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Author Message   Lawrence Tilly (L_Tilly) Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 05:24 pm:    I don't want to start another holy war, I'm just having trouble finding an archived thread. I have tried the Keyword with a few variations but it is not coming up. I hope someone here might be able to get me pointed at it. I think it came up late fall / early winter of last year. It was very full of "opinions" (to put it mildly ) but did a good job of explaining the differences between worm vs planetary winches, specific brand info, and the supporters of each voiced their pros / cons. I wanted to add some of that info to my personal reference for when the time comes to make that decision myself. As always, thanks for the info DWeb!! Lawrence [email protected] 96 Disco "Beowulf" NH, USA   Kyle Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 05:29 pm:    I think that thread may have been killed when we did that server swap. No harm in getting another one going.. Let it fly... Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 05:44 pm:    I've been doing some winch research, and I'm sold on electric worm gear. Ramsey RE 10 or 12k to be specific.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 05:51 pm:    oh, did I mention that everything else sucks?   Lawrence Tilly (L_Tilly) Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 05:59 pm:    Great...less than 30 minutes old and Kyle and Blue are already in. Here goes the jihad. Hell, that's what made the other thread so damn informative I guess. Some people were pulling out all the stops to get a leg up. I think there was even a list of tow recovery companies that use brand x vs. brand y. As Kyle said...Let it fly! So... What do people like better: Worm or Planetary, and why???? Reliability, maintenance, recovery strength, continuous use...all the good stuff! Lawrence [email protected] 96 Disco "Beowulf" NH, USA   Erik G. Burrows (Erik) Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 07:14 pm:    I'm very interested in this discussion as well. It seems to me that the 'plasma' or non-metal rope is so much more safe that I don't see why anyone would buy a winch that couldn't use it. Which, I read previously is almost every non-worm winch. Is that correct? Because of the heat generated by braking?   M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 07:18 pm:    get a hydralic winch like those found on the front of most humvees. you may have to alter your power steering pump to get the line feed that most of these smoker owning guys like to see but as long as you dont stall the engine you can winch all day. hehehehe.just couldnt help myself on that! my other opinion is to lay the extra cash down and buy a big ace winch m12 or m15, kinda of the "go large or go home" train of thought. regardless any type of winch you buy has its advantages and its weaknesses, what you buy will depend upon your checkbook, they all work some just a bit better than others. imho, mike "i never get stuck" w   Kyle Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 07:40 pm:    Oh ,my.... There is but one choice.... Kyle   Erik G. Burrows (Erik) Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 07:50 pm:    Yes? What 'one' choice is that?   M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 07:58 pm:    i might add i wouldnt care if it was a pair of groundhogs spinning in a squirrel cage as long as it works when i needed it. mike w   Ron Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 08:00 pm:    If it does not have a driveshaft it is not a real winch. Ron   Kyle Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 08:06 pm:    Ron , in the last thread you were saying how good that Husky was. Well , CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW???? Does anyone else remember how Ron was praising the Husky ? Ron , my RE will still be kikcing when all you shit is broke... Kyle   Kyle Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 08:16 pm:    Thats the thing Mike , getting something that works every single time you need it , no matter what it is you need it for... Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 08:18 pm:    LOL I will say that having worm gear to hold load and back down load rather than relying on a drum brake is a big difference.   