abused by people who liken it to winning the lottery (or taking out their own emotional issues through it). Sue on, California, I'm so proud I was born here! There ya go Kim   Curtis N (Curtis) Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 11:32 am:    John, Damn man. Good post. It is good to see you back in your old form again Mike: I just had two manifold gaskets replaced at 30K. BFD. Who cares? They will probably go again at 60K. I will likely have to put on new tires and change the wiper blades in the interim. I might even change the oil. Curtis   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 11:41 am:    OK, let's see what you have to say. My shorts are in a wad. I rant and rave. I misunderstand and mispresent. I pontificate. And I'm unfair. Let's accept all of your conclusory accusations as true. Big deal. None of this changes the fact that you're a Discoweb freeloader who thinks he has a right to use Discoweb every which way he wants. And it doesn't change the fact that you have no qualms at all about bringing Discoweb into a lawsuit. And it doesn't change the fact that you're looking to be some kind of hero in this manifold class action lawsuit. And it doesn't change the fact that you're perfectly free to create your own website and dictate whatever policy you wish, but you still insist that Discoweb Team cave in to your own policy decisions about how Discoweb should be run. Regarding your statement that you bought from EE because you thought you were supporting Discoweb, this is yet another disingenuous statement from you. Remember Mike, you have ZERO credibility. You're the same guy who was posting under different names in an attempt to get some momentum against Kyle. Remember that? Something to effect of "Oh yeah, that MikeD1 can really drive his very non-stock truck and he knows what he's talking about so shut up Kyle". I'm too lazy to look at the archives but if you want me too, just let me know.   Ramsay (3toedsloth) Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 04:28 pm:    Can I get a class action together against Mike for staining my life, or do I have to fly solo on this one? It is amazes me that someone who claims to be so passionate about his vehicle is willing to sue the manufacturer of that very vehicle. If you've got beef with Land Rover, go ahead and take it to the top. Call the media, get a lawyer, and relentlessly hound Land Rover/Ford until you are heard. But for the love of God, do it by yourself. No one wants to see Land Rover pay out millions to replace mainfolds when that money could be used to investigate the reinstatement of the D-90 and maybe even the D-110 to the states. Get your priorities straight. Why does eveyone feel so compelled to sue these days? I could have made my fourtune when I totalled a Jeep and the Paramedics responding were negligent. Would that have brought my Jeep back? No (thank God). Would that have cleaned off my driving record? Nope. Would that have given me eternal life? Nah. Would it have made me look like blood sucking scum? I say it would. No one who drives a Rover is poor. Yes, you can buy older models for quite reasonable prices. However if you can afford to maintain the vehicle, I'm guessing you don't stand in line at the food bank. You don't need the money from a class action if you can afford to spend 15k on accessories. Jesus, sometimes I have to scrape together $20 to change the oil, but I still don't want any part of a class action suit. Bottom line: If you don't like fixing the manifold, sell the car. No one is forcing you to drive it. Don't be a bloodsucker. Damn, I was having a good day too. JR   Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 05:22 pm:    Let's go back to fixing our trucks and driving them where they probably don't belong! And as for the whole law suit thing, let's go out and sue everybody so that what little manufacturing that exists in this country can go away and that which we are left to buy is made elsewhere, and, we can pay exorbitant prices for what little is left to cover insurance costs for those who have the wherewithal to remain in business. As for the D-web team, thanx for providing the forum for some of us to waste time and bandwidth and maybe learn some, and share what we have learned. I am forever amazed at the instantaneous availability of scads of information that in the past would have required hours of library time to find, if it even existed in a format that could be found. $20 for a lifetime supply of stickers and to support the site is cheap in my book! Thanx guys! Peace, Paul   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 07:42 pm:    John Lee I know you to be an honest man, and well, since you actually left the door open here, I just have to ask: Are your shorts really in a wad? I mean, I did sit in a Defender once in my life while in LA, and those seats were harsh -- too harsh to be sitting on a wad. Unless, you are wearing boxers... Oh well. Had to ask.   