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Garrett #2
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 12:13 pm: | 
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Gotta change the oil tonight and wondered what the preference out there was??? |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 05:15 pm: |
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Well, since nobody else has responded, I'll give it a shot.
Oil: The cheapest stuff that Tractor Supply has in five gallon pails. OK, now I'm using bulk-packed oil in five-gallon pails from a local lubricant distributor. 10W-30.
Filters: I'm currently using Wal-Mart Motorcraft FL-1A. They cost me about $2.50 w/tax.
I'll wait for the flames that we should be using synthetic!
Paul |
Ho Chung (Ho)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 05:17 pm: |
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actually paul, real land rovers leak so much oil, why bother with expensive synthetic? |
Jason Vance (Jason)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 05:38 pm: |
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I bought 3 cases of slick 50. Heck with oil. My journals are spinning in their bearings...and the bearings are spinning in the saddles 'cuz it's so slick in there. Oils are overrated! |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 10:05 pm: |
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I figure that when my truck has leaked a quart, it's time to change the oil. The Land Rover oil change interval! |
Tripp Westbrook (Tripp)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 10:09 am: |
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Ok, I know oil.
PLEASE don't put the really cheap off-brand crap in your engines!!!
The additive packages are weak and the base oils are less refined. You'll end up with dirt, sludge or worse. Especially if you let it go longer than 3k miles.
I'm also not going to recommend a full synthetic. For engines prone to leaking they can actually increase the leaks. It's a case of being too good.
Your best bet is a synthetic blend. They offer greater protection for engines under heavier loads and they have a additives package that can combat any of the dirt and muck you may pick up from the trail.
One other possibility if you're having trouble with leaks is using a High Mileage formula. These actually have conditioners in them for seals and gaskets and work quite well.
boo-yaa |
Garrett #2
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 10:58 am: |
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Thanks Fellas!!
What size wrench do I need for the oil pan drain plug??? That thing is huge and in an awkward place. |
Brian Dickens (Bri)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 11:12 am: |
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Tripp
Can you recommend brands and weights? |
Tripp Westbrook (Tripp)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 12:11 pm: |
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As far as brands go, any of the big four will do just fine. Pennzoil, Valvoline, Castrol or Mobil. Though Mobil's only full synthetic and hugely expensive. (their conventional oil is marginal)
Check out:
Pennzoil High Mileage
Valvoline Max Life
Pennzoil Synthetic Blend
Castrol Synthetic Blend (Syntec?)
Pennzoil seems to have the best variety and highest overall quality, but if you're changing your oil regularly with any of the big four you'll be fine. Of these, buy what's on sale.
The best weights for you will depend on the temperatures you drive in. Generally 10w-30 or 15w-40 should cover you since they cover the widest temperature ranges.
Also, don't believe the myth of not being able to mix synthetic and conventional or that if you go to synth you can never go back. Though you may not want to mix brands since the additives may (or may not) react to one another. It's ok to switch when you change your oil, you just want to avoid mixing between changes. |
Robbie (Robbie)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 12:22 pm: |
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by the way, wrench is 1 1/8" |
jmon
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 01:26 pm: |
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i use valvoline max life 20w-50 and napa gold filter....no complaints |
Paul L
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 06:49 pm: |
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jmon, where do you live? Seems awfully thick for a New England winter, where I'm from. I'm trying to figure out a good winter grade. I usu. use 10W-30 in winter and 10W40 in summer. |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 09:13 pm: |
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Converted my 98 D1 over to the Amsoil dual filter (one full flow and the other is a ultra-fine bypass) system. Went with Amsoil Series 2000 0W30. I'm in Colorado so need 100 deg F in summer and -30 deg F in the winter. Mileage seems to have gone up, it runs smoother, valve train is quiet and no leaks after 4K miles so far. Plan is to leave it in for about a year at a time. Amsoil says 25K miles or 1 year. Prior to the Series 2000 I ran the Amsoil 10W40 so have had synthetics for a while. I don't have the oil leak problems of others. Now my International Scouts :-) are another story.