Kyle Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 08:22 pm:    You dont trust that little spring in the planetary blue ? Kyle   Ron Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 08:31 pm:    Husky was about 4 of these threads back. Now I am convinced if it does not have a driveshaft it sucks. Ron   Kyle Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 08:36 pm:    Well if its not running anything with a drive shaft sucks as well..... Kyle   \Mike... (Mpeters) Posted on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 02:44 pm:    And if it's not running, the whole winching thing may have just dropped down a notch on the list of priorities... unless, of course, you are planning to winch it all the way back to the garage... /mp   Kyle Posted on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 08:35 pm:    Well , if you turn it over and need to right it ? If you are in the water and need to get out ? Man , there are about nine million scenarios where the truck could cut off in a bad situation and leave you needing to move the bastard before you can do what you need to do to get out. Options man , its all about options... Kyle   Moe (Moe) Posted on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 11:14 pm:    I'll give my vote to the worm drive electric REs, even though on a couple of occasions I had issues with the RE clutch not engaging in the field--a result of having let some surfaces corrode over the winter. Overall, it has been a great winch.   Lawrence Tilly (L_Tilly) Posted on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 08:55 am:    Kyle's last point is the main reason I'm not seriously considering a hydraulic. Being in a situation where you are dependent on your winch to get you out is bad enough. Now you're in a situation where you are depending on your engine running so your winch can get you out? I try to keep the risk layers thin. Did I understand earlier that a worm can run load in reverse to help ease you down something, but a planetary cannot? Wow. That's could be a major point right there. Lawrence [email protected] 96 Disco "Beowulf" NH, USA   Kyle Posted on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 09:06 am:    Lawrence , the planetary does have a brake and does have load holding in reverse. HOWEVER , if you saw what the "Brake" consists of you would have a good chuckle. Its two springs that fit tightly into the drum that unwind ,and are forced out into the drum when there is no input from the motor. Thats your "Brake" , a little spring... On the worm geared winch the worm gear must be powered for the drum to move once the clutch is engaged. Its virtually impossible for the large gear to turn the worm gear backwards due to the way the large gear is cut. So the Worm winch is better at braking and it does it with fewer parts. Now I know some will chime in and start flapping about you not being able to pull much with the engine off. I did a little pull for Bill B last week end with the engine off. Bill , what were your impressions on that.. Kyle   nadim Posted on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 01:58 pm:    Adding fuel to the fire... 1st off, let me say that the planetary's brakes are useless. That thing heats up, breaks, or melts for no use, and it is very dangerous. Would any of you like to switch to drum brakes? Didn't thik so. 2nd, those RE are nice, most recovery trucks here in the Middle East use them, and they do not oly recover cars/SUVs/4x4s. Saw one hauling in a snow packer (chain driven) that skid off the road. I'll go for the RE12 if this last winch did not exist: The Warn 8274 (8274-50 preferably) This sucker has an unbreakable braking system (no pun intended). Its engine is high mounted, it has a hell of a load of cable, its spur gear driven, making it fast and strong, and it is oil lubricated, therefore changing oil for maintenance is very easy. 3 "problems" (if you want to consider them as sch): 1. Too heavy (solution=HD suspension) 2. Only 8000lbs available (Warn, ma   Kyle Posted on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 04:26 pm:    Well Nadim , "Its got a hell of a load of cable". Yes , it does , but I am thinking its rated at 8K on its first wrap. How many freaking wraps of that little cable are on that bastard ? I have only ever really been around one of them and it was a new one on a F-350 some years ago. I was not impressed with it... Kyle   niall forbes (Forbesn) Posted on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 05:31 pm:    I would like to hear from someone who has stalled an 8274. They are the workhorse of the electric winch world. Those things pull like crazy. On my IIa, I had a Belleview/Land Rover winch which was the predecessor to the 8274 (Warn bought Belleview and continued to develope the winch). I once had to pull my friend's 110 out of a deep mud hole. Long story short, when tying my 88 off to a friend's 109 didn't work, I had to tie off to a big tree in order to move the 110 rather than just drag the 88 and 109 along the trail. The winch didn't even start to bog down. Their only disadvantage is their size/shape. Fine for a Defender or Series Rover but a little harder to mount nicely with a Disco.   