Hand Winches?????

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Author Message   Zak Ruck (Zak) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 04:01 pm:    I'd love to have a TJM or ARB bar with a nice winch, but money is a little tight after buying sliders from RTE, and a Hi-Lift from Ho and trying to figure out how to buy Greg's rack, I'd like to have some sort of winch. I know that the Hi-Lift can be used as one, but how well does it work? And are there any nice hand winches out there. I like the Black Rat, and I've found a "comealong" that has a 8000lb limit, but haven't found to much else. I saw the comealong in a 4x4 mag, just can't remember which one. Any thoughts??? Thanks again, Z   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 04:05 pm:    zak, how much is a black rat?   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 04:11 pm:    Most hand winches that are suitable for winching a vehicle costs as much as some of the 8000-9000# electric winches out there. You can use the Hi-Lift if it's a 60" jack. Don't bother with the 48". Even with the 60" it's a PITA but it will get you home. You'll need a tree saver, a couple of transport chains and the winch adapter from Hi-Lift is helpful. If you don't want to carry the transport chains you can get some winch rope (not winch cable) and it will work too. Then put the money from the hand winch into a bumper then save up for the winch. The bumper will also serve as a jacking/winch point.   Glenn Guinto (Glenn) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 04:14 pm:    They're somewhat pricey (hand winch). IMO, if you have the $$$ to buy the Black Rat, I'd postpone the purchase and save up some more for an electric winch (or PTO). Bill Burke has articles in his sight on using the hi-lift as a winch. It pretty much act like a hand winch. Just make sure you're using "reliable" HD tow straps. Safety first! -glenn   Greg P. (Gparrish) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 04:17 pm:    Or, put the money towards my rack. hehehe Greg   Zak Ruck (Zak) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 04:17 pm:    A black rat WINCH costs around $360 for one that can handle 7000Lb with the line doubled. An ordinary black rat from a pet store is quite a bit cheaper, maybe a few dollars. Ho is such a smart a$#   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 04:18 pm:    Tow straps won't work Glenn... well they'll work but not very well since they strech too much. I'm sure that article from Bill Burke mentions that. I don't know much about the Black Rat but the Tifor winches are also popular in some places. AB sells them. http://www.roverparts.com/product_list.asp?c=&sc1=%2D+All+%2D&c1=%2D+All+%2D&type=&v=&r1=ALL&a1=ON&d1=ON&i1=ON&p1=1&Bookmark=22   Greg P. (Gparrish) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 04:19 pm:    Zak, if you buy the rack.......... heck, I'll even get you a "black rat".......... of course the cage and feeding duty is up to you. gp and no returns on the "live" merchandise.   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 04:22 pm:    I *think* Tifor IS the Black Rat, just different labelling..... FWIW... -L   Zak Ruck (Zak) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 04:24 pm:    Thanks for the offer Greg, No need anymore for rats, sold my 10ft Burmese Python a few years back. Just to large and to nasty for me. LOL Come on, I know you want to trade for a real nice large format color plotter/printer!!!!! Or how about a nice handgun!!! Hey Greg, You still interested in giving me a hard installing the sliders??? That way i can get a nice look at your rack!!!   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 04:27 pm:    You still interested in giving me a hard installing the sliders??? That way i can get a nice look at your rack!! ROFLMAO... I don't even want to know.   Greg P. (Gparrish) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 04:32 pm:    Well, Zak, I will offer a hand installing the sliders. If "hard" is involved, I'm pretty sure you're gonna be on your own. I'm the king at offering chair based technical support over a few beers. When r u thinking of installing them? Maybe Mr. Morgan would be inclined to help also. He rides a support chair pretty well too.   Moe (Moe) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 07:40 pm:    These fellas make a very sturdy puller which can work as back up winch or when a second line is needed. I would stay away from the 3-ton unit, as the 2-ton with extra line is likely to be more versatile and the differences between the two are very small. Here at Evans Creek Hak needed some help. It looks like they have the puller set with a single line.   Zak Ruck (Zak) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 08:14 pm:    OOps, nice mix of words there!!!!! Sorry Greg, meant hand. The sliders should be in this week. I'm hoping to install them over the weekend, preferably Sunday. How is htat for you??? Al, got to love the use of Rack and Hard in the same sentence!!!!   