Jake Hartley (Jake) Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 07:44 pm:    Mike: You and guys like you are the reason this country is going to shit. You must think that you are entitled to sue whomever you want whenever you feel "wronged". The POS lawyers who stir up cases like this are the only ones who get any bucks from CAS's. Insurance lawsuits and CAS's have driven all sorts of cool fun things from the radar screen in this country and I blame you for it. Your manifold broke? FIX IT! I don't give a shit if you have to do it every three days, it's not my concern. I have had Rover products all my adult life and have never had the problems sniveling little shits like you complain about. You want a low cost solution? Put a set of headers on your truck and forget about it, or get a good welder to plug the crack. And oh yeah, quit spraying water on your engine when it is hot...   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 08:00 pm:    Michael V: I think John's shorts are Hanes. Let's just leave it at that......   Mark Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 08:25 pm:    I am new to the board, but I think Mike has some points about people's ideas and having a more open BB. I think you are are missing this point. People would stick around more I think. I don't like the lawsuit idea, but it's just an idea. And why does John have his face in the butt of the team? The ultimate brown nose I'd say.   Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 08:37 pm:    John's nose is brown because he is Korean..... Now If I could just find the "hot water heater enthusiasts" site that Blue was talking about. Paul   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 08:38 pm:    Well I guess you dont get it either Mark. Do you realize what that will put in our lap if his "Cause" gos forward with Discoweb as the vehicle ? DO you have any idea the time we will have to invest into answering questions and supplying info ? This is NOT our job and we damn sure dont get payed enough to get into bullshit like that simply because the guy wants to father a cause..... he is completely free to builda site using his funds and makes what ever he likes out of it.... I make that statement simply because no one thinks about it. My personal feelings are the above mixed with a stiff dose of being sick to death os law suit happy bastards with some sort of remorse over a product they own. Its your choice to buy it , nobody twisted your arm. Since the beginning of time there has been good and bad products. AS well as good products with bad aspects. Thats just fucking life!!!! How about if you get sued everytime you do something stupid and it affects those around you? Dumb ass move in traffic ? Too much noise at home , christ the list gos on forever and its sickening. Live with your choices and dont expect someone to come and clean up your messes for you. Now I am not saying that you dont have an issue if you drive off the lot and the damn car door wont stay shut , or the damn thing burns to the ground because of a proven fault. I am saying use some damn judgement.... thats all... Kyle   Jay Hobbs (Jayxd) Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 09:33 pm:    Anyone who thinks a class action lawsuit is a good idea has lost it! All it will do is cost LR a ton of money and they will pass that along to new vehicle costs or it will come from money allocated for manufacturing/design upgrade (i.e. the D-90 coming back to US shores) or whatever. Bad, Bad, Bad!!! Also, this is a privately owned BB so if those who own it and run it want to restrict what we talk about and limit their possible exposure they have that right, plain and simple!   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 09:46 pm:    Well you could have talked about manifolds till the cows came home. But the minute Mike put a motive behind it that was the end... Kyle   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 10:33 pm:    Mark I suppose I should take you at your word: Clearly, after reading all these posts -- both the joking and the serious you cannot put one and two together. For you to make your post at that point in the thread above, tells me that you cannot, indeed, are incapable of, abstracting the ethcial, legal, and moral issues associated with either the concept of private ownership or the ramifications of a lawsuit. Ok, I think to myself -- the man is an idiot. No crime in that. Not ignorant, mind you, just an idiot. Thus, one ought to be kind to idiots cause it is not their fault they are in that kind of way. Or, if you cannot be kind (cause sometimes their idiocy is taxing), then show good manners and ignore them. But you .. You open your post with the comment that you are new to the board, then close your post with a rather nasty insult to John. Well, shit now. That changes everything. Because for the most part, idiots are neither mean-spirited nor self-righteous. So you have to ask yourself: Was it worth it? You come on to a board and insult someone you do not know -- and I would imagine, you *just* have to be asking yourself: Was it worth it? Did I really score _any_ points? Cause I'll tell up front, you sure did not shine in the intellect department -- a rather feeble light glows there I say. So you did not win any friends by the depth of your logic; worse, you alienated many people here who have had numerous experiences with John and know the kind of man he is. Two strikes so far. Was it worth it Mark?   