Kyle Posted on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 05:56 pm:    You just did hear from someone that stalled the 8274. Hence the "I was not impressed with it" Kyle   niall forbes (Forbesn) Posted on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 06:11 pm:    What was the situation?   Kyle Posted on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 06:20 pm:    Mud , stuck , uphill..... Had to snatch block it..... I think they are probably pretty good on a light vehicle as they are built pretty durable. But they just dont have the kinda power I like... Kyle   niall forbes (Forbesn) Posted on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 08:05 pm:    Well, that must have been one BIG F350 stuck in some DEEP mud. I never snatched mine and it never bogged, even on heavy pulls. Al Richer had his solenoid stick on and the winch simply broke his 10,000lb rated hook rather than slow down pulling.   nadim Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 07:21 am:    Kyle, My previous message was not complete for some odd reason (are you playing with the non-RE deamons?) Anyways, I was anout to write "Warn, may I suggest a 10,000lbs version of the 8274-50?" As far as cable is concerned, it is not a problem, a snatch-block can help/do the trick, and sometimes, you DO need that extra cable. An F-350 with an 8000lbs winch is like strapping the 6000lbs planetary to our Discos with my kit in it...not a smart thing. The weird size/weight/mounting system is what is scaring people, but I have seen them work great, and never miss a beat. That is what I will go for I think. Did you see that braking system...wow..."less is more"   muskyman Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 10:58 am:    i used to stall then smoke motors in my 8274 all the time...thats includding running 36 volt western snowplow salt spreader motors. the bottom line is hydraulic...my 2 speed MM's with load holding valve will wind in line faster then any electric. it will pull all day long day in and day out. it has never failed to work even under water for hours at a time winching truck after truck after truck threw window deep mud. I have also spent a week straight clearing a hundred huge old oak trees from our property after a tornado. pulling huge log after log 10 hours a day and never had 1 problem with the winch...show me an electric that could go an hour pulling 10000lb logs out of the woods . electric=toy hydraulic=tool combined with a highlift for the oh so rare chance that the truck stalls? there in no better system out there. when the us military tested the MM for use on the humvees they ended up saying that the electric unit it replaced had a duty cycle of less the 20% the MM was rated at 100% duty cycle. come on guys get real go hydraulic Ron, drivshaft winches suck when you are alone! try to winch up a long off camber hill alone with a driveshaft winch...you will see what bull shit a PTO winch becomes. and as far as breaking system...FLUID!...for god sake would you trust mechanical brakes on your car? then again breaking system is a good way to sum up electric winches...because they sure are a system that is always breaking   Kyle Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 11:02 am:    Well here we go again.... lol And you need to be running for that Toy to work as well... Kyle   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 11:19 am:    Fluid? Don't Rovers leak? -L   muskyman Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 11:27 am:    i once hit a deep hole in a creek in canada dunked the scout over the snorkle. it took 3 hours to hand winch the truck out using the winch cable to a high lift. i had to keep diving under water to keep turning the cable in as we pulled the truck out. move it 2 feet with the high lift pull in 2 feet of cable reset and repeat..again and again and again. but we got it out, flushed out the air intake started it and pulled the other 2 non winch equiped trucks across with there windows rolled up and the air intakes plugged with t-shirts dont ever believe someone who says "Its a short cut!" none the less, I really doubt that a electric would have run under water for the 50 or so feet we ended up having to go to get the truck out, and the second truck I pulled across had 6 55gallon drums full of Bear bait in the back and theres no way that any electric I'v seen could have pulled it across . yes my mm's are toys...just really reliable ones.   Gregory W. Davis (Gregdavis) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 11:38 am:    Well, I have the 8274-50 and so far it has served me well. Love the speed and 150 ft. of cable. I was pulling a stump for my father-in-law. The winch slowed down a little, then it started pulling my DII across the ground. It was in park and it was dragging it. I finally gave up and left the stump in place. I haven't used my winch much, but when I have, it's performed well. And since it's a worm gear, I can use the synthetic line without fear of melting if I ever have to lower myself down an incline. Not that I would, but I could.   