Greg P. (Gparrish) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 08:33 pm:    I might could help on sunday. How far is Warrington from me? Paul will be tied up then, but I don't have plans yet. I have stuff going on Friday, Saturday and Monday, but not Sunday so far. I probably have the Rack sold, Zak, sorry. The original person that responded is letting me know in the morning for sure and I'll be meeting him on Monday with the rack.   adtoolco Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 09:56 pm:    I bought a nice handwinch from keeneengineering.com It is solid iron and is rated for a 4000lb lift and 8000lb pull. I replaced the handle with a longer solid 1 inch bar...the stock handle is real cheap. I have used it multiple times and love it!!!! It is a great alternative to using the high lift as a winch...which looks like a royal pain in the ass...nice for jacking mind you but not really designed to pull. I'm sure it does the job but I prefer my handwinch. Some more nice things about the winch is it has a 40 foot cable(not bad), comes with a snatch block(essential for hand pullers) and saves your battery for important things like starting the motor:-) Oh yeah it is much, much lighter than the electrics. Start adding bumpers,batteries and this and that, you real do save alot of weight. Lastly, it cost me under $200. It was my best buy to date.(besides my safari roof rack for $400...sometimes you get luckey) -Chris   Markd1x2 (Markd1x2) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 10:25 pm:    Zak, I know this isn't about your pulling issue... but I called John @ Rovertym today ( since I hadn't heard from him for a week or more) and he said the sliders will be shipping in the next few days. I'm going to his place Thurs. to get mine... it will save me part of the $60+ for shipping and he's going to give me some installation pointers. He says I don't really need the long (8") drill bit. Too bad about the rack!... some deals don't pan out. I too am holding off on the heavy front bumper thing. All the extras are great but you did fine with your stocker at GWNF. How quickly the niceties become the necessities ! It would be nice to have that extra confidence of being able to get out of more trouble ... but then again why get into those spots in the first place. I'm tempted to make some observations about what others do ..... but that would be counterintelligent. I hope Pam and the baby are doing well. Mark   Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 10:51 pm:    I just checked out the site recomended by Moe. Looks like the same winch I bought but $60 cheaper. I have the model# 2-35. I agree with Moe, it is the more versatile model. Buy one, you will not regret it. -Chris   Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 09:10 am:    The black rat type has a long pull - as long as you want to buy the line, but they typically come with 60 feet. The nice thing about this type, apart from the length, is the thick cable (7/16 I think) which has almost no chance of failing. I've extracted myself out of quite deep mud holes with one. Dean   Zak Ruck (Zak) Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 09:43 am:    Dean, Aren't there a few pics of your using your rat in the barrens, pulling yourself out of some "whale shit"?? Thanks for all the info, I'm not sure which one i'll get, but i'd like to have something. Greg, I should double check with Tom at RTE to make sure they will be here by the weekend. I'll let you know. THanksf for the help. I hope the other guy buys that rack, htat way i won't have to figure out a way to get it. Mark, Pam and the growing baby are great. She's having some bad morning sickness, actually it usually last all day, but she's really excited. She's upset though that i'm going wheelin' in sept and she can't go. Oh well. i'm also thinking about getting the same rack you have from AB. It's about the same price as Greg rack. I really liked yours though. We'll see. Actually, you NEED a different one, and you can sell me your!!!!!   Moe (Moe) Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 11:14 am:    "I replaced the handle with a longer solid 1 inch bar...the stock handle is real cheap" Chris, you do realize that the light flimsy handle they supply is designed to bend and break before any other components on the puller? By using a stronger handle you might be in for more complicated failures and field repairs. Just something to keep in mind. Also, your model is probably the #2-40 which is not listed on the site but they do make special orders for individuals and distriubters. Glad to hear it has been working for you   Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 01:27 pm:    Zak - the only one I have is this: http://www.discoweb.org/barrens505/image003.jpg   charlie Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 02:01 pm:    What is the main different between black rat and the puller discussed above besides they look different? It seems the puller discussed above will do whatever the black rat can do and cost a lot cheaper. ---Charlie   Zak Ruck (Zak) Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 02:35 pm:    I found one like the one's above, the come a long type, on a T%^&%A Land Cruiser parts website, that is only $54. Not sure if i'd trust that one. Doesn't look strong enough either. Although they have a pretty nice kit for using a multi mount warn winch. Who knows? I'll have to fork out some cash for one of them.   Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 08:05 pm:    Moe, I added the longer bar for a little more ease in the pull. I am real confident in this piece of hardware, with a little common sense I should keep it functioning without breaking it. I want to add I bought it for cost saving as eventually I would like to add the heavy electric winch and all that you need for it to work effectivly, but until then I wheel confidently knowing my little iron buddy is in the back of my Disco.(I checked the box it came in and yup, its the #2-40) Charlie, I havn't seen a black rat in person but from what I've read the differences are cable length and width( 5/16" at 35' vs. 7/16" at 66' for the "rat" and it is rated at a 7000lb pull vs. 8000lb for #2-35. Oh yea, the price $125 vs. $360. Go with the #2-35 and winch cable extentions and save yourself $200. Zak, I have seen the winch you are refering to. Its made of stamped metal and it is cheap, literaly and figuratively, I wouldn't trust it either. -Chris   Marc Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 09:05 am:    Guys the Black Rat and Tirfor are the same type, but they are COMPLETELY different animals than the MorePowerPuller. The MorePowerPuller is simply a VERY beefy come-along. It is very tough and a good peice of equipment. The Balck Rat and Tirfor seem to be identical, but I dont think they are made by the same company. These don't "wind up" the wire rope on a spool, they "inch along" the wire rope. See here: http://www.terrainmaster.com/tirfor_winches.html   JB Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 09:20 am:    A highlift with staps and chains and shackles is much more useful. Handle can be used as a persuader on bolts and to sleve/ straighten the tie rod. It lifts and it works great as a winch and it is sturdy. I would NOT trust that powerpull gizmo to winch a foot up a rock face with all theat weight, maybe out of a level mud hole but not much else - I have seen 3 come alongs break in the last year. Highlift can be hard work but it is cheap and strong and reliable and versatile.   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 11:36 am:    JB While I'm with you on the the Hi-Lift the Tifor and other winches they're talking about are much better than the come alongs you generally see out there. I personally don't like the idea of spending several hundred dollars for a hand winch. I have an electric winch but my hi-lift has been, by far, the most useful piece of recovery equiptment I own. And I do carry all the gear to use it as a winch as a backup to my electric winch. The hi-lift's ability to clamp, push, pull and lift has served itself very well. I've even used it to unseat a tire to fix a leaky bead.   Zak Ruck (Zak) Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 04:32 pm:    THanks again for all the info. I still do not have a recovery bag in the back of hte truck so I'll have to start putting one together. What should go it? 2" straps, roper, chains, etc? And what lengths? Sorry for all the questions. Greg, I just called John at RTE, and he's shipping out the sliders today, so they won't get here until next week, so Sunday is out. How is next weekend for you?   Shane C. (Qsiguy) Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 05:31 pm:    Don't laugh! Check out this portable 12 volt winch. Could be a cheap backup or first winch. It's on sale at my local store for $49.99. Never used one and I'm sure it's not really high quality but for $50 I think I'll pick one up. They also have several hand powered winches too that you all may want to check out. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=43331 Shane   JB Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 05:46 pm:    I was just about to post that same crappy winch link ...too funny!!! They have some cheap cheap 'stuff' don't they.. Did you see the $20 4-ton come along - might as well have a crappy back-up too...   