Ron Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 10:48 pm:    I can take any discovery series I and tell you with better than 50% chance that it has or had a fairly long list of problems. Fan cuts out on 4 Cross seals leak (aka rear main) Intake leak Valve issues etc, etc, etc. Exhaust manifold cracks are not one of them. Ron   Mike B. Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 11:03 pm:    Kyle: I agree with all of your points. I'm definately not into a lawsuit and agree that the Discoweb needs to stay clear of any lawsuits. However, I've had 2 exhaust manifolds crack, another friend has had two go bad, and a third friend had one go bad. Any chance that we could go for a simple poll on the exhaust manifold issue without providing fuel for any lawsuits? Maybe someone has an aftermarket set that will hold up better. Respectfully, Mike B. [email protected] P.S. - I was out this weekend, so I guess that I missed the original thread concerning the lawsuit.   Mike D1 Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 11:36 pm:    Disco web team, I respect your decision on this issue. It's your site. Mike B., I think that's a great idea. Kyle, can we see if this is a big problem? I had to replace both of my maifolds in the field, now a new one is going again. John Lee, I threw out an idea and it was summarily cut from the site. Not foul language, not personal attacks, just an idea. It seems most on this thread think it is a bad idea, so if it was left on the thread it would have been shot down on it's own. This is my point you overlook. Your turning this idea into "bringing Discoweb into a lawsuit" is pure nonsense. I have said in the past and will say again all in all Discoweb is a great thing and it's participants have helped me a lot. Making a suggestion or asking the team to reconsider something is not an overall criticism. As far as being a freeloader this is a not for profit site and my past business with you was due to the D-web connection, like it or not. I will not make that mistake again. I have started many threads that have gone well above the five or ten hits the average thread gets. I see this as a contribution, and I don't care if you don't. I also offered to pay a voluntary fee after the site went down last time but the team didn't want handouts, at least I offered. From what I remember of your posting you just jump in on other peoples threads with your "expert" advice rather than starting any of your own ideas. I did complain about cutting an idea, not trying to piss anyone off but I would like to see this BB a place for ideas good or bad with less personal insults and nasty jabs. It's not going to happen with the kind of personal assaults that are encouraged here and so freely offered by you. In terms of zero credibility for goofing with Kyle, get a life. Lots of people goof with Kyle. He fights his own fights just fine with out your attempt to "ingratiate yourself" with the team as you have above. As far as your personal attacks on this issue that had nothing to do with you (as usual), I am disappointed but not surprised. Last year you criticized my finding (my idea and research) a long travel Bilstein that worked with my 3" lift, again another person's idea you offered your criticism on. I believe this shock is now offered by the guy I buy all my stuff from and I have not had problems. You were quite nice on the phone making a sale to me. Then you got nasty in that same phone conversation about a certain vender that is well known on this site (I will not stoop to your level and name names) and said "his stuff is junk and he doesn't know much, he just copied other people's ideas" (you seem to be the king of jumping on the ideas of others). You said this knowing full well my truck was equipped with most of his products. When I asked what was wrong with his stuff, you stumbled and said it was "over built." Great answer from the original wana be with only spring retainers to sell (they work great by the way, they must have been Ho's idea). Based on this unnecessary cheap shot at the vender I use and me for that matter, you seem to be a very jealous person with not much going compounded by a mean streak. I heard from someone in the So. Cal. Rover Club that you were a bit of a know-it-all, who's idea of wheeling was to go out and shoot up the place with an assault rifle (not my words). You're a real credit to our sport John. I banter with Kyle at times and he can be a crude guy when he wants to be, but he is real. What you see is what you get. He will always have a few enemies because of his style (and so will I) but he will always have real friends because he is real. I can disagree with him and still respect him. You strike me as two faced with a chip on your shoulder. Not much more.