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Jim
| | Posted on Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 11:28 pm: | 
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I have been off roading twice now with LR groups. I have a stock Disco II as do most of the others, there are always a couple of Defender 90s along with the group with off road tires. All of the stock Disco drivers are amateurs. The Defenders get stuck more than the stock Discos. Why? I thought the Defenders were the ultimate off roaders. Is the defender harder to drive? Or is it a better off roading machine only after you through a ton of money into it? |
Clif Ashley (Cta586)
| | Posted on Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 11:38 pm: |
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I would imagine that the 90 guys are taking tougher lines or different obstacles. Usually there is more than one option on a trail. Other than that there is no way to know. Your experience I would say is not common. |
perroneford
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 12:23 am: |
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Maybe it's the traction control vs. none that's making the difference?
-P |
ken
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 02:02 am: |
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Also most 90's are manuel trans where as most disco's are not try wheeling with a manuel it's a lot harder then a auto, more going on at once.
Ken |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 12:42 pm: |
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There is really no such thing as the "ultimate off roader". There are four wheels on terra firma no matter what rig you are in. The stock D90 has better approach and departure angles than a Disco with a shorter wheelbase. After that it is all driver.
My guess is that the D90 guys are going through much tougher stuff than the Disco guys. That has been my experience. Either that or the D90's you run with have terrbile drivers... |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 12:48 pm: |
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LOL. The Disco and the D90 are terrible offroaders. In fact, all trucks are. They just site there and show no initiative to hit the trails. It's only when a human starts them up, hits the gas pedal, and steers them to the trails that they have the potential to become the ultimate offroaders. Yellow paint, big beadlocked knobbies, and good clearance and angles do not the ultimate offroader make. |
Kim S (Roverine)
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 01:33 pm: |
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hmmmm, kind of curious. My limited observations are the Defender (as previously stated above) has better approach and departure angles than the D2 (I have a D2 as well). For me, lol, that is probably one of my favorite aspects of the Defender. (My "station wagon" gets it's tush bruised a little more, lol) Assuming they are driving open diff (no front or rear lockers), my guess would be traction control, tougher obstacles, manual trans, and the drivers, the combination of everything mentioned above. I gotta say, though, I've seen plenty of good drivers successfully take open diff's in places you wouldn't believe. 
Kim |
R. B. Bailey (Rover50987)
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 03:14 pm: |
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Think about it though, the Camel Trophy and Trek Discos (and Defenders) where pretty much stock. Sure they had upgraded suspension (to carry extra wieght,) nice roof racks, mud tires, and a winch, but compared to what people do to their Jeeps, and Toyotas, they were stock! And look what they could do!! That's why people really think their Discos and other Rovers are the best, because right off the factory line (other than a Hummer I) they proabably are the best. (Although the NEW G-500 and Toyotas you can buy with Diff locks straight from the factory are great. But it has taken everyone else a long time to catch up to Land Rover.)
I think the Defenders are getting stuck more just because of the fact that they probably do go into spots a little more Helter-skelter, and they are usually manuals with no traction control.
http://landrover.mrbaileyshistory.net |
Moe (Moe)
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 03:29 pm: |
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To echo other posts . . . it depends on who is behind the wheel.
There is stock D90 in town that I have been out with quite a bit. When I am out with Chris I am happy to be lifted and locked in the rear, as he handles the 90 very well. |
Ed H
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 08:19 pm: |
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What is the advantage to offroading with a manuel tran? Is there any at all? |
R. B. Bailey (Rover50987)
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 08:23 pm: |
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Well, my 77hp Series IIa is geared lower than my Disco I. I really can "coast" down a 35 degree hill. With the Disco, I pick up a little speed on the same hill. |
tricky 130TD5
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 01:28 am: |
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Ever try and do a stall recovery on an auto? Manual wins hands down for most 4wheeling except sand. |
R. B. Bailey (Rover50987)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 03:01 am: |
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Yes, but what about left foot braking? - all but impossible with a stick. It has gotten me up many hills and out of many cross axled situations in my Disco with sagging stock suspension and bald Firestone A/T's. |
M. K. Watson (Lrover94)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 05:57 am: |
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stall recovery...hmmmmm....thats an interesting avenue to venture down...anyone ever stall their auto?
just a stirring the pot.
mike w |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 08:04 am: |
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Yes, I have Mike. Actually I've heard of a lot of folks stalling their autos. In my case it stalls when I go down a steep hill. I know that Adrian S stalls when he goes up a steep hill. Now, obviously this should not happen on any auto but we drive Land Rovers.....go figure
I prefer the auto over the manual when off-roading.