Lawrence Tilly (L_Tilly) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 11:51 am:    Musky, So you were able to run your rig during the hand-winching process in order to keep your winch line tight? Why couldn't you use the winch itself to help with the recovery? -Lawrence   Kyle Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 12:12 pm:    150' of 5/16 cable eh Greg... Kyle   Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 12:24 pm:    Nadim: Aren't those recovery truck REs hydraulic? I'm not sure what's involved, but I'd love to have a hydraulic RE on my Disco. For now the MM works just fine. Mike   Kyle Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 12:25 pm:    Yes Tow truck have the Hydraulic version which is the same winch with the Hydraulic motor in place of the electric one.. Kyle   Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 12:33 pm:    Kyle: Do you know if the maxidrive PTO system has the flow and psi requirements for the RE motor? The MM needs about 1500psi, not sure about the Ramsey. I'm just thinking long-term, but a hydraulic motor powering a tougher winch would be the way to go.   Gregory W. Davis (Gregdavis) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 12:35 pm:    Hey, size doesn't matter. It's what you do with it that counts. At least thast's what I keep tellin' my wife. hehe   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 12:36 pm:    mike, that idea scares me. that would be a good "bumper-yanker-winch". LOL   Kyle Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 12:53 pm:    As Ho states Mike , what you end up with is a little scary. You will end up with 7/16 cable as a minimum and you get into the rhealm of tearing shit apart if you arent carefull... You could limit its power with the valve I suppose. THe Maxidrive pump would give you more then enough to power it. Remember that it takes less to do more with a worm... Greg ? No comment... Kyle   Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 01:02 pm:    You can run into the same situation with the MM. They offer different size (volume) hydraulic motors. You can then end up with a faster motor that keeps the pull down so you don't have to go up to a higher gauge cable. Again, I don't know if that's possible with the RE.   Michel Findlay (Michel) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 02:38 pm:    With the maxidrive pump you have to get a flow/pressure control valve. You can then give the specific psi requirements (up to 3000) and flow (up to 16GPM) the winch you want needs. I've got the MM setup (with the higher spec valve) at 1500 PSI and 8GPM. The size of the moter has nothing to do with the speed of the winching, the bigger motor gives you more pulling power for the same PSI. Michel   Dan Katzenberger (Dkatzen) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 02:48 pm:    Speaking of the Maxi-Drive PTO hydraulic pump. Do any of you have these, or know where I can buy one? I've e-mailed Maxi-Drive and GBR, but haven't had any luck finding out where I can buy one and for how much. I think hydraulic is the way to go, but with a dedicated hydraulic pump, not with the steering pump. If I'm ever careless enough to drown or flip my Disco so the engine won't run, then I will accept righting it with a Hi-Lift as retrobution for my carelessness. Besides, after I get out of the ditch, I want to have enough battery left to be able to start up again. I haven't drowned or flipped a vehicle yet, so maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones. I like this thread...I'm sorry I missed it the first time around. Thanks, Dan Katzenberger 2001 Disco II SE7 Minneapolis, MN USA   Michel Findlay (Michel) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 02:52 pm:    Got mine from Great bassin rover Michel   Lawrence Tilly (L_Tilly) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 02:56 pm:    Don't worry about missing the last one, Dan. This one looks really darn familiar. Lawrence [email protected] 96 Disco "Beowulf" NH, USA   Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 03:16 pm:    Michel, Mind you I have no direct experience with this, but I have discussed this at length with MM. I was looking at installing an 1850psi pump with a relief valve after the winch to replace the standard pump. The net effect would be to increase the pull of the winch to about 12-13K#. Therefore 4X4 winches in the UK recommended going to a smaller hydraulic motor. When I say smaller, I mean the volume of the motor. To reduce the amount of pull to be about 9500#, they recommended going from about a 250cc motor to about 200cc to avoid the possiblity of snapping a cable. I was told that the winch would be slightly faster as a result. If you think about it logically, at the same flow rate, a smaller motor will turn faster. I was hoping to have some actual experience, but 4x4 winches never shipped the ps pump, and I've been still using the stock pump.   