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 01:37 am:    mike, i think you still don't understand why we pulled the tread earlier... and i think there's a lot of other things you still dont' understand. but hey, you do what you gotta do.   Curtis N (Curtis) Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 01:40 am:    Damn Mike, You really put some thought into that. Maybe it would be more appropriate in a personal email to John. I really do not give a shit what you think about John on a personal level. He has been nothing but a gentleman and friend to me so I cannot share in your gripes. Furthermore: he is right. You have zero credibility. Anyone who read your bullshit in the sand ladders post knows this. You posted under various names trying to be someone you are not. I am actually amazed that the DWeb team still lets you hang out after that shennanigan. I would have banned your ass. So you go and post about some BS CA lawsuit that not only gets deleted, BUT you come back and try to start the same shit again in this thread. Dude...NO MEANS NO!. You have garnered no support in your cause except from poor Mark who is new and not privy to your prior actions. I would say that the lawsuit is a bad idea on many fronts. I do want to add that you should never buy a Rover again (and likely should sell yours). If you cannot deal with the little quirks that are so well known to Rovers then you have no business playing with them. Might I suggest an Acura NSX or something? I hope I never wheel in the bush with you. You just don't have the little it takes. Curtis   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 01:13 pm:    "I threw out an idea and it was summarily cut from the site. Not foul language, not personal attacks, just an idea." No, you didn't just "thr[o]w out an idea". You stated you were consult an attorney on the issue for a possible class action against Land Rover. That's what triggered the deletion of that thread. "It seems most on this thread think it is a bad idea, so if it was left on the thread it would have been shot down on it's own. This is my point you overlook. Your turning this idea into "bringing Discoweb into a lawsuit" is pure nonsense." You're either a fool or so genuinely dishonest that you can't see reality. Do you think Ho, Ax, and Kyle give a rat's ass if you sue Land Rover? All they want is not to be connected with such lawsuit in any manner. That's why they deleted your attempt to drum up interest in a class action on the Discoweb boards. As Kyle said, "you could have talked about manifolds till the cows came home. But the minute Mike put a motive behind it that was the end..." And once again you completely ignore the fact you're perfectly free to make up your own website or get some else to host your class action discussion. "[email protected]" seems to think this is a good idea, so perhaps you two Mikes can get together and make it happen. That way you guys can have your class action and Discoweb is not involved in any fashion. That would be too simple though, wouldn't it? "Making a suggestion or asking the team to reconsider something is not an overall criticism." No, it is not. But being a crybaby about it is annoying. And being sarcastic the Discoweb Team's decision is annoying. And expecting others to host the discussions for your personal gain when they don't want to be involved is annoying. You're just an annoying guy. "As far as being a freeloader this is a not for profit site and my past business with you was due to the D-web connection, like it or not. I will not make that mistake again." No, Discoweb is not a for-profit site. So what? Does that mean that obviates the need to support Discoweb? PBS is a not-for-profit network, but it needs the support of its viewers and members. Are you the same way with PBS as you are with Discoweb? First you said that you wanted to support Discoweb but that you were too busy to take the two minutes it takes to fill out the online ordering form. Then you said that you were supporting Discoweb by purchasing from EE. And now your position changes once again. Now you claim that Discoweb needs no support because it is a not-for-profit organization. Which is it? Were you lying then or are you lying now? And you say you won't shop at EE any longer. Do you think I care about business from guys like you? I don't. If