- Mark |
Tripp Westbrook (Tripp)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 10:19 pm: |
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Amsoil's good stuff. Knew a guy who ran a bus fleet on Amsoil synth. All he ever did was change the filters regularly, never the oil. Didn't need it cause it never degraded. Said he did this for over 200k in his buses.
Didn't mention it cause it's not as widely available. |
Dee
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 12:53 am: |
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On the Amsoil site if you go to
http://www.amsoil.com/products/bf_mount03.htm
the by-pass filter the vehicle pictured is a DI
might have to look into it... |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 09:29 am: |
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Didn't change the oil because it never degraded.
My turn to raise the BS flag.
Might not have degraded, but what about combustion byproducts? What about fuel dilution? |
kyle
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 10:05 am: |
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There ya go Paul and that is the biggest cause of oil degredation.. The oil will become saturated with fuel... If these busses were diesel its even worse. That oil gets pretty beat up pretty damn fast...
Kyle |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 10:19 am: |
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Paul,
The bypass filters to less than one micron while standard filters only capture down to about 25 microns. Plus the bypass is also suppose to capture and hold water. Same technology as the over the road rigs except for size. Amsoil also offers oil analysis and provides a report of oil condition and contaminents. The bypass kit includes a fittiing to sample the oil. So based on your maintenance interval send in a sample and change filters. My oil is relatively close to the original honey color, even after 4K miles.
As to where to mount it, the picture shows the firewall. The D-90 site also includes a how-to write-up. My choice for a D1 was where the bottle jack was stored. Didn't want to mess with relocating the windshield washer container. If I add a second battery I'll deal with it then. Just popped off the intake horn, bent the power steering fluid bracket, drilled and mounted to wall behind headlight, picked a hose route and used adjacent hoses, brackets and tie wraps to keep the oil lines from touching anything.
- Mark |
Dee
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 10:22 am: |
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I dont think Amsoil is a fad or gimic, its been around for many years but the 25k oil change that goes against all common practices, I have never heard anyone complain about quality just the cost.
Looking at the condition of my Disco and all the 3k Dino oil changes that have been performed, It the worst looking engine I've ever striped down, in the heads and valley area lots of crud and residue build up. I cant wait to see how crudded out the sump is, is that my Rover Suprise... |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 10:45 am: |
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Thanx Kyle. In our vehicles, if driven off-road, the "Wear" on the oil is far worse. Just imagine the impact on the oil of low speed, high load, high temperature, high solids loading of the ambient air... Yes, some of the dust from the trail gets into your oil.
My brother in law just had me do an Amsoil fluid change (except ••••••) on his Rangie. the cost- >$100! The cost for me to do a full fluid change-~$15. Go ahead, tell me I'm using junk oil, but, the oils I'm using, come out of a bulk tank that are also dispensed into 55-gallon drums for trade use locally. The labels on the pails read Citgo and have all of the appropriate SAE/API/NLGI certifications that they meet current manufacturer requirements.
What is not known by far too many folks is that much of the oil we buy in the United States is in fact at least partially blended with re-refined oil. What do you think Safety-Kleen does with all of the oil they pick up from all of the DIY shops? Having been to one of their re-refineries, I'm not the least afraid to buy and use re-refined oil-fascinating process. Anybody remember Wolf's Head oil? Real cheap, all re-refined. Also, if you buy the Wal-Mart branded oil, depending upon where in the country you are, it is Safety-Kleen re-refined oil!
Last comment, remember where this stuff comes from and what it is-Dinosaur guts that have sat in the dirt for millenia!
Descending from my soapbox now! |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 10:52 am: |
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Trip,
I too am holding the BS flag with Paul. Dirt, exhaust, and fuel are the main enemies of oil and what determines the frequency of oil changes. Changing filters will not resolve the problem.
You opened by saying "I know oil." Could you qualify that?