Gregory W. Davis (Gregdavis) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 03:25 pm:    Nope Kyle. No more comments from me. I've said my part. Besides, all this hydraulic talk has got me scratching my worm, er, I mean head.   Bill Bettridge (Billb) Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 03:37 pm:    Geez - I had to actually work today and look at what I miss- LOL Yep - I'm converted - ordered the RE12K last week and sold the Warn M12K to Garrett (still a good winch - but decided I wanted "more" - and one that would fit in Kyles bumper ) Bill   Kyle Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 04:31 pm:    Bill currently has a really fine specimen of a bumper..... Kyle   muskyman Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 04:55 pm:    L Tilly, my truck was not running I was just reaching in and turning the winch by hand until the cable was tight against the new set on the high lift then we would jack it 2 feet and release , back off the high lift to the top and i would reach in and take up the slack again. what a pain...but they dont send tow trucks 50mi off the highway in canada. greg davis, the 5/16 wire rope you have whats the true break strength?...5/16 aircraft cable breaks under 10000 lbs every time . even a 8000 lb winch can generate that in certain recovery situations with a 5000lb truck connected to it. 3/8 is a better way to go IMHO. at 14700 lbs to snap 3/8 it will give you a better safty margin. I used to have a ramsey 20/k hydraulic I got off the back of a garbage truck. run with a PTO at 2700psi it pulled anything I hooked it to.but it weighed 250lbs plus the 50 or so that the PTO weighed.this was on a blazer with 12" of lift and 40" tires and for the mud it saw was perfect and it blew away the 8274 it replaced. my point is you need to draw a line on a disco. My MM weighs like 70lbs makes 10500 on the first wrap and is pretty small. It just seams to make more sence then putting a huge as tow truck winch on a disco.   Ron Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 09:41 pm:    Bill B you sell your bumper yet? Ron   LR Max Posted on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 10:37 pm:    Well, here I come . I own a Warn M12K on the front of my landy. It has served me well so far, on the trail and anything else I can figure out to use it on. I will make one comment that I do believe that anyone who gets an electric winch needs to have a second battery. I found that out one night in the middle of Uhwarrie and it wasn't very fun. My M12K doesn't generate a lot of heat, so I can continually pull for long periods of time without worrying about it smoking. Now that I think of it, it all depends on your application of your rover that should dictate what winch you get. Personally, I wanted a no nonsense winch (the M12K is no nonsense enought for me, a M8000 is a nonsense for that one time you need it) and it had to be electric b/c my Series 3 doesn't have power steering. I also run a ARB bull bar, and the winch had to fit into that without modification. The M12K fit that and Clemson 4wd had a pretty good price on them. So, I will now lend my comment to be torn apart by Kyle and others. Will the reaction sway me? No. I do believe that we try to make our vehicles so that they do not get stuck. On top of that, one should not go 4 wheeling by themselves. Thus the others might be able to help if the winch doesn't work. Many of the scenarios that Kyle and the "others" suggest are when one is alone. I would never venture into a dangerous situation without wondering how I can get out. I've done that before, and I have made the call to turn around, although 99.9999% of the time I could have made it. But that 0.0001% is the one that leaves you stuck in a hole with no winch anchor or some other situation which makes every known recovery method obsolete. So, try to think realistically. Max T. You may know contradict me. Besides, where is that poster that says, " Arguing on the internet is like the special olympics, even if you win you are still retarded"?? I think we need that now.   Jonny Posted on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 12:26 am:    In Oz the MM is sold under the name of OX and sold by TJM, but its a 10,000lb and thats at 1100psi. Dont know if they changed anything or just let the 1100 pump pull at 10,000. Anyway will the MM 10,500 fit straight into ARB-D1-Non airbag? I know the mounting holes are the same but will the winch actually fit?   gp (Garrett) Posted on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 09:59 am:    yes Ron. i have it now.