John C.
'88 RRC Auto
'96 D1 Auto
'85 CJ7 4speed |
Rans
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 08:20 am: |
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Mr Bailey...
You said "Although the NEW G-500 and..."
Just wanted you to know that the G-wagon is not new, not by a logn shot. It's been around quite a while! It may seem new to you because this is the first year Mercedes has "officially" imported it. All the others were "grey" models. |
leegoldsmith
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 10:19 am: |
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In regards to manual vs. auto, people should pick whatever the heck they want but to say that a manual is perhaps better offroad just because of stall recovery is obsurd. If your truck is stalling in any condition I'd say you need to fix that problem and then do an accurate comparison. I have an auto with a t-case crawler kit. This is my preferred setup. |
brian friend
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 10:22 am: |
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If your auto is stalling up hills I'd check your steppor. Had the same problem....frustrating as hell, but cleaned the steppor motor and everything is good to go. i havn't stalled in 6 months regaurdless of the grade. No power starts for me.
Brian Friend |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 10:34 am: |
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That's why people really think their Discos and other Rovers are the best, because right off the factory line (other than a Hummer I) they proabably are the best
Hummer I best? Where do you wheel? Unless I have a need to mount a large gun on my vehicle I think the Hummer is an over rated POS for the conditions I drive in. And I think it's a POS for most conditions with trees. I wish I had that picture of the Jeep (TJ/YJ) recovering the Hummer that was high centered in NJ.
In no order vehicles that I think are better than the H1 off the lot for the wheeling I do are...
D90/D110
Jeep TJ (Rubicon edition)
G-Wagon (SWB/LWB)
Disco 1 (D2 would be if it wasn't for the CDL issue and ass end) |
Jim
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 11:10 am: |
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Well�. The Defenders took the same lines as the Discos we were all traveling in a row. I think the Discos are more advanced and easer to drive and that makes them better for off road for beginners, myself included. The auto trans and the traction control do make life simpler. I can understand the advantage of manual for offloading, for an advanced driver. I have to say it must have been embarrassing for the big bad Defender drivers to keep getting stuck around all of the stock Discos some with soccer stickers in the rear window. |
R. B. Bailey (Rover50987)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 01:00 pm: |
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About the Hummer - exactly right! That is why the U.S. Army Rangers switched to the Defender 110's after Somalia (See Blackhawk Down and my web site "Rover Family" page to see why.) The Hummer can't fit anywhere! But you just can't beat the individual gearing on each wheel, semi-lock diffs in front and back along with a fully locking diff in the center coupled with gearing control computer as a traction control system, the diesel, and bullet proof construction. The point is - no civilian needs a Hummer - no civilian can buy one in full mil. specs.
Everyone needs (and could use) a Defender 110 though - that's probably the only car I would trade my Disco for.
As for the G-500, yes they have been around for a while, that is why I said "new" as opposed to the "old". The new G-500 is (I believe) the first car sold in America with factory standard locking diffs on the front, center, and rear.
Yes, Discos are more advanced. The traction control on these new cars really does make a difference! And I think auto is better, and so does the off road section of Land Rover Owner International, March 02, pg. 88-91.
And on pg. 11 regarding Traction Control, "...I didn't think I'd ever see the day when a Range Rover on standard road tyres could get through where a Defender on mud tyres would fail..."
The Brits are jealous of all our autos, and we are jealous of all thier diesels.
All this said though, my '65 IIa with original springs and shocks has been everywhere my Disco I has gone with little or no trouble.
http://landrover.mrbaileyshistory.net |
niall forbes (Forbesn)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 08:14 pm: |
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I suspect that given otherwise identical vehicles, a skilled driver would do better with a manual in most conditions. Perhaps not. However, for the majority of drivers, I think an auto will be easier and you will do better. One big difference that I have noticed is lack of feedback. I find it much much easier to tell when a wheel is starting to slip in a manual than in an auto. The lack of gear selection crontrol of many autos is also a disadvantage. In the end, the difference is probably minimal once you're used to one system or the other. I'm switching from a non-synchro manual to an auto. I think I'll do better and be easier on my gear, given the terrain I drive in and my driving skill. I have no qualms about taking a manual in the woods though. Different strokes for different folks. |
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