I did, I would have stayed quiet on this issue and been the brown-nose that you and Mark accuse me of being. In the past, Ho and I have turned away customers whom we did not like personally. Had we known about you what we know now, we would have turned you away as well when you tried to order. Ho and I want to be successful but not by dealing with people like you. Is that "real" enough for you? "I have started many threads that have gone well above the five or ten hits the average thread gets. I see this as a contribution, and I don't care if you don't." Yeah, I remember some of your brilliant contributions to the Discoweb boards. One of my favorites is your thread about which music to listen to on really hard trails. This one is briliant. If you have ever been on really hard trails, you would know that listening to music is the last thing one should do. "I also offered to pay a voluntary fee after the site went down last time but the team didn't want handouts, at least I offered." Yes, the Discoweb Team doesn't want handouts. If you wanted to support Discoweb, you tried to do it the wrong way. Also, I know for a fact that there were some real deal people who didn't OFFER to send donations. Rather, they just sent in their donations. Were you one of these people? I very much doubt it. "You were quite nice on the phone making a sale to me. Then you got nasty in that same phone conversation about a certain vender that is well known on this site (I will not stoop to your level and name names) and said "his stuff is junk and he doesn't know much, he just copied other people's ideas" (you seem to be the king of jumping on the ideas of others). You said this knowing full well my truck was equipped with most of his products. When I asked what was wrong with his stuff, you stumbled and said it was "over built." Great answer from the original wana be with only spring retainers to sell (they work great by the way, they must have been Ho's idea)." You're such a cheesedick. You fucking ASKED me for my opinion and I gave you my honest opinion. If you didn't want to hear my opinion, don't ask for it. I see customers with bad stuff on their trucks all the time but don't go around antagonizing them by criticizing the stuff on their trucks. Think about it. Does any vendor do this? It's not good for customer relations and it's not good business. But if customers ask me for my opinion on something on their truck, I give them my honest opinion. Now you're complaining because you don't like what I said? "Based on this unnecessary cheap shot at the vender I use and me for that matter, you seem to be a very jealous person with not much going compounded by a mean streak.... You strike me as two faced with a chip on your shoulder. Not much more." Yeah, that means a lot coming from a bastion of credibility and person of high moral character such as yourself. So I'm jealous. I don't have much going on. I have a mean streak. I'm two-faced. Let's not forget that my shorts are in a wad. I also rant and rave. I misunderstand and mispresent. I pontificate. I'm unfair. I'm also officious. I'm ingratiating. And I'm a gun nut. Still, none of this changes the fact that I'm not the one calling you on the telephone, nearly in tears, and asking you to accept my apology. I'm also not the one asking Ho to delete my post.   Peter Carey (Pcarey) Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 02:12 pm:    It's pretty simple Mike: #1 http://www.register.com drop $70 for www.iwannasuelandrover.com it's available #2 sign up for the webhosting option not sure what it cost though #3 go to http://www.discusware.com/discus/index.php Drop $150 on the same software that runs Dweb's discussions. You've now spent maybe $300 and can say and discuss and ban and allow anything/one you want. Total freedom. If you walked in my privately owned house and started telling people to call my phone number to complain and see if you could get a lawsuit going from my house, I'd probably tell you to shut up and get the hell out as well. If you did it in your own house, well, I couldn't care less. pwc   Curtis N (Curtis) Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 02:28 pm:    John spake: "Still, none of this changes the fact that I'm not the one calling you on the telephone, nearly in tears, and asking you to accept my apology. I'm also not the one asking Ho to delete my post." Baaahahahaha! ROTFLMAO! Mike, you are hereby sentenced to four days back under the big ass rock from which you crawled out. You poor guy. This must be a bad week for you Curtis   Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 03:39 pm:    "I had to replace both of my manifolds in the field, now a new one is going again." Who carries two spare manifolds on the trail with them? If my manifold was bad, I would change it before I hit the trail. If it went on the trail, I would drive home and fix it in my driveway. It's not like it is going to instantly self destruct, anyway. "Objection, pure speculation!" "Goes to show credibility, Your Honor." "Overruled."   