Shane C. (Qsiguy) Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 05:55 pm:    LOL, I love Harbor Freight! I am curious to see if the winch is worth the trouble, but I'm too cheap to spring for a nice winch so what the heck. Yes, I did see the other come alongs and hand winches. I'll have to go down and check them out at the store. Many of the cheap stuff is only good for a few uses but you gotta love the prices. Shane   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 08:54 pm:    Guys... you're working with cables under heavy load here and a 2 1/2 ton truck if it's empty. Most of us can run trucks up to 3 tons with all our gear and fuel. Add some mud or an incline and you've just increased the weight you're pulling. And you want to get some cheap recovery gear then put yourself in the way of that cable? Please check your AD&D policy to be sure it's up to date. I'm all for saving a buck or two but there is a limit. I know some of you are only joking about this stuff but I don't want to see someone go out and get killed over a few dollars. ::: This concludes our public service announcement :::   isaac fain (Searover) Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 01:51 am:    al - i have many of your same concerns. these are what brought me to buy amsteel for the hand winch instead of chain. having said that, I've also wondered several times how much you can really load up the line with a hand operated winch. 8K is a lot of load, and I'd be surprised if I had the arms to put that kind of tension on it. i have the 14.4k rated line, 8k jack, and the obligatory 4-3/4 ton "D" shackles. I've only had the opportunity to try this setup out once. when a jeeper showed up behind me, I threw him the strap and un-rigged so we could both move on i like the looks of the drum style manual winch - that is a new one on me. I think if your rigging and line is set at the right safety factor, and you're clear of the load when winching that this could be used safely, and effectively. my question on the power pull here is what the safety fuse is - I'd hate to think of the clutch mechanism grenading under 4k of stress with me standing over it. with the jack-all type jacks, the pin simply breaks and your truck falls back into the mud ;) fwiw - isaac   OTTO Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 03:20 am:    HI ZACKRACK!!! Forget all these shitty Harborfreight winches!!! A Handwinch is very easy to handel.You can use it at front and back.The only shitty is that it "makes you strong like Arnold Schwarzenegger" Look at this Website: www.landroverclub.net/club/HTML/Recovery_Tirfor1.htm. greatings from good old Germany -OTTO-   adtoolco Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 08:59 am:    It seems that some on this board are biased towards the Powerpull for whatever reason. As an owner of one I must restate, it is an impressive piece of equipment. Made of solid maleable iron, not stamped out of sheet metal, it is sturdy. With the line doubled it provides almost 18 feet of pulling length, enough to get you out of most tough spots. The ratcheting mechanism is a double pawl design, very strong. This piece of iron has yet to let me down. Now, is it better than an electric? In some ways, but overall, no. Is it a good alternative to own as your only recovery tool? (or back up, batteries have been known to fail) Yes. I am in no means blind to the fact that it might break, but under certain conditions anything will break. If you plan on buying one, do it, you will not regret it. Remember common sence is always part of the equation. Oh yea, at the price they are selling this thing for, I plan on buying a second, total investment around $300. Tag teaming this thing will definitly get me out of any rough spot. -Chris   muskyman Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 10:24 am:    hey my bad idea is not as bad as his bad idea so leave me alone waa waa waa anything short of a well set up bumper or reciever mounted electric or hydraulic is crap i have used all kinds of hand winches from 2ton come-alongs to 6ton double pawl style cast iron boat anchors...and all i have seen is they work but waste precious wheeling time ....nothing worse then spending all day getting a truck outa something my MM hydraulic could handle in less then a few minuts. in for a dime(true offroad 4x4)...in for a dollar(real recovery equipment)   adtoolco Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 12:19 pm:    Well muskyman, how well endowed you are. For the rest of us who would like other mods first or don't have the $$$ for a bumper,winch, and battery. a little extra time to pull oneself out is a small price to pay. Sorry I wasted your time trying to help Zak out. -Chris   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 12:31 pm:    Time *shouldn't* be much of an issue. This is how people and equipment get damaged. Anyway, if you're in a convoy then you have other vehicles to help you get out and in most cases a recovery strap will do the job quicker than a winch. If you're alone then what's the rush? I've already said I don't like the come alongs. For a backup winch I would rather have a hi-lift since it's a multi purpose tool. It's one less thing to buy and one less thing to have to carry.