Curtis |
Kingfish (Kingfish)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 11:05 am: |
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My buddy tried the extra Amsoil filter thing in his 92 mustang. He's got about 100k on it now and burns about a quart every 500 miles. No substitute for a frequent change. Amsoil pushes the BS limit more than the rest. Always has. |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 01:28 pm: |
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I think most of the misunderstanding about Synthetics vs standard oil goes back to filtering. I don't know how many times I've heard people say "I'm running synthetics so I don't need to change the oil as often". Unless you change the filtering system then you still need to change the oil based on workload and time. Heavy use is 3K miles while with highway driving is probably ok to go 7.5K miles. The purpose of the oil is to lubricate AND suspend contamination from blow-by, air intake and thermal cycling. If you filter out the contamination then you can let the oil stay in longer. That is if you run synthetics. Simply fine filtering standard oil doesn't work because of volatility issues. Synthetics will provide excellent service for 25K miles or more, but only if you have a bypass filtration system. No, I'm not a petroleum engineer, just an electrical engineer, but some of this is just common sense and being 50+ years old. :-)
Mark |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 01:35 pm: |
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And one more issue. The Rover engine does have an issue with sludge build-up. I don't know the specific cause but venting, coking from high heat and contamination are probably all contributors. I know a guy who works on over-the-road trucks that says he can tell you what oil your using by looking at the inside of the oil filler cap. All oils are not made the same. I've also seen the inside of valve covers for both synthetic and standard oil cars, the valve cover with the synthetic oil was clean and shiney while the standard oil cover was dark with oil deposits. Now putting two and two together - I'm running synthetics in a Rover engine.
Mark |
Tripp Westbrook (Tripp)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 02:23 pm: |
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Ok, let me separate two things.
One, the story I told was what the guy told me. I didn't see proof, but hey, they were his busses. Mark is correct about synthetics. They won't break down, but they will become contaminated. Hence the need for good, regular filtration. Conventional oil on the other hand, will lose viscosity over time and exposure to high heat in addition to becomming contaminated. Hence the need to change.
Second, the "I know oil" thing. I've spent the last three years doing consulting work for Pennzoil. I've had access to their R&D people, testing results and competitive evaluations. All for the purpose of strategic positioning and marketing. |
Kyle
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 02:28 pm: |
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arketing ? lol , That isnt exactly facts there , thats what they want you to take as fact.... 
Kyle |
Tripp Westbrook (Tripp)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 03:04 pm: |
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Ok, I knew that would come up.
Don't you know you have to know the truth in order to construct the spin?
Seriously though, their engineers are good honest guys and freely admit what's better than their products. I've also overseen tons of independant data.
Hell, these oil companies are so litigious they can't even claim to have farted with out eight verified, notarized qualitative testing results. |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 03:46 pm: |
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OK, let's talk filtering for a minute. We have raised a number of issues from water to fuel to oil to combustion byproducts.
The filters we use in our vehicles will only remove solid contaminants, not the dissolved chemical contaminants. OK, yes, there are some that will change their solubilities as time goes on and eventually precipitate out, but for the most part things like the mineral acids (anybody want to give a guess as to where things like sulfuric acid comes from?) and fuel diluents will dissolve and chemically degrade the oils and the things the oils are to lubricate. Conventional filtration (I don't care how small the pores) is unable to separate these materials (acids, fuel, etc.) from the oil. As a result, merely changing the filter will not remove these contaminants, nor (shit, lost train of thought!). Anyway, you must also renew the oil to remove these deleterious compounds that have been formed through the combustion process.
Now, that said, many years ago, my father invested heavily in a company that built a device for heavy-duty trucks (semis, etc.). These devices were supposedly a mini-refinery you strapped to the side of your truck that heated up the oil and distilled the bad stuff out. Sounds like a good idea, but it was about as effective as the Tornado. I believe that my father ended up owning the only production of these things as he was the only one who bought the idea. I remember when we threw them out!
Change your oil and filter at the manufacturer's suggested interval, or sooner!
I really expected to get flamed about the recycled oil!
Paul |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 04:20 pm: |
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Paul,
I used to run a Harvard filter because the filter stud was the same as the road trucks. If I had a filter problem the solution was the nearest truck stop. Here's a clip from the last paragraph on the page noted below:
"FILTER EFFECTIVENESS
The center research confirmed that the Harvard brand filter removes the vast majority of particles in the 5 to 40 micron range resulting in reduced wear on machine and engine surfaces. Harvard filters also remove silting particles down to 1 micron in size eliminating problems such as bore polishing. In addition, the filters absorb water and anti-freeze, eliminating such problems as oxidation and sludge formation."
Amsoil and Harvard bypass filters are pretty much the same. The acids you speak of are the combination of oil, fuel, water and heat. Remove water from the equation and the acid formation is reduced.
http://www.machinecare.com/harvard_filters.html
- Mark |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 04:31 pm: |
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Not necessarily. The removal of water only reduces the incidences of the formation of mineral acids, and not all of the destructive acids are inorganics. There are any of a number of organic acids that are also formed that can be every bit as detrimental as the inorganics. Also, some of the combustion by-products are by definition water! and Carbon Dioxide. Put fire and gasoline and oil together and all kinds of nifty reactions will take place-oh yeah, don't forget the catalytic action of all those cool metals there too! Remember that some of us think life started with ammonia, methane and a spark!
A filter capable of removing ethylene glycol and not removing oil would be pretty expensive, as would a filter that could remove a noticeable amount of water (the old hydrophobic/hydrophilic debate). In order to remove a noticeable amount of water, the filters would have to be huge!
Remembering the filters my dad bought, the marketing literature also told you why their filters were better and how great these filters were in comparison.
I used to wave my freak flag (wave it wide and high!). For today, I'll continue to wave my BS flag! |
nick
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 08:56 pm: |
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What weight does Mobil 1 come in ? The only one I can find is 5 or 10w-30 I think.Is there anything a bit thicker out there,and also if you use a blend as opposed to full synthetic won't you get the sludge build up that regular oil is said to produce? Also if regular oil has been used up until now will the switch to synthetic be ok?(96 D1 55,000 miles) |
perroneford
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 09:01 pm: |
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I use Mobil 1 20w50
-P |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 10:19 pm: |
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Paul,
We are probably both right. While the bypass filter will absorb water and filter very fine particles, there is still contaminents in all oil that has been run more than 1 mile. I just figure that running amsoil and a bypass filter is a cheap investment for today's expensive engines. Plus I have seen the benefits of synthetic. As a point of reference I just rebuilt my 75 International Scout 345 V8 engine at about 350,000 miles. Never was apart prior to that. Ran on good standard oil. But it was an International and they are made for very heavy duty in a commercial service environment.
- Mark |
Paul T. Schram (Paulschram)
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 09:15 am: |
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Mark:
An ex-girlfriend's father was VP of engineering for Harvester (I live in Fort Wayne, the home of the scout-Solihull to IH owners-LOL). He once told me of the hot rod 345's he built when new at Harvester and the messes he had to clean up in the dyno room when they exploded. He built one that ran almost 1000 HP for about ten minutes. He ran one at 500 HP for a week before it exploded. Those engines were built to be run forever with no maintenance.
If you look closely at the Scout, I'm sure you see many parallels between the Scout and the Rover. In many cases, the shared engineering vision is apparent-long life, ease of repair and low maintenance.
I personally won't run the synthetics given my high mileage driving and desire to change my oil every 3000 miles-most of it on dusty county roads (I can make it almost all the way to work with only a few miles on concrete!). There is no way I could afford a $100 fluid change every three weeks. I can afford to change all of my fluids every three weeks using dino oil and inexpensive filters. My brother in law's Rangie on the other hand, we were discussing his need for new calipers at his next 30K service-he expects this to be in about five years! At that rate, he can afford to use synthetics and change his oil annually.
Paul |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 10:20 am: |
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1000 HP out of a 345 !!! I'm surprise it lasted 10 minutes. The engine weighs 750 lbs with a max rpm of 3800 rpms. Stock form I think they are about 177 hp. Bet that was a mess to clean up.
When I went looking for a new vehicle I had been driving Scouts for years. The Discovery is a very close match, 100" wheel base, V8, 4500 lbs, ... Both have an agricultural base.
- Mark |
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