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 05:37 pm:    BTW: Not tryng to drum up any business here, but: "So I'm jealous. I don't have much going on. I have a mean streak. I'm two-faced. Let's not forget that my shorts are in a wad. I also rant and rave. I misunderstand and mispresent. I pontificate. I'm unfair. I'm also officious. I'm ingratiating. And I'm a gun nut." Any time you want to talk about any of these issues John in the privacy of my office, (I am particularly concerned about your shorts being in a wad) I am offering a psych-special this week. And if you mention "I post at DW" to the receptionist, I will take 10% off your intake session and donate 5% to DW. It is the least I can do.   Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 05:41 pm:    Damn, what a nice gesture. If only more people would open their doors like that. Paul LOL   Kim S (Roverine) Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 05:57 pm:    You know Mike, you've gone way overboard this time. You just don't know when to quit. It strikes me there is a lot you don't know. I would pity you, but I just can't. And "Mark": (I definitely smell a strong fish odor here) At first I thought you were just an imbecile as well, but I think Michael V. summed up your stupid ass post very elequently: "But you .. You open your post with the comment that you are new to the board, then close your post with a rather nasty insult to John. Well, shit now. That changes everything. Because for the most part, idiots are neither mean-spirited nor self-righteous." Kim   Kim S (Roverine) Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 06:06 pm:    LOL, I just read your most recent post, Michael. That is darn decent of you. I'm obviously a bit emotional myself, as I was very concerned about John's wadded up shorts as well. Kim   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 06:20 pm:    That is very kind of you Doc, but I think MikeD1 is in need your counseling expertise more than I. MikeD1 seems to be suffering from an acute case of Pernicious Truthophobia and a classic case of Chickenshititis. Those afflictions seem to be affecting his health too. You should have heard his voice on the telephone this morning. He sounded very "non-stock" and not at all like his "decked out" web persona.   Chris (C_M_Sharpe) Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 06:20 pm:    Guys, (& gals) To quote the King, Rodney not Elvis or MLK, �Can�t we all get along?� Perhaps we could stop with the personal attacks? I�ve met Mike, he's a decent guy and has always been willing to offer good advice on the trail and has organized a few trips for us over in Norcal. Kyle, you put up with my sophomoric questions on the web, that�s almost good enough for Sainthood in my book! John, all I know about you is that you were kind enough to put up with a long serious of questions about OME products. (Thanks, and when my wedding is over, I promise EE will get my business!). The lawsuit idea was a bit silly, and the Discoweb is perfectly within its rights to choose to delete the thread. I welcome talking about manifold crackings because it�s helpful for us users, but can we start with a fresh slate? Its getting ugly, and while it may seem amusing to some of you, its not enjoyable when you know some of the parties. IMHO, this is a great site and quite frankly, indispensable for a disco owner. Lets not turn it into a pissing contest, regardless of the facts. I think we are all clear on their position of soliciting lawsuits within the discoweb. Lets respect it and move on. Just my 2 cents and no disrespect meant (yes, I am trying not to become a target!). Oh, yes, I bought a video and y�all will have to simply trust me on the future EE purchases!   Michael Villanueva (Michael) Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 07:11 pm:    "That is very kind of you Doc, but I think MikeD1 is in need your counseling expertise more than I." Maybe. But you? You I genuinely like. Hence the discount.   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 07:32 pm:    Chris , I hear you and I dont really wanna beat the guy into the ground. But god damn , ya gotta admit that he wouldnt just take the deal for what it was and move on..... He just kept talking shit and eventually got hammered for it. Now ya cant blame these guys if Mike came to School ill prepared now can ya ? Kyle   Chris (C_M_Sharpe) Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 07:50 pm:    Kyle, Whats the line? "Never show up to a gunfight with a knife"? Yeah, I here you, but 1 vs 4(or whatever) never goes well anyway. Anyways, thanks for listening. Nice new web site by the way. You should sell the brush guard as well as the bumber